The Tragedy of Faithless Church Leaders

[tapi]

Most likely, if I have found any edification with Fr Heers, you would paint me as a heretic unworthy of the Orthodox faith - at least this is how you come across.

Of course not. You have gotten this backwards, as it is not me who is calling anyone a heretic or unworthy of the faith, but Heers and his ilk. And not only heretics, but blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. I think for such a charge, people should only expect that some feathers be ruffled and these men challenged for their outrageous accusations.

In regard to edification, none of us are right, or wrong on all counts. Heers however, is known for his extreme ideas and even more than him, some of the "Elders" featured on his channels. Due the the high density of problematic materials, I would not recommend any of his stuff to anyone, but there are, of course, some good bits in it for sure.

 

[Hermit76]

Of course not. You have gotten this backwards, as it is not me who is calling anyone a heretic or unworthy of the faith, but Heers and his ilk. And not only heretics, but blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. I think for such a charge, people should only expect that some feathers be ruffled and these men challenged for their outrageous accusations.

In regard to edification, none of us are right, or wrong on all counts. Heers however, is known for his extreme ideas and even more than him, some of the "Elders" featured on his channels. Due the the high density of problematic materials, I would not recommend any of his stuff to anyone, but the are, of course, some good bits in it for sure.

You deny calling anyone unworthy of the faith but in the same sentence refer to priests as "ilk." We have words for your type here in Appalachia and none of them are "ilk."

Why don't you answer my question. You seem to have the power to discern what is appropriate for a husband but won't reveal from what experiences you draw this wisdom.

 

[tapi]

You deny calling anyone unworthy of the faith but in the same sentence refer to priests as "ilk." We have words for your type here in Appalachia and none of them are "ilk."

Why don't you answer my question. You seem to have the power to discern what is appropriate for a husband but won't reveal from what experiences you draw this wisdom.

I do confess that I have little respect for the spiritual wisdom of these men, for in their teaching I see little of it. I do, however, respect their priesthood and in an official context would treat them accordingly. That is in no way a statement on their faith, which I believe to be strong but greatly misguided on some topics, to the disturbance of the inner life of the Church.

My point on the sacraments was simply to assert that I see little chance of this particular individual discarding continuous participation in the liturgical life and the sacraments, it has nothing to do with what a husband should, or should not, do.

 

[Hermit76]

I do confess that I have little respect for the spiritual wisdom of these men, for in their teaching I see little of it. I do, however, respect their priesthood and in an official context would treat them accordingly. That is in no way a statement on their faith, which I believe to be strong but greatly misguided on some topics, to the disturbance of the inner life of the Church.

My point on the sacraments was simply to assert that I see little chance of this particular individual discarding continuous participation in the liturgical life and the sacraments, it has nothing to do with what a husband should, or should not, do.

Withdrawn and finished with this

 

[peregrinus2017]

Might I suggest that everyone take a deep breath? This Sunday coming up is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee, the beginning of the Lenten Triodion, time for us to start preparing ourselves for the fast. I expect that it is going to be a challenging season for most of us.

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

 

[Antoni]

Not quite. I was more referring to your incapability/unwillingness to address the madness found in the article. Or maybe you agree with it. Whatever the case, I disagree and deem it unfit of priestly dignity. You are free to disagree, of course.

I see you as a well-intentioned, well-meaning, good-hearted priest. I am a much lesser man. But I am saddened whenever I see insanity and division perpetuated and spread, and not taken a stand against by those with a pastoral vocation. Of course, just my opinion.

Had you truly believed yourself to be a much lesser man, you would keep to yourself your criticisms of priests. I assure you, God does not need you to save the Church from what you perceive to be misguided ordained priests. You would do better to work on your own failing and passions instead of accusing others who have served God, sacrificed more, and put themselves at much greater risk than an anonymous poster on an Internet forum does.

 

[Hermit76]

It is all well and good to call for peace. However the continual attack and disrespect for priests on here is not an issue of unrighteous anger. It is not too much to call out such behavior. It is neither unforgiveness nor sinfulness in which Tapi has been addressed. The time of our liturgical year changes nothing. I personally hold no regrets for addressing this.

 

[tapi]

Had you truly believed yourself to be a much lesser man, you would keep to yourself your criticisms of priests. I assure you, God does not need you to save the Church from what you perceive to be misguided ordained priests. You would do better to work on your own failing and passions instead of accusing others who have served God, sacrificed more, and put themselves at much greater risk than an anonymous poster on an Internet forum does.

This view is simply nonsensical. Any highly problematic public teaching, especially novel innovations and the incitement of division within the Church (NOT referring to anything by Fr. Matt here), can and should be criticized in full measure, regardless of the source.

And yes, I do believe myself a much lesser man than Fr. Matt and and acknowledge that my own person has great failings, sins, and problems. Nevertheless, that does not mean I can not refute folks who charge the Church at large with blasphemy.

 

[Hermit76]

This view is simply nonsensical. Any highly problematic public teaching, especially novel innovations and the incitement of division within the Church (NOT referring to anything by Fr. Matt here), can and should be criticized in full measure, regardless of the source.

And yes, I do believe myself a much lesser man than Fr. Matt and and acknowledge that my own person has great failings, sins, and problems. Nevertheless, that does not mean I can not refute folks who charge the Church at large with blasphemy.

I thought you didn't refer to priests as Father on here.

 

[Antoni]

This view is simply nonsensical. Any highly problematic public teaching, especially novel innovations and the incitement of division within the Church (NOT referring to anything by Fr. Matt here), can and should be criticized in full measure, regardless of the source.

And yes, I do believe myself a much lesser man than Fr. Matt and and acknowledge that my own person has great failings, sins, and problems. Nevertheless, that does not mean I can not refute folks who charge the Church at large with blasphemy.

Please spare me the false humility. A humble person would spend more time in silence than thinking they they know what teachings are problematic, novel, or in error and criticize priests.

If you wish to debate such things and point out what you believe is wrong and right, you are free to do (anonymously even). But to claim humility at the same time is simply a farce.

 

[tapi]

Please spare me the false humility. A humble person would spend more time in silence than thinking they they know what teachings are problematic, novel, or in error and criticize priests.

If you wish to debate such things and point out what you believe is wrong and right, you are free to do (anonymously even). But to claim humility at the same time is simply a farce.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

 

[Ezana]

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Great. Please do the same with Fr. Heers and, seeing as we are sufficiently familiar with them by now, keep the regurgitated points of contention to yourself next time.

…

A brother asked Poemen, "How ought I to behave in my cell in the place where I live?" He answered, "Be as prudent as a stranger; and wherever you are, do not expect your words to be taken seriously when you speak, and you will find peace."

He also said, "If a man stays in his own place, he will not be troubled."

 

[tapi]

Great. Please do the same with Fr. Heers and, seeing as we are sufficiently familiar with it at this point, keep the regurgitated points of contention to yourself next time.

Certainly I shall do that, as soon as he stops accusing the Church of faithlessness, blasphemy and heresy.

 

[prodromos]

Certainly I shall do that, as soon as he stops accusing the Church of faithlessness, blasphemy and heresy.

Where has Fr Peter done this?

 

[tapi]

Where has Fr Peter done this?

Just a few examples:

In the Orthodox Church - whether or not all understand this or act upon it, of even if nearly all are ignorant of it and fall away from it - it is at least faithlessness, if not worse (God forbid!), blasphemy, to treat the Holy Things of the Holy Temple - consecrated and set apart by and in God! - as common, that is, as we would and do in the supermarket, bank or post office. Therefore, it is a fall away from this self-understanding, this experience of God’s Grace, this Way of Being in Christ, to bring into the Holy Temple, as into a common place, masks, gloves, multiple spoons (for fear of communicating viruses) and the like.

Heers, comment on critique by Fr. Lawrence Farley Fr. Lawrence Farley. Snake Handling

Can anyone tell us that this stance [grasping the supernatural dimensions of the Divine services] is possible when they are wearing a mask and seeing everyone - even the priest in the ALTAR! - wearing a mask? What does the mask symbolize and mean if not falseness, sickness, and the fruits of sin?

Heers, ON MASKS IN THE TEMPLE, and especially on the FACES OF CLERGY.
Fr. Peter Alban Heers

"The temple is a God-protected place. It is guarded by God. And of course, we know this from the service of the consecration of a church, wherein we ask the All-Holy, Triune God with awesome words, and we say that God sends down His Holy Spirit. In this service of the consecration the hierarch says for example, “This house was built by the Father. This house was made firm by the Son. This house was renewed by the Holy Spirit, Who illumineth and upholdeth and sanctifieth.” And then we all kneel together, and the hierarch says, “Send down Thy Holy Spirit and sanctify this house. Fill it with unending Light”, the uncreated, eternal light of God. “Choose it as Thy habitation.” Is it possible, then, in the house of God, for God for permit us to be harmed, to become infected? Even if some sick person enters in, there is no chance of him transmitting illness to another! All that is being said today about us maintaining a distance of 1,5 to 2 meters lest we infect, this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Interview of am. Savvas Agiorite by Peter Heers. The quote is by Savvas, but in the foreword, Heers states he agrees with these points and exhorts the faithful to adopt this stance.) https://oe-transcripts.now.sh/data/ep16/transcript.pdf

 

[SalemsConcordance]

Of course not. You have gotten this backwards, as it is not me who is calling anyone a heretic or unworthy of the faith, but Heers and his ilk. And not only heretics, but blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. I think for such a charge, people should only expect that some feathers be ruffled and these men challenged for their outrageous accusations.

Forgive me, I many times spit venom when I am not watchful of my self. I would appreciate references to point me in better directions - in the few videos (recent ones) I’ve had issue of a video of an Elder saying anathema against those who do not kiss the icons - and I stopped watching, because that is too much for me.

So I understand your thematic concern? But what I have not seen is Fr Heers directly say what you say. Even that is less relevant because I don’t watch him much .

But if you say he is extreme, then where are the holy Elders and ascetics who endorse masks and multiple spoons and covered icons? Where are the Elders who support the secular authorities shutting down churches? Who agree with Bishops forbidding parish priests to visit homes?

If Fr Heer is an extreme position help educate me instead of making me feel like I have to defend him because I myself bitr my tongue not for my sake but for the honor of the church with Bishops and Patriarchs saying blasphemy. One Metropoltan said in a YouTube last year that “Orthodox Christians are always speaking of God this, God that, but the Buddhist, and the Jews, they stay quiet and are peaceful. Perhaps we can learn something from them and learn to be quiet about God.”
Disgusting, but I pray for mercy on him and don’t spread it around, even when he comes up a lot.

so help me out here, point me in directions that are edifying.

Lord bless you Tapi.

forgive also sloppy writing it is late.

 

[tapi]

Forgive me, I many times spit venom when I am not watchful of my self. I would appreciate references to point me in better directions - in the few videos (recent ones) I’ve had issue of a video of an Elder saying anathema against those who do not kiss the icons - and I stopped watching, because that is too much for me.

So I understand your thematic concern? But what I have not seen is Fr Heers directly say what you say. Even that is less relevant because I don’t watch him much .

But if you say he is extreme, then where are the holy Elders and ascetics who endorse masks and multiple spoons and covered icons? Where are the Elders who support the secular authorities shutting down churches? Who agree with Bishops forbidding parish priests to visit homes?

If Fr Heer is an extreme position help educate me instead of making me feel like I have to defend him because I myself bitr my tongue not for my sake but for the honor of the church with Bishops and Patriarchs saying blasphemy. One Metropoltan said in a YouTube last year that “Orthodox Christians are always speaking of God this, God that, but the Buddhist, and the Jews, they stay quiet and are peaceful. Perhaps we can learn something from them and learn to be quiet about God.”
Disgusting, but I pray for mercy on him and don’t spread it around, even when he comes up a lot.

so help me out here, point me in directions that are edifying.

Lord bless you Tapi.

forgive also sloppy writing it is late.

No problem, thanks for your kind message, it is nice to hear a friendly tone for a change.

What I deem crucial to understand is that the oversight of the Church is not entrusted to random monastics, ascetics, or priests, but to the bishops of the Church, working collegially as a synod. This has been the standard of action for nearly 2000 years. In regard to ascetics, they usually mind their own business, which is to pray for the salvation of the whole world. This is true in regard to COVID: for example, there have been no protests raised by major monasteries or for example the community of Mount Athos in opposition to the decisions of the bishops.

Nevertheless, some individuals from the ranks of monks and clergy have posited grave charges against the sanitary measures employed by all of the autocephalous Churches. If we would take the accusations of these, surely well-meaning but misguided, monastics and priests who are a super-minority within the Church, at face value, the consequence would be that all the jurisdictions would have largely fallen to mass apostasy, blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and fallen outside the possibility of salvation.

Now, as a general tendency, it is always a major red flag whenever a very small group of individuals claim to know better than whole synods of bishops, autocephalous Churches, or in this case, even the whole worldwide Orthodox Church at large (!). Such an attitude is characteristic of the various schismatics, the ranks of which I hope none of the perpetrators of the current issues join.

As an example of an edifying take, put out against the very problems discussed in this thread, I would point you to the archpastoral letter of Met. Joseph (Antiochian Archdiocese, USA), accessible here: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

Thank you and God bless you.

 

[Platina]

I also greatly doubt that he, having emphasized that "for the health of the body.. [can we] put of the health of the soul.. no, not even for one day, not even minute" would cut himself and his family off from consistant participation in the sacraments due to an illness in the family (which of course, is a sad event), being unable to serve or participate in the mysteries in GOC territory.

And now you're moving the goal posts. There's a difference between him serving the Liturgy and him communing. The Russian Church did not break communion with the Greek Church. There is no problem with them participating in the sacramental life there.

The rest of your post is nonsense. You think 1.5 years is too long, but what canon are you referring to? You realize priests can even be loaned out to other jurisdictions for years on end without actually changing jurisdictions? There is nothing demanding that he switch bishops because he is temporarily in Greece for the sake of his wife's health. You seem to have no awareness that emergencies happen, extraordinary circumstances happen in life, and they don't fit into the cookie cutter you envision. Sowwy.

 

[prodromos]

Just a few examples:

Heers, comment on critique by Fr. Lawrence Farley Fr. Lawrence Farley. Snake Handling

Heers, ON MASKS IN THE TEMPLE, and especially on the FACES OF CLERGY.
Fr. Peter Alban Heers

Interview of am. Savvas Agiorite by Peter Heers. The quote is by Savvas, but in the foreword, Heers states he agrees with these points and exhorts the faithful to adopt this stance.) https://oe-transcripts.now.sh/data/ep16/transcript.pdf

I find that I am in complete agreement with the above, and believe it is due to faithlessness. He doesn’t accuse the majority of the Church of blasphemy as you claim. As I read his comment he says if it isn't due to faithlessness then it would be a deliberate act which would no doubt be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The prayers for the consecration of the Temple are not much different from the prayers during the service of Holy Communion. Do we ask God to send down His Holy Spirit on the bread and the wine to change them into Christ's body and blood, only to then take the view that maybe they did change, or maybe they didn't. It might be Christ's flesh and blood or it might not be. Would this not be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

I also note that he hasn't accused most of the Church with the charge of heresy as you claimed.

Throughout the history of the Church, when people have faith, God's Grace abounds. When people don't have faith, God draws back. I desperately need God's Grace so I cling to what has been faithfully passed down in the Church through the ages. We drink Holy Water in the morning, we receive Holy Communion as often as our spiritual father recommends and we ask St Nikiphoros to pray for our protection from this virus.

 

[prodromos]

Now, as a general tendency, it is always a major red flag whenever a very small group of individuals claim to know better than whole synods of bishops, autocephalous Churches, or in this case, even the whole worldwide Orthodox Church at large (!).

St Mark of Ephesus.
St Athanasius.