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The TITHES

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by alex2165, May 4, 2015.

  1. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    If you are giving to your parents then that is the same as tithing in my opinion .. See Jesus teaching on corban ..
     
  2. stormdancer0

    stormdancer0 Do not be so open-minded that your brain falls out

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    "None of the verses you presented meant money, but the support in food, shelter, clothing, and in other things that could help the needy MISSIONARY to do his MISSIONARY work."

    Gotta make one more comment. So pastors should only get support in food, shelter and clothing? What do you think the salary is for?

    Nimrod
     
  3. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I give on my own accord, that's all there is to it. Tithing is just one of the many names for it.

    If I get invited to a church, I give some.

    I have no problems with giving and I still give (to my parents who tithe some of it to their church and also distribute some to our poor relatives) even when I'm not affiliated with any church.

    I give to help a bit our poor relatives. I'm not well off myself either. Our living conditions is like prison, the salary is just good enough by 3rd world standards.

    But other than helping to make the world a better place to everyone, I don't wish to give any more rules to giving like you give only to people who works their keep. I don't follow that rule.

    Because some people are too disabled or too weak to work and probably heartbroken too. In some cultures there exists heavy discrimination against one gender or the minority.

    I know Apostle Paul taught that we only ought to give to those who did their jobs. But it's just not fair. Perhaps, many of you here could easily find and hold a job and take pleasure from work at the same time, while some endure deplorable conditions just to make ends meet, even some lose their lives, drowning at sea trying to get decent lives for their families.

    There's huge huge inequality of work opportunities to people across the world. If we withhold our generosity to those who really are too weak or too discriminated by the world, too broken up to work. We are practically telling such people to find the tallest bridge and jump off it and commit suicide. This is the way of the world, it's no different than what many heathens already do! As true Christians we must dare to be different!

    This is why Jesus did not teach what Paul taught regarding giving and Jesus indiscriminately gave free food to everyone.

    Paul taught things which does not differentiate you from a heathen. It makes you one of them. Abandoning the different teachings of Paul really took me to the next level of my relationship with God. Things happening that are just unbelievable like suddenly, you become plugged in to the universe!


    Sorry for going a bit off-topic.

    But here's my stand on the topic. If you hear someone preaching the truth, do what is right. If you see the preacher struggling to make ends meet, what do you do??

    As for the preacher. Trust in God only (I'm not speaking of the dollar bill!). It's for your own benefit if you did, no matter what trouble it may lead you in.

    You don't have to preach giving because if people will only give if you preach them about generosity, then their money is worthless. The only help that is of worth is help from a giver who has love in his or her heart even if that's only a few coins..
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  4. stormdancer0

    stormdancer0 Do not be so open-minded that your brain falls out

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    One of the problems with not believing Paul's writings are scripture is that Jesus preached almost exclusively to the Jews. One time a Gentile woman asked for help, he called her a dog.

    But Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. It is through HIS work that we are all believers.
     
  5. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Jesus did not directly called the woman dog. Also the dog was was possibly a reference to Anubis and Anput. The God and Goddess of Egypt. Anput was synonymous to the "Trinitry of Goddesses of Egypt" - Ma'at, Isis, and Hathor.

    Also the Jews are not literally that tiny state of Israel in the middle East, they are scattered all over the world among cultures and many have lost their lineage.

    Also, the term Gentile, doesn't mean a non-Jew. A Gentile is synonymous to being called "worldly" or adopting the ways of the world or nations.... A Gentile is not a racial distinction but rather one's beliefs and ways.

    This means the state of Israel in the middle East have become Gentiles themselves by establishing a nation in this world.


    The Word was NEVER meant for Gentiles - this is like throwing pearls to pigs as Jesus told. They will corrupt the the Word.

    I'm not saying that we should shut our mouths when Gentiles are around. Gentiles are allowed to hear the Word but we are not commanded to deliberately preach the Word to them.

    Paul did a great job at undermining almost everything that Jesus started.
     
  6. alex2165

    alex2165 Newbie

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    Hi Timewerx.

    I would like ask you a question.

    To which Pauline you were referring to?

    And, to which denomination you belong?
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The issue is intended to be internal and not legal. People easily spend 10% of their income on wasted expenses that don't enhance the life of others. The goal is to see how much other people can be helped with the gifts you have been given and for the first cut of your blessings to go to help others. With such a focus, you should be able to thrive on less of your bounty, especially if others watch over your needs as well.
     
  8. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Apostle Paul and those who prioritize the teachings of Apostle Paul over Christ if the teachings present conflicting ideas.
     
  9. A New World

    A New World Member

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    I know I'm off topic for this thread, but it appears to be headed in this direction.

    Do you believe Luke's account of the appearance of Jesus at the conversion and commission of Paul?

    "As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do"(Acts 9:3-6)

    Do you believe Luke's account of this appearance of Jesus to Ananias?

    "And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ" (Acts 9:17-20,22)

    Was Luke a lying imposter?

    If Luke was credible both Saul/Paul and Ananias had legitimate encounters with Jesus Christ the Lord. If you accept Jesus you should also accept those Jesus raised up to build and establish the church.

    I will stand with Jesus, Luke, Paul and Ananias.
     
  10. Simon Peter

    Simon Peter 14th Generation PROTESTant

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    Thread has been hijacked. Please start a new thread to debate Pauline theology.

    It was mostly the wealthy who tithed in the ot and nt.
    Only those who owned large flocks or owned crops tithed.
     
  11. A New World

    A New World Member

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    Very well, I'll add a relative comment. After all, that's the reason I visited this thread.

    My understanding is, under the Old Covenant, eleven tribes paid tithes to one tribe. It was a "Levitical tithe."

    After the tithe, each the eleven tribes lived on 90% of their earnings. The one tribe, the Levites, received 110% of the total earnings (11 tribes x 10%=110%).

    Israel also collected a temple tax that supported the temple system itself. According to Scripture, the tithe went exclusively to the Levites: "Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting" (Num. 18:21).

    This was a unique system that served the nation of Israel.

    I don't see how this system translates to our modern churches. Under a similar system, if a church has 12 families/tribes (12x3 members/family/tribe=36 total), 11 laity and 1 pastoral, the pastor's family would receive 110% of the laity's total income.

    So, if the average income of the laity is 50,000/yr (the average median income in the U.S.), a total income of 550,000/yr, the pastor's family would earn 55,000/yr from the tithe. That would leave the laity with a net average of 45,000/yr per family. Then, like Israel, the members would also pay a tax for the daily operation of the church. I guess that's not unreasonable.

    But, what happens when the congregation totals 120 families (360 members total)?

    Using the same averages, the total income of the church would amount to 5.5 million/yr. This means the pastoral staff would receive 550,000/yr. If the church included 10 pastors and their families, each family would receive 55,000/yr. But, would you need 10 pastoral families for a church of 360 members?

    Though I'd guess the average church membership is maybe around 200 or 300 or less, what happens when a church has 3,000 or 4,000 or even more members?

    I think it's obvious that the church was never intended to operate on a tithing/tax system similar to that required of national Israel. It would be, and has proven to be inconsistent, unenforceable, unmanageable and a recipe for corruption.

    If God intended that system to carry over into the New Covenant age of the church, wouldn't we see attention given to tithing and tax laws in the NT and associated punishments for disobedience?

    Local churches are supported by those who agree with their particular doctrines and those whose needs are met by each church. And, unfortunately, they're also supported by those who've been taught that they are required to pay an obsolete unbiblical tithe.
     
  12. Simon Peter

    Simon Peter 14th Generation PROTESTant

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    The Levitical Tithe was very clear that it was only the tenth of any newborn livestock and a tenth of the increase of any crops.
    Flocks and crops ONLY.

    The only people who tithed were:
    1. Landowners/farmers (not their workmen) who had reaped a crop.
    2. Flock owners (not their shepherds) who had more than 9 newborn livestock in a season, and it was the tenth that was given, not the first.
    Labourers did not tithe.
    Soldiers did not tithe.
    Fishermen did not tithe.
    Scribes did not tithe.
    Carpenters did not tithe.
    et al.

    This Tithe did not go to the temple, it went to Levites who lived all over Israel.
    The OT Levitical tithe was to compensate Levites because they had no inheritance in the land.
    Levites had normal jobs like everyone else, Levites only worked in the Temple 2 weeks a year.

    The OT Levitical tithe is the best support for modern church tithing that Pastors can come up with, but it's fabricated and false.
     
  13. A New World

    A New World Member

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    It certainly is easier to preach tithes and require it of the members than to earn wages by working hard and being accountable.

    The modern church tithe system not only robs the members, it does a disservice to the pastors. It has the potential of creating lazy and possibly corrupt people who may otherwise be honest. A voluntary offering system would set everyone free.

    The reason modern leaders get away with fleecing the flock today is their sheep are largely ignorant of God's Word. If the laity rely mainly on the clergy for biblical teaching I guess they all deserve what they end up getting.
     
  14. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I agree with you both.

    However, it was Apostle Paul who stressed the need to give back to the preachers. Apostle Paul did not call it tithing but it's basically a similar thing.

    I don't really disagree with preachers receiving "gifts" (which obviously includes money) as I'd like to call it.

    You can give gifts to preachers of Truth and there's nothing bad about it but good...

    What I disagree with is preachers stressing the need to give back their keep. If you agree with me on this concept, then, you would also disagree with Apostle Paul because the idea originated from Paul for the New Testament times.
     
  15. A New World

    A New World Member

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    I agree with Paul. I believe he was commissioned by Jesus to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. His teachings are an extension of Christ's ministry.
     
  16. Simon Peter

    Simon Peter 14th Generation PROTESTant

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    If it's similar, then you are saying that most believers should not tithe.
    Because most of God's people were not required to tithe in the OT.


    Simon
     
  17. Lauren1023

    Lauren1023 New Member

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    I agree with a lot of OP's general assertions. Nothing leaves a more sour taste in your mouth than hearing a pastor spend an entire sermon talking about tithing. You can just imagine that they just had their budgeting meeting the week before, or the pastor wants a raise or something. I also think that when you see these pastors that are so disgustingly rich it does a lot of harm to the gospel and how others view Christians. To me, I see it as a worse sin than many of the other sins that they pick apart. If you are invested in the church, and you'd like to give willingly, then that's great, but it shouldn't be pushed as such a set in stone number.

    It's a shame that many churches are more about looks and pizzazz and the numbers than reaching people to become more than just surface level Christians and have a genuine relationship with Christ and their fellow neighbors in and outside of the church building.
     
  18. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I'll make it simple.....

    It's okay to give, to be generous to anyone, including preachers and churches.

    What's wrong is to indoctrinate people that generosity is required.

    Because a time will come to anyone, a situation given and they will have to make a choice.


    It's okay to ask for financial help also to get something done or fixed or to help people in distress.... But that's about it, no need to sugarcoat, justify, make people feel guilty if they don't give.

    I'm not trying to justify greed. I skipped a "full life", still have no family of my own, no house, no car at the age of 33. I live like a poor so I can give most of my salary to my old parents and to our poor relatives.
     
  19. A New World

    A New World Member

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    I haven't done any independent research yet but I have a few questions about your assertion that it was only farmers and those with livestock who were required to tithe.

    Can you share your sources?

    And,
    If the Levites only received crops and livestock how did they support themselves and their families regarding their other needs?

    It seems they were totally dependent on the other eleven tribes for their entire livelihood.
     
  20. Simon Peter

    Simon Peter 14th Generation PROTESTant

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    My sources: The Bible.

    Like I said earlier, Levites had jobs just like everyone else. They lived all over Israel, and worked in the Temple only 2 weeks a year.
    The Tithe was because Levites had no inheritance in the land. Levites were not allowed to own land. This was the only reason for the Levitical tithe: To compensate them for the fact they were the only tribe not allowed to own land in Israel. This is one of the reasons that the Tithe was the fruit of the land: Flocks and crops ONLY.

    Simon
     
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