Presbyterian Continuist

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Forgive me, brother Oscarr, for not being Pentecostal about it all. :rolleyes:
Hahaha! Don't be put off by that. I left the Pentecostal church in 1978, although I retain the continuous part of it. I don't subscribe to mainstream Charismatic stuff, because it is so mixed up with false teaching, prophecy, and out of control kundalini manifestations.

No, my foundational theology is Puritan, but without the unconditional election and predestination bit. I believe that faith in the promises of God for salvation comes first, then once those are settled in our hearts, we can know that our election is confirmed.
 
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PloverWing

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Genesis presents the dispersion of human language as historical narrative. Since Genesis 11: 1-9 is not a representation of historical fact, the doctrine of inspiration (as well as inerrancy) is untenable.

Please feel free to object to my claim and discuss. I had to start the conversation somewhere. A clear reading of the text seems to indicate historical narrative as opposed to Hebraic Poetry or other literary devices; if you disagree let me know what literary device you think is more likely.

I'm not convinced that the stories in the early chapters of Genesis were intended by the writers to be literal history. They might well be stories akin to Jesus' parables, in which he tells fictional stories about a sower of seeds or a woman with a lost coin to make a spiritual point. When the compilers of Genesis were deciding which stories to include, they didn't necessarily know that 21st century readers would insist that only historical accounts were worthy of inclusion; evidently, the Tower of Babel story was important to the Jewish people, so they preserved it in their collection of writings.

Inspiration doesn't have to require inerrancy; it depends on what you mean by "inspiration". If you mean something like "Early Jews and Christians experienced God, and wrote down those experiences in the Old and New Testaments, and God still speaks to us today through those writings" -- that can be true even if the Scriptures aren't inerrant.
 
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Caliban

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The research into the origins of the traditional Mandarin Chinese language is interesting, because it is a picture language, and the researchers have found that some of the pictorials in the language show simplified scenes from Genesis. It seems that when the language was originally put into written form, the Genesis accounts, including the Tower of Babel were fresh in their memories. The thing about the traditional Chinese language is that Chinese culture, because they were isolated from the rest of the world, it was not merged with any other culture, and so the language remained as it was when it first originated, while English is a mixture of Saxon, Viking, and French language forms.
Here's a good link for consideration:
Chinese Characters and Genesis
When I first read this post I was excited but, then I saw the the AiG citation. I have to admit, it discourages me. Can you supply a more reliable source. I hate to offend but, I don't accept that source as reputable.
 
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Caliban

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I'm not convinced that the stories in the early chapters of Genesis were intended by the writers to be literal history. They might well be stories akin to Jesus' parables, in which he tells fictional stories about a sower of seeds or a woman with a lost coin to make a spiritual point. When the compilers of Genesis were deciding which stories to include, they didn't necessarily know that 21st century readers would insist that only historical accounts were worthy of inclusion; evidently, the Tower of Babel story was important to the Jewish people, so they preserved it in their collection of writings.

Inspiration doesn't have to require inerrancy; it depends on what you mean by "inspiration". If you mean something like "Early Jews and Christians experienced God, and wrote down those experiences in the Old and New Testaments, and God still speaks to us today through those writings" -- that can be true even if the Scriptures aren't inerrant.
I'm interested in more of your perspective. I do not think the text reflects true historical events but, I can't help identifying the natural reading of the text which presents as historical narrative. I am open to another reading.
 
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Caliban

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Inerrancy has always been an additive word within Christian Theology, superfluous to any seeming need for assurance on the part of the faithful. However, I'm inclined to still keep a basic sense of inspiration around to describe the nature of the biblical writings, even those that are culturally and time bound like the Flood and the Tower of Babel stories. Besides, it's not as if the biblical writers themselves actually went into any detail to explain just what inspiration could amount to. At best, we find a few epistemic traces scattered here and there in the bible by which we might attempt to derive and surmise what the Israelite/Jewish people otherwise generally took for granted.

As for your second paragraph, I don't think it's so clear for anyone that the text in question was intended to be either Hebraic poetry or historical narrative of a nature that we'd recognize it by today's historical methods. But, that's ok. Why would we expect it to be anyway?
I think the text lends presents as historical narrative. I mentioned Hebraic Poetry because, although I do not thing such a reading issues naturally from the text, I anticipate other will have another perspective from me and suggest textual evidence to support their claim. I'm just open to other reading that challenge my own.

I know that many people in the Christian tradition do not subscribe to the doctrine of inerrancy (defined by the Chicago Statement). But, in the U.S., there is an Evangelical saturation of teaching on the matter of historical, literal interpretation of the book of Genesis. One of the reasons I created this thread is to unearth other perspectives.
 
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Caliban

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In support of your post:
When Jesus gave the story of the rich man and Lazarus. When the rich man asked Abraham to sent Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers "not to come to this horrible place", Abraham told him that they have Moses and the Prophets, and if they won't believe them, then even someone going back from the dead won't convince them of anything.

This shows me that Jesus believed that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and that he wrote them under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and therefore what was written was absolutely true and factual. Therefore, if Jesus believed that Genesis was a true historical record, who am I to say anything different?

To me, it would be the utmost blasphemy to say that Jesus was mistaken or lying about it.
But if the facts of Genesis are incorrect, and they demonstrably are, isn't that an indictment on the rest of the biblical text? Including the the Gospels account of Jesus words?
 
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Coady

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I anticipate other will have another perspective from me
1 Corinthians 1:25 "...the foolishness of God is wiser than men" and
1 Corinthians 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written,
He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."
 
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Theophilus2019

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I think we read more into the Tower of Babel account than God intended. Gen. 10 makes clear that before Babel different tribes spoke different languages. Commentators point out that the Hebrew word used in the Babel account in Gen. 11 is different to that in Gen. 10, being more like “voice” so it more likely means something like our modern “they all spoke with one mind,” i.e. they agreed on something. Its also commonly accepted that when the Bible says “the whole world” it doesn’t necessarily mean the entire global population. In context it can mean something like “all the world I know” or even “lots of people,” like our loose modern use of “everywhere” e.g. in “Ive looked everywhere.” So the Babel account could mean lots of people agreed to build a big tower, but God brought disagreement on them. I’ve read that as a principle of Biblical interpretation, if you come to an interpretation that makes the Bible look ridiculous you’ve probably got it wrong. Hope all that helps the debate!
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Sanoy

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Please feel free to object to my claim and discuss. .
This is the "exploring Christianity" section. Not the apologetic section. Counter apologetics should be made "here".

As far as the change in language, it's still in effect and can be seen today. You said it yourself, language evolved. I live in a America and I can drive a few hours and meet English speaking people that I can't understand. There is some tendency in humans to corrupt their language between differing identities.
 
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The research into the origins of the traditional Mandarin Chinese language is interesting, because it is a picture language, and the researchers have found that some of the pictorials in the language show simplified scenes from Genesis. It seems that when the language was originally put into written form, the Genesis accounts, including the Tower of Babel were fresh in their memories. The thing about the traditional Chinese language is that Chinese culture, because they were isolated from the rest of the world, it was not merged with any other culture, and so the language remained as it was when it first originated, while English is a mixture of Saxon, Viking, and French language forms.
Here's a good link for consideration:
Chinese Characters and Genesis
I think you need to read up a bit more on 'Chinese'. Chinese isn't one language but a family of many, often mutually unintelligible, languages. Chinese has changed enormously over time through contact with other languages/cultures and the normal change processes common to any language.

OB
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think the text lends presents as historical narrative. I mentioned Hebraic Poetry because, although I do not thing such a reading issues naturally from the text, I anticipate other will have another perspective from me and suggest textual evidence to support their claim. I'm just open to other reading that challenge my own.
It could be that those earliest text in Genesis, like that containing the Tower of Babel story, were meant to be 'just' historical narrative, but I think if anyone actually delves into the Philosophy of History and the Historiography of ancient Israelite/Jewish texts, then we're going to see that it is something just a little different. Personally, I think the literature we find in the first 11 chapters of Genesis--at the least--are Theology, written as a Historicized Hebrew Genealogy and Law. It's not like any kind of history writing that we do today and those persons who are eager to disprove the Bible also like to easily dismiss what I'm saying.

I know that many people in the Christian tradition do not subscribe to the doctrine of inerrancy (defined by the Chicago Statement). But, in the U.S., there is an Evangelical saturation of teaching on the matter of historical, literal interpretation of the book of Genesis. One of the reasons I created this thread is to unearth other perspectives.
Yeah, well, I think you can find some alternatives to this easily enough if you look. I know I did, and I'll be happy to reference them for you if you so wish. It's not like Straight-laced, U.S. Evangelicalism is the only game in town.
 
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Caliban

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1 Corinthians 1:25 "...the foolishness of God is wiser than men" and
1 Corinthians 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written,
He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."
This is off topic. Please have something constructive to add.
 
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Caliban

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It could be that those earliest text in Genesis, like that containing the Tower of Babel story, were meant to be 'just' historical narrative, but I think if anyone actually delves into the Philosophy of History and the Historiography of ancient Israelite/Jewish texts, then we're going to see that it is something just a little different. Personally, I think the literature we find in the first 11 chapters of Genesis--at the least--are Theology, written as a Historicized Hebrew Genealogy and Law. It's not like any kind of history writing that we do today and those persons who are eager to disprove the Bible also like to easily dismiss what I'm saying.

Yeah, well, I think you can find some alternatives to this easily enough if you look. I know I did, and I'll be happy to reference them for you if you so wish. It's not like Straight-laced, U.S. Evangelicalism is the only game in town.
I am aware of other lenses to read Genesis. I have read John Waltons work on the Creation Story as temple building, as well as, Peter Enns perspective and a few others. I personally find their arguments anachronistic. Walton may have the stronger case but, I'm still convinced the text reads as Historical Narrative.
 
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I am aware of other lenses to read Genesis. I have read John Waltons work on the Creation Story as temple building, as well as, Peter Enns perspective and a few others. I personally find their arguments anachronistic. Walton may have the stronger case but, I'm still convinced the text reads as Historical Narrative.

And here I was about to apply your frame of reference to it the same way: as anachronistic. :dontcare:
 
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Caliban

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This is the "exploring Christianity" section. Not the apologetic section. Counter apologetics should be made "here".
As far as the change in language, it's still in effect and can be seen today. You said it yourself, language evolved. I live in a America and I can drive a few hours and meet English speaking people that I can't understand. There is some tendency in humans to corrupt their language between differing identities.
A am posing a thesis to get conversation going about this topic. I am interested in dialogue, not counter apologetics.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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A am posing a thesis to get conversation going about this topic. I am interested in dialogue, not counter apologetics.

What does "dialogue" mean to you? I have to ask because it seems that you're quite confident already in your position and have little need to explore any further possibilities.
 
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Caliban

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What does "dialogue" mean to you? I have ask because it seems that you're quite confident already in your position and have little need to explore any further possibilities.
I am confident so fas as this is my current perspective. I might place a confidence level at 80 out of 100. I am here to explore other possibilities and discuss. The thesis is admittedly controversial but, thats what a thesis typically is. I think Gen. 11 is Historical Narrative. I think that is the plain reading of the text. If that is the case, I think it has negative implications for the claim that the source text is inspired. But, I'm here to have my mind changed. I know a lot of people see it differently.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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But if the facts of Genesis are incorrect, and they demonstrably are, isn't that an indictment on the rest of the biblical text? Including the the Gospels account of Jesus words?

I know your response above was directed to someone else, but in adding my own two-cents, I'd say "no" and I've already given my perspective on this to two or three Fundamentalists challengers over in the following section. What I told them in relation to the creation and flood accounts I think also applies to the Tower of Babel account:

Creation & Theistic Evolution
 
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