The Timing of the Rapture

Humble_Disciple

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If the pretribulation rapture weren't contrary to the plain meaning of scripture and the post-tribulation rapture premillennialism taught in the early church, I'd probably be a dispensationalist.

The Anabaptists, the historical forerunners of the Baptist faith, believed in premillenialism but not a pre-tribulation rapture, which would have gone against their ethos to endure suffering and persecution in love for Christ.

What did Jesus actually teach regarding the timing of the rapture?

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Jesus promised to rapture His disciples who endured to the end of the tribulation, not bail them out before anything bad happens. Imagine if Stephen and the apostles had expected to be raptured.

Matthew 24
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
 
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Hammster

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If the pretribulation rapture weren't contrary to the plain meaning of scripture and the post-tribulation rapture premillennialism taught in the early church, I'd probably be a dispensationalist.

The Anabaptists, the historical forerunners of the Baptist faith, believed in premillenialism but not a pre-tribulation rapture, which would have gone against their ethos to endure suffering and persecution in love for Christ.

What did Jesus actually teach regarding the timing of the rapture?

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Jesus promised to rapture His disciples who endured to the end of the tribulation, not bail them out before anything bad happens. Imagine if Stephen and the apostles had expected to be raptured.

Matthew 24
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
There is no rapture. The bulk of Matt 24 has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Christ’s return.

That's the rapture, that Christians who are living will meet Jesus in the air at Christ's return. According to historical premillenialism, this happens at the end of the great tribulation.

Dispensationalism, on the other hand, teaches two second comings, one for Christians before the rapture and another at the end.
 
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Hammster

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That's the rapture, that Christians who are living will meet Jesus in the air at Christ's return. According to historical premillenialism, this happens at the end of the great tribulation.

Dispensationalism, on the other hand, teaches two second comings, one for Christians before the rapture and another at the end.
You can call it a rapture, but it has nothing to do with a tribulation. And nothing to do with Matt 24. When Christ returns, that’s it.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Humble_Disciple

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Right, I hold to the view that there is one Rapture that is unexpected that happens sometime before the Middle of the Tribulation (But could happen before the Tribulation altogether), and then there is a second event (not a Rapture) but it is a taking up by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation. This is because Matthew 24 is clearly talking about the Middle of the Tribulation. If you were to carefully read my posts above, you would see that this confirmed by Scripture in numerous places. To suggest that Matthew 24 happens at the end of the tribulation is simply not looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word clearly.

Does this mean there are two second comings, like in dispensationalism?
 
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Hammster

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Sunshinee777

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Does this mean there are two second comings, like in dispensationalism?

Is dispensationalism that interpretation where there is 3 years of sorrow then after that 1000 yr kingdom of God on earth where saints rule with God? New Jerusalem?
 
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I removed my posts because I just recently discovered I was not allowed to debate or discuss alternate views of Eschatology in this section of the forums.

Anyways, may God bless you all.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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If the pretribulation rapture weren't contrary to the plain meaning of scripture and the post-tribulation rapture premillennialism taught in the early church, I'd probably be a dispensationalist.

The Anabaptists, the historical forerunners of the Baptist faith, believed in premillenialism but not a pre-tribulation rapture, which would have gone against their ethos to endure suffering and persecution in love for Christ.

What did Jesus actually teach regarding the timing of the rapture?

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Jesus promised to rapture His disciples who endured to the end of the tribulation, not bail them out before anything bad happens. Imagine if Stephen and the apostles had expected to be raptured.

Matthew 24
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

The rapture will happen just before the 7 year Great Tribulation. The born again Christians will be raptured, everyone else, including people who think are Christians but never were will be left behind. Like in the parable of 10 virgins from Matthew 25. The kingdom of Heaven will be like 10 virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish...since it's called the kingdom of Heaven it means that the kingdom of Heaven will have both wise and foolish. The wise are called like this, because they put Jesus first in their life, the foolish loved earthly treasures more, so they are left behind, so they have another chance to repent, but they will have to face the antichrist. In first half of the great tribulation, the antichrist will sign a false peace treaty with Israel, and he will be after all the left behind Christians who refuse the mark of the beast and antichrist. The antichrist will kill all of them.

Then in the second half of the great tribulation, the antichrist will go to Jerusalem, sit down in the temple and proclaim himself a God. God will then open Israel's eyes who will see this is the antichrist and they will kick him out of there. The antichrist will get angry and gather all the armies of the world in order to attack Israel. Once they come to Israel, God will pour His Spirit on Israel and they will finally repent who they pierced, and then Jesus will return to Earth. Jesus won't return to Earth, until a chosen remnant of Israel won't repent, as this is a condition.

Luke 23 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Hosea 5:15 says the same ‘I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.’

Zechariah 1210 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

So Jesus won't return until Israel repents. And Israel won't repent until the antichrist and 7 year great tribulation period. And the great tribulation won't happen until the rapture, which can happen anytime now, since Israel is back.

Post-tribulation rapture makes no sense. What would be the point? Why would we be raptured to clouds just to come back to Earth? Jesus said in John 14 that He will go to His Father's house and prepare a place for us, then come back and take us there. But if the rapture was post-tribulation He would not take us anywhere, we would stay here on Earth for a millennium reign of Christ. Furthermore, Jesus said He will come like a thief. What does a thief do? Steal. Jesus will 'steal' His bride, but as it is with thief, you won't notice a thief was in your house, until you find something missing, so it will be with the rapture.

More evidence:
Zechariah 14:4 talks about that the Lord’s feet will stand on Mount of Olives when He returns, the same prophecy as the angels gave that we see in Acts 1:6. ‘On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.’ The Lord comes to Mount of Olives and all the holy will be with Him. No one gets raptured then?

Zechariah 14:6-7 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.’ And Luke 17:34 ‘I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.’

When Jesus Christ comes back to Mount of Olives it will be neither day nor night, but when the Lord comes into clouds Luke 17:34 says ‘that night’. So in Luke Lord doesn’t talk about His return to Mount of Olives because that day will be neither day nor night. The Lord was talking about completely another day. And He began with the words ‘that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.


When the Lord returns on Mount of Olives, He will return as the King of all kings. And He will take the Holy people with Him. When He descends to clouds, He will come as a Groom for His Bride. On Mount of Olives, He will wear a crown of a King, but when He descends to clouds, He will wear a headband of a Groom. There’s a big difference in this. In when He descends into the clouds to pick up His Bride, and when He descends to ground as a King of kings with His armies wearing a pure white linen. Where was this Heavenly army dressed into pure white linen? In Heavenly rooms for Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It doesn’t even make sense if the Lord descended to Mount of Olives and then there have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. How then will it be possible if the rapture didn’t happen first that He arrives on Mount of Olives and we are already dressed in pure white linen. We can find the explanation in Rev. 19:7 ‘Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” Do you know why the Lord’s Bride can come with Him on Mount of Olives? Because she was dressed in pure white lined before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb that is why the Holy ones come with the Lord on Earth already dressed up in pure white linen. No one can come here on Earth in pure white linen if he were not dressed in it for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And the Holy who will be dressed in pure white linen for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be the ones who get raptured. And while the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is occurring in Heaven, in that time, here on Earth will be the Great Tribulation of the world.

And finally Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'

Why is every nation on Earth mourning when Christ returns? Why is no one happy? Because all the Christians are gone, only people with the mark of the beast are left, and a remnant of Israel, who is mourning who they pierced on the cross.
 
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Hammster

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And finally Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'

Why is every nation on Earth mourning when Christ returns? Why is no one happy? Because all the Christians are gone, only people with the mark of the beast are left, and a remnant of Israel, who is mourning who they pierced on the cross.
You quote “tribes” but then change it to “nations”. Why is that?
 
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