The timing of Pesach and the crucifixion--one last time

[Open Heart]

On the evening of the fourteenth begins the fifteenth.

Exodus 12:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twent

No, the evening of the 14 begins at sunset the night before the day of the 14.

 

[CherubRam]

Correction ... The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi Commentary (The Complete Tanach with Rashi) reads "in the afternoon" in Exodus 12:6 and elsewhere when referring to the sacrifice of the lambs. In Exodus 12:18 it reads "evening" which is a little iffy.

​

Should a new day begin when the rays of sunlight are still visible above the horizon at sundown? In other words night time won't occur until 60 to 75 minutes after sundown or one and one-half hours (90 minutes) according to Abraham Ibn Ezra. Nechemiah implies that “night” begins when the stars emerge, and the time of dusk until they become visible is still considered the previous day.

While a day starts and ends at nightfall, the exact moment when night — and the next calendar date — begins is not clear. The twilight period, from sunset ("shekiah") until three stars are visible in the sky ("tzeit hakochavim"), is an "iffy" time period, known as "bein hashmashot." Shabbat and all the holidays begin at sunset, the earliest possible definition of nightfall, and end when three stars appear in the sky the next evening, the latest definition of nightfall. The time between sundown and when three stars are first seen with the naked eye is no earlier than 30 minutes after sundown.
www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526873/jewish/The-Jewish-Day.htm

The status of the dusk – that is from when the sun sets below the horizon – until it is truly dark (usually measured by the appearance of three medium sized stars in the sky) is a question of debate amongst the early Rabbis. Today we treat this time period as a doubt, and as such we are strict to act as though it is both night and day, whichever side will be strict. For example, on Friday afternoon we start the Jewish Sabbath a few moments before sunset – and treat the dusk period as night, and therefore already Sabbath. But on Saturday night, we do not finish the Sabbath until three stars have appeared in the sky – and thus treat the dusk period as part of the day.
www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=7469

So great Rabbis of the previous generations (especially Rav Tukachinkski zt"l) calculated that these three stars (and the absence of red in the western sky) occurs 32 minutes after sunset in winter, and up to 38 minutes in summer. This is when the sun is 8 degrees below the horizon. This calculation of 8 degrees below the horizon is used in many (most?) countries - and comes out to 50-60 minutes in Europe and America. It gets longer as one goes north. There are other opinions - such as the Chazon Ish who fixed it at 45-50 minutes after sunset. Or those who act according to Rabbenu Tam, who wait 72 minutes.
www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=5534

A verse in the book of Nechemiah might help resolve this question. There it describes the unenviable circumstances in which the Jews were rebuilding the Second Beis Hamikdash, while protecting themselves from the enemies who were determined to thwart its erection: And we were continuing the construction work from daybreak until the stars come out [tzeis hakochavim] while half our men were holding spears… and at night we were on guard, while in the day we could proceed with the work(Nechemiah 4:15-16). Nechemiah implies that “night” begins when the stars emerge, and the time of dusk until they become visible is still considered the previous day (see Berachos 2b; Megillah 20b).
three stars – RabbiKaganoff.com
​

The timing is by (tradition.) I check the original text and it says (evening.) The sheep were killed just as the sun is setting, so there would be some light to see. This is all by tradition and not a exact time.

 

[CherubRam]

No, the evening of the 14 begins at sunset the night before the day of the 14.

Friday the 13th ends at evening, and the 14th begins.

 

[AbbaLove]

The timing is by (tradition.) I check the original text and it says (evening.) The sheep were killed just as the sun is setting, so there would be some light to see. This is all by tradition and not a exact time.

The literal translation of Exodus 12:6 is "between the [two] evenings" (plural)
The literal translation of Exodus 12:18 is "evening" (singular)
​

 

[Open Heart]

Friday the 13th ends at evening, and the 14th begins.

The day of the 13 ends at sundown, and the 14th begins that evening. Are we talking past each other?

 

[CherubRam]

The day of the 13 ends at sundown, and the 14th begins that evening. Are we talking past each other?

Perhaps.

 

[Heber Book List]

Was Jesus' Last Supper a Seder? - Biblical Archaeology Society

Interesting thoughts on the issue

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Was Jesus' Last Supper a Seder? - Biblical Archaeology Society

Interesting thoughts on the issue

"Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic custom of using unleavened wafers in the Mass is medieval in origin. The Orthodox churches preserve the earlier custom of using leavened bread."

 

[pat34lee]

So? This forum has never been representative.

And numbers mean nothing. We could all be wrong.

... Except me, of course.

 

[gadar perets]

I will be the first to say that there are differing opinions about this. I tend to stay out of this debate until it actually gets closer to Pesach. So here I am.

First of all, according to Exodus 12:18, The feast of unleavened bread is supposed to start on Nisan 14. These days we start it on the 15. Why the discrepancy? I believe it is because the 14 was the day of preparation, when the lamb was sacrificed (a peace offering?). The Seder was held therefore on the evening of Nisan 15. Today, since there is no corban sacrifice, the first day we celebrate is Nisan 15 by default.

There is no discrepancy. The phrase "on the fourteenth day of the month at even" in Exodus 12:18 refers to the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th just as the phrase "the one and twentieth day of the month at even" refers to the end of the 21st and the beginning of the 22nd. The last day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is Abib 21. In Exodus 12:18, "at even" (ba-ereb) is not to be confused with "at even" (ben ha-arbyim) when the Passover lambs were to be killed.

This means that the day of preparation talked about in the synoptic gospels was the daytime of Nisan 14.

Correct.

The Last Supper was held on the evening of Nisan 15. It leaves plenty of time for the Garden of Gethsemane in the night, as well as the arrest and trial by the Sanhedrin.

In the morning of the 15, Yeshua would have gone before Pilate and Herod, including the scourging. In the afternoon for three hours he would have been crucified. This was still Passover remember, the day after the day of preparation.

The Last Supper was held on the 14th. Yeshua was killed at the EXACT moment the Passover lambs were commanded to be killed in Exodus 12 (between the evenings on Abib 14). John 19:14 calls Abib 14 "the preparation of the Passover" meaning the day before the Passover of Abib 15. The "preparation of the Passover" and "Passover" are two different days.

Pilate is beseeched to give the body so that it can be buried before the Sabbath. John also calls the day, "the day of preparation" meaning preparation for the Sabbath. Jesus therefore dies and is buried before sundown when Sabbath begins.

The preparation for the Sabbath and the preparation for the Passover are the same day (Abib 14). The Sabbath was Abib 15. The day Yeshua died was Abib 14 (the preparation day).

 

[AbbaLove]

The "preparation of the Passover" and "Passover" are two different days.
The preparation for the Sabbath and the preparation for the Passover are the same day (Abib 14). The Sabbath was Abib 15. The day Yeshua died was Abib 14 (the preparation day).

Then there is the concept that it was the Essene's place that Yeshua used for the "last supper" and they were on a different time table and that fits for their faith as to proper timing.

No, the evening of the 14 begins at sunset the night before the day of the 14.

The timing is by (tradition.) I check the original text and it says (evening.) The sheep were killed just as the sun is setting, so there would be some light to see. This is all by tradition and not a exact time.

And numbers mean nothing. We could all be wrong.
... Except me, of course.

Abib 15, is referred to by many as the beginning of [both] the Feast of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. In this scenario(gadar's) it was at the beginning (evening) of Abib 15, that they ate the roasted lamb, bitter herbs and unleavened bread (what about wine?). Also, in this scenario it was at mid-night on Abib 15, that the Death Angel killed the Egyptians first born sons. WHAT IF way back then after 400 years of Egyptian exile an Israelite day began at sunrise like an Egyptian day (WHAT IF). With this scenario the Death Angel would come over the land of Egypt at mid-night on Abib 14, and Abib 15 wouldn't begin until sunrise.

As pat34lee says, "We all could be wrong" in thinking an Israelite day began at sunset during the "Passover" in Egypt. When reading Leviticus 9:1-5, the Israelites were instructed to "celebrate" Passover on Abib 14. We don't get the impression from these verses that Abib 14 was a Day of Preparation, but rather was to be a Day of Celebration ... possibly beginning at sunrise?

Here's something else to consider: Have you ever wondered whether the Israelites could "celebrate" the first Passover without wine? Could the Israelites have previously received wine "in the Desert of Sinai in the first month of the second year after they came out of Egypt" from neighboring tribesmen as a peace offering gesture ?

• One of the first things Noah did after the flood was to plant and nurture a vineyard

• The Israelites most likely had the best cultivated vineyards (Goshen) in all of Egypt

• It's likely that the Israelites took kegs of wine with them to have with their matzah

• The Israelites acquired wine the 2nd year after leaving Egypt (Leviticus 23:5-6)

• Caleb and Joshua returned from the land of Canaan with a prized cluster of grapes

• Yeshua's first miracle turning water into the best tasting wine at the Cana wedding

After being in Egypt from 215 to 430 years is it possible that an Israelite day and an Egyptian day both began at sunrise and not at evening? If only 215 years, as some believe, that's still long enough for the exiled Israelites to adapt/accept Egyptian timekeeping. Exodus 12:8 reads "in this night" referring to the 14th and Exodus !2:12 reads "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every first born" again giving the impression through Exodus 12:1-12 that it's Abib 14 not Abib 15. Perhaps, Abib is an Egyptian name for the barley harvest in Goshen, just as Moshe is an Egyptian name. This begs the question: Whether only 215 years or 400 years did an Israelite day begin at sunrise?

Does the "first day" and "self-same day" (Exodus 12:16-20 YLT) begin at sunrise
​

16 And in the first day [is] a holy convocation, and in the seventh day ye have a holy convocation; any work is not done in them, only that which is eaten by any person -- it alone is done by you,
17 and ye have observed the unleavened things, for in this self-same day I have brought out your hosts from the land of Egypt, and ye have observed this day to your generations -- a statute age-during.
18 In the first [month], in the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, ye do eat unleavened things until the one and twentieth day of the month, at evening;
19 seven days leaven is not found in your houses, for any [one] eating anything fermented -- that person hath been cut off from the company of Israel, among the sojourners or among the natives of the land; (you don't eat wine you drink wine)
20 anything fermented ye do not eat, in all your dwellings ye do eat unleavened things.​

 

[CherubRam]

Friday the 13th is the day of preparation, and the 14th begins at sunset on the 13th of Friday.

 

[gadar perets]

Friday the 13th is the day of preparation, and the 14th begins at sunset on the 13th of Friday.

Are you saying Yeshua died on Abib 13?

 

[gadar perets]

Abib 15, is referred to by many as the beginning of [both] the Feast of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. In this scenario(gadar's) it was at the beginning (evening) of Abib 15, that they ate the roasted lamb, bitter herbs and unleavened bread (what about wine?). Also, in this scenario it was at mid-night on Abib 15, that the Death Angel killed the Egyptians first born sons. WHAT IF way back then after 400 years of Egyptian exile an Israelite day began at sunrise like an Egyptian day (WHAT IF). With this scenario the Death Angel would come over the land of Egypt at mid-night on Abib 14, and Abib 15 wouldn't begin until sunrise.

As pat34lee says, "We all could be wrong" in thinking an Israelite day began at sunset during the "Passover" in Egypt. When reading Leviticus 9:1-5, the Israelites were instructed to "celebrate" Passover on Abib 14. We don't get the impression from these verses that Abib 14 was a Day of Preparation, but rather was to be a Day of Celebration ... possibly beginning at sunrise?

Here's something else to consider: Have you ever wondered whether the Israelites could "celebrate" the first Passover without wine? Could the Israelites have previously received wine "in the Desert of Sinai in the first month of the second year after they came out of Egypt" from neighboring tribesmen as a peace offering gesture ?

• One of the first things Noah did after the flood was to plant and nurture a vineyard

• The Israelites most likely had the best cultivated vineyards (Goshen) in all of Egypt

• It's likely that the Israelites took kegs of wine with them to have with their matzah

• The Israelites acquired wine the 2nd year after leaving Egypt (Leviticus 23:5-6)

• Caleb and Joshua returned from the land of Canaan with a prized cluster of grapes

• Yeshua's first miracle turning water into the best tasting wine at the Cana wedding

After being in Egypt from 215 to 430 years is it possible that an Israelite day and an Egyptian day both began at sunrise and not at evening? If only 215 years, as some believe, that's still long enough for the exiled Israelites to adapt/accept Egyptian timekeeping. Exodus 12:8 reads "in this night" referring to the 14th and Exodus !2:12 reads "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every first born" again giving the impression through Exodus 12:1-12 that it's Abib 14 not Abib 15. Perhaps, Abib is an Egyptian name for the barley harvest in Goshen, just as Moshe is an Egyptian name. This begs the question: Whether only 215 years or 400 years did an Israelite day begin at sunrise?

Does the "first day" and "self-same day" (Exodus 12:16-20 YLT) begin at sunrise
​

16 And in the first day [is] a holy convocation, and in the seventh day ye have a holy convocation; any work is not done in them, only that which is eaten by any person -- it alone is done by you,
17 and ye have observed the unleavened things, for in this self-same day I have brought out your hosts from the land of Egypt, and ye have observed this day to your generations -- a statute age-during.
18 In the first [month], in the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, ye do eat unleavened things until the one and twentieth day of the month, at evening;
19 seven days leaven is not found in your houses, for any [one] eating anything fermented -- that person hath been cut off from the company of Israel, among the sojourners or among the natives of the land; (you don't eat wine you drink wine)
20 anything fermented ye do not eat, in all your dwellings ye do eat unleavened things.​

Where, in Scripture, is wine required for Passover? I can't recall such a verse.

 

[AbbaLove]

Where, in Scripture, is wine required for Passover? I can't recall such a verse.

It isn't on what is referred to as the Day of Preparation, Abib 14, when the perfect, spotless Paschal lamb is sacrificed on the 14th, but not eaten with matzah until Abib 15th according to your timeline interpretation of Exodus 12:16-20 and Leviticus 23:5-6. However, is the timeline of Yeshua's day the same timeline as these verses during the Israelites Passover in Egypt and in the wilderness at Sinai? (see my next post).

The "Fruit of the Vine" (wine) is integral to a Jewish celebration whether at a Wedding, at the Feast of Passover/Unleavened Bread and at the "Last Supper" ...

And He took a cup, and when He had given thanks He said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes."
​

 

[Open Heart]

And numbers mean nothing. We could all be wrong.

... Except me, of course.

 

[gadar perets]

​

It isn't on what is referred to as the Day of Preparation, Abib 14, when the perfect, spotless Paschal lamb is sacrificed on the 14th, but not eaten with matzah until Abib 15th according to your timeline interpretation of Exodus 12:16-20 and Leviticus 23:5-6. However, is the timeline of Yeshua's day the same timeline as these verses during the Israelites Passover in Egypt and in the wilderness at Sinai? (see my next post).

The "Fruit of the Vine" (wine) is integral to a Jewish celebration whether at a Wedding, at the Feast of Passover/Unleavened Bread and at the "Last Supper" ...

And He took a cup, and when He had given thanks He said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes."
​

I agree that wine is an integral part of Jewish celebrations, but that is their choice, not a command of YHWH.

 

[AbbaLove]

... c o n t i n u e d ...​

When did Noah's 24 hr day begin? When did Abraham's 24 hr day begin? When did the Egyptian 24 hr day begin? When did the Israelites 24 hr day begin after living in Egypt for 430 years in exile (or for 215 years as some believe)? Is it possible, just possible, that a 24 hr day in ancient times was from sunrise to sunrise for Noah, Abraham, the Egyptians and the exiled Israelites? Makes too much sense so couldn't be possible but it does explain Exodus 12:6-12 as occurring during Abib 14. Exodus 12:10 ... "nothing of it remain until the morning" ... the morning sunrise being the beginning of Abib 15 and the start of a new day.

Exodus 12:8 reads "in that night" (referring to the 14th) and Exodus 12:12 reads "For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night (the 14th), and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD". You get the impression in Exodus 12:6-12 that it's Abib 14, not Abib 15.

So, let's assume that Abib 14 began at sunrise (Exodus 12:8-12) with the same timeline (sunrise to sunrise) two years later in Leviticus 23:5-6. So the lambs were slaughtered in the afternoon of Abib 14, and blood was smeared on the doorposts. Then the lambs were roasted during the evening twilight (before nightfall), and the Death Angel came at mid-night of Abib 14. Then the Israelites were told to get their things together and left Egypt on Abib 15.

Exodus 12:39 (Abib 15)
They baked the dough that they brought out of Egypt into thin cakes of unleavened bread. It had not been leavened because they were driven out of Egypt and could not wait, nor had they prepared provisions for themselves.​

This timeline discrepancy from ancient times (sunrise to sunrise 24 hr day) to the 2nd Temple timeline of the Sadducees and Pharisees (sunset to sunset 24 hr day) may shed some light on what seems to be different timelines between the Synoptic Gospels vs John's account.

 

[CherubRam]

Are you saying Yeshua died on Abib 13?

Yes, with out a doubt. It was Preparation day just before the Seventh Day Sabbath began; which was also Passover at sunset, the 14th. Scriptures say so.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, with out a doubt. It was Preparation day just before the Seventh Day Sabbath began; which was also Passover at sunset, the 14th. Scriptures say so.

Except that the 14th was a Friday...