The Times We Live in...

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JimD
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Concerning Rom. 5 "made sinners" is paralleled with "made righteous,"
We are not made righteous until we individually repent and accept the free gift of righteousness, so the parallel to that is we do not become sinners until we individually sin and become sinners.
 
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Clare73

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Concerning Rom. 5 "made sinners" is paralleled with "made righteous,"
We are not made righteous until we individually repent and accept the free gift of righteousness, so the parallel to that is we do not become sinners until we individually sin and become sinners.
Are you serious?

Where is it stated in Scripture that imputations are simultaneous?

The parallel is about parallel imputation, not about parallel timing.
 
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misput

JimD
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Romans 5:18.
Sorry Clare, this conversation is obviously dead. I will watch for you down the road maybe. Pretty sorry ending when there are so many other subjects we could discuss : (
 
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JohnD70X7

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There was no sun located until day four, so days and years were both undefined.
And a "day" is due to the radiation of the sun in one location causing a shadow on the other side.
So no point in trying to assign an age to anything.

Um, how do you know if Jesus was not that light source himself?

John 8:12 (AV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
 
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Clare73

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Sorry Clare, this conversation is obviously dead. I will watch for you down the road maybe. Pretty sorry ending when there are so many other subjects we could discuss : (
Your misunderstanding of Scripture does not answer the question:
If all die because all have sinned, why do infants die who have not sinned?

Romans 5:18.

The doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin means that when Adam first sinned, that sin (and its blame) was rightly regarded by God to be our sin as well. John Piper writes:

The problem with the human race is not most deeply that everybody does various kinds of sins—those sins are real, they are huge and they are enough to condemn us. Paul is very concerned about them. But the deepest problemis that behind all our depraviyy and all our sinning, there is a deep mysterious connection with Adam whose sin became our sin and whose judgment became our judgment. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 1")

God ordains that that there be a union of some kind that makes Adam's sin to be our sin so that our condemnation is just. ("Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 5")

The biblical basis for this doctrine of imputed sin is discussed thoroughly in John Piper's five sermons on Romans 5:12-21. Here we will simply seek to summarize some of the primary evidence from this text.

Sin Entered the World Through One Man
First, Paul states in 5:12 that all sinned in Adam: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Paul seems to be equating the "because all sinned" with "through one man sin entered into the world."

Sin is Not Imputed Where There is no Law
Second, in verses 13-14 Paul adds a clarification which confirms that he does indeed have the imputation of Adam's sin in view in the phrase "because all sinned" rather than our individual sins. He states: "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." In other words, Paul concedes that personal sin was prevalent in the world before Moses ("until the Law sin was in the world..."). But he adds that these personal sins were not the ultimate reason people died in that time period: "But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses." As Piper summarizes:

People died even though their own individual sins against the Mosaic law were not the reason for dying; they weren't counted. Instead, the reason all died is because all sinned in Adam. Adam's sin was imputed to them. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 2")

Death Reigned Even Over Those Who Did Not Sin Like Adam
Third, Paul's statement at the end of verse 14 further clarifies that he does not have personal sins in view as the reason for human death: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Piper notes:

In other words, yes Paul concedes that there are other kinds of laws before the Mosaic Law, and yes people broke those laws, and yes, one could argue that these sins are the root cause of death and condemnation in the world. But, Paul says, there is a problem with that view, because death reigned "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." There are those who died without seeing a law and choosing to sin against it.

Who are they? I think the group of people begging for an explanation is infants. Infants died. They could not understand personal revelation. They could not read the law on their hearts and choose to obey or disobey it. Yet they died. Why? Paul answers: the sin of Adam and the imputation of that sin to the human race. In other words, death reigned over all humans, even over those who did not sin against a known and understood law. Therefore, the conclusion is, to use the words of verse 18: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men." (Ibid)

So the purpose of verses 13 and 14 are to clarify verse 12 in this way:

At the end of verse 12 the words, "death spread to all men, because all sinned" mean that "death spread to all because all sinned in Adam." Death is not first and most deeply because of our own individual sinning, but because of what happened in Adam. (Ibid)

Paul's Emphasis Upon the One Transgression
Fourth, at least five times in the following verses Paul says that death comes upon all humans because of the one sin of Adam:

Verse 15: by the transgression of the one the many died

Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation

Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one

Verse 18: through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men

We are all condemned not ultimately because of our individual sins, but because of one sin (verse 18). We die not ultimately because of personal sins, but because of Adam's one transgression (verse 17). It is not ultimately from our personal sins that we die, but rather "by the transgression of the one the many died." Paul states over and over again that it is because of one sin that death and condemnation belong to us all. In other words, we are connected to Adam such that his one sin is regarded as our sin and we are worthy of condemnation for it.

The Direct Statement of Verse 19
Fifth, verse 19 provides us with a direct statement of imputation:

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Paul here says that we are made sinners by the sin of Adam. Due to his disobedience, we are regarded as sinners. We cannot take "made sinners" here to be referring to original sin in which we become inherently sinful because it is paralleled with "made righteous." The phrase "made righteous" in this context is referring to the great truth of justification. Justification does not concern a change in our characters, the infusion of something inherent in us. Rather, it involves a change in our standing before God. In justification, God declares us righteous because He imputes to us the righteousness of Christ--not because He makes us internally righteous (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21). Thus, when Paul says "made righteous" here, he means "imputed with righteousness" not "infused with righteousness." Since "made sinners" is paralleled with "made righteous," it must also be referring to imputation. Thus, Paul is saying that we are all made sinners in the sense that we are imputed with Adam's sin.

Further Resources

John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification"

John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin

John Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.

Douglas Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.

--Matt Perman

"Couldn't have said it better myself," nor could it be any clearer. . .that is, if one takes Scripture as its own word, rather than the word of one's personal theology which denies Scripture's word, and substitutes its own word for the word of Scripture.
 
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misput

JimD
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Your misunderstanding of Scripture does not answer the question"
If all die because all have sinned, why do infants die who have not sinned?

Romans 5:18.

The doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin means that when Adam first sinned, that sin (and its blame) was rightly regarded by God to be our sin as well. John Piper writes:

The problem with the human race is not most deeply that everybody does various kinds of sins—those sins are real, they are huge and they are enough to condemn us. Paul is very concerned about them. But the deepest problemis that behind all our depraviyy and all our sinning, there is a deep mysterious connection with Adam whose sin became our sin and whose judgment became our judgment. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 1")

God ordains that that there be a union of some kind that makes Adam's sin to be our sin so that our condemnation is just. ("Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 5")

The biblical basis for this doctrine of imputed sin is discussed thoroughly in John Piper's five sermons on Romans 5:12-21. Here we will simply seek to summarize some of the primary evidence from this text.

Sin Entered the World Through One Man
First, Paul states in 5:12 that all sinned in Adam: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Paul seems to be equating the "because all sinned" with "through one man sin entered into the world."

Sin is Not Imputed Where There is no Law
Second, in verses 13-14 Paul adds a clarification which confirms that he does indeed have the imputation of Adam's sin in view in the phrase "because all sinned" rather than our individual sins. He states: "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." In other words, Paul concedes that personal sin was prevalent in the world before Moses ("until the Law sin was in the world..."). But he adds that these personal sins were not the ultimate reason people died in that time period: "But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses." As Piper summarizes:

People died even though their own individual sins against the Mosaic law were not the reason for dying; they weren't counted. Instead, the reason all died is because all sinned in Adam. Adam's sin was imputed to them. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 2")

Death Reigned Even Over Those Who Did Not Sin Like Adam
Third, Paul's statement at the end of verse 14 further clarifies that he does not have personal sins in view as the reason for human death: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Piper notes:

In other words, yes Paul concedes that there are other kinds of laws before the Mosaic Law, and yes people broke those laws, and yes, one could argue that these sins are the root cause of death and condemnation in the world. But, Paul says, there is a problem with that view, because death reigned "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." There are those who died without seeing a law and choosing to sin against it.

Who are they? I think the group of people begging for an explanation is infants. Infants died. They could not understand personal revelation. They could not read the law on their hearts and choose to obey or disobey it. Yet they died. Why? Paul answers: the sin of Adam and the imputation of that sin to the human race. In other words, death reigned over all humans, even over those who did not sin against a known and understood law. Therefore, the conclusion is, to use the words of verse 18: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men." (Ibid)

So the purpose of verses 13 and 14 are to clarify verse 12 in this way:

At the end of verse 12 the words, "death spread to all men, because all sinned" mean that "death spread to all because all sinned in Adam." Death is not first and most deeply because of our own individual sinning, but because of what happened in Adam. (Ibid)

Paul's Emphasis Upon the One Transgression
Fourth, at least five times in the following verses Paul says that death comes upon all humans because of the one sin of Adam:

Verse 15: by the transgression of the one the many died

Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation

Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one

Verse 18: through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men

We are all condemned not ultimately because of our individual sins, but because of one sin (verse 18). We die not ultimately because of personal sins, but because of Adam's one transgression (verse 17). It is not ultimately from our personal sins that we die, but rather "by the transgression of the one the many died." Paul states over and over again that it is because of one sin that death and condemnation belong to us all. In other words, we are connected to Adam such that his one sin is regarded as our sin and we are worthy of condemnation for it.

The Direct Statement of Verse 19
Fifth, verse 19 provides us with a direct statement of imputation:

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Paul here says that we are made sinners by the sin of Adam. Due to his disobedience, we are regarded as sinners. We cannot take "made sinners" here to be referring to original sin in which we become inherently sinful because it is paralleled with "made righteous." The phrase "made righteous" in this context is referring to the great truth of justification. Justification does not concern a change in our characters, the infusion of something inherent in us. Rather, it involves a change in our standing before God. In justification, God declares us righteous because He imputes to us the righteousness of Christ--not because He makes us internally righteous (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21). Thus, when Paul says "made righteous" here, he means "imputed with righteousness" not "infused with righteousness." Since "made sinners" is paralleled with "made righteous," it must also be referring to imputation. Thus, Paul is saying that we are all made sinners in the sense that we are imputed with Adam's sin.

Further Resources

John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification"

John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin

John Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.

Douglas Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.

--Matt Perman

"Couldn't have said it better myself," nor could it be any clearer. . .that is, if one takes Scripture as its own word, rather than the word of one's personal theology which denies Scripture's word, and substitutes its own word for the word of Scripture.
So if this view is true and your view of predestination is true, where does individual choice and responsibility for behavior come in? Are we just along for the ride, our destiny already sealed?
 
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Clare73

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So if this view is true and your view of predestination is true, where does individual choice and responsibility for behavior come in? Are we just along for the ride, our destiny already sealed?
You are making assumptions, presuming what has to be true, according to the mind of man.

You have not yet learned Isaiah 55:8-9.

Let's start here:

How can Jesus hold the present generation of Jewish doctors responsible for the blood of the prophets shed by their forefathers from the beginning of the world, when they themselves did not commit those murders (Luke 11:48-51)?
 
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misput

JimD
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Let's start here:

How can Jesus hold the present generation of Jewish doctors responsible for the blood of the prophets shed by their forefathers from the beginning of the world, when they themselves did not commit those murders (Luke 11:48-51)?
Jesus said in Luke it was because they were witness and approved of what their fathers did that they were guilty. Similar to Deuteronomy where God said He would visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children of those who hate me. Similar to helping a murderer to escape punishment implicates one in his crime.
 
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misput

JimD
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Just like when we do the same thing Adam did we become guilty just like him. If I approve of the evil my father does then I am as condemned as he.
The things you believe may be wright and maybe there is no way for us to make sense out of them but I don't believe God would encourage us to study scripture that has things in it that make no sense to us. I do believe His ways are above our ways but I don't believe they are written in scripture. For instance, what all is taken into account when He judges an individual His judgement is way beyond ours. That is why we are told to judge righteous judgement, that is one huge command and is probably why He said Judge not least you be judged likewise, in other words, we better be extremely careful backed up by lots of love, mercy, grace, humility, etc.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus said in Luke it was because they were witness and approved of what their fathers did that they were guilty.
That doesn't mean they were there to see it from the beginning of the world, that means to "give witness, to testify" of their approval. Jesus says their building tombs in respect for the slain prophets of long ago, because of their hatred for him is judged by God not as respect, but as approving of what their forefathers did, that they resolved to keep in their graves those whom their forefathers had put there.
Similar to Deuteronomy where God said He would visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children of those who hate me. Similar to helping a murderer to escape punishment implicates one in his crime.
Which guilt in Deuteronomy at the time was limited to the third and fourth generation of those who hated God, and then eliminated during the time of Ezekiel with "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son shall not share in the guilt of the father."
Deuteronomy, being changed almost 600 years before Christ, did not implicate the doctors of the law at Jesus time in anything they did not do.

So the question remains: how can Jesus hold them guilty for the blood of the prophets shed since the beginning of the world when they did not commit those murders?
 
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SkyWriting

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Um, how do you know if Jesus was not that light source himself?

John 8:12 (AV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

I can't object to Jesus being the light source during the first 3 days of Creation week. It's a great idea.

But if I stick to my objection, then a 24 hour day requires walking in the light and in the dark, both.
Just as Jesus never blinded anybody, and caused them to walk in the dark, so could a day not be defined by the light and dark of Jesus circling the earth. (Or the earth turning, whichever)
 
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Clare73

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Sorry Clare but this is a worthless response to my question.
Perhaps a more accurate way to state it would be, I do not understand what you mean. . .to which I would reply: you are assuming that responsibility for behavior requires individual choice.

To demonstrate that your statement is an assumption on your part, I put to you the case of Jesus holding the doctors of his day responsible for something they not only did not choose to do, but also did not do.

The question you are to answer is: did Jesus' holding them responsible for the crime require their individual choice to do the crime?. . .Deuteronomy not-with-standing here for reason already discussed.
 
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misput

JimD
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That doesn't mean they were there to see it from the beginning of the world, that means to "give witness, to testify" of their approval. Jesus says their building tombs in respect for the slain prophets of long ago, because of their hatred for him is judged by God not as respect, but as approving of what their forefathers did, that they resolved to keep in their graves those whom their forefathers had put there.
Was their hatred of Christ/God not a choice? ("those who hate me")Exodus 20. De.5.
Which guilt in Deuteronomy at the time was limited to the third and fourth generation of those who hated God,
So those in the 5th generation who hated God were OK?
and then eliminated during the time of Ezekiel with "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son shall not share in the guilt of the father."
Oops, God changed? Are you suggesting that during the time of Ezekiel sin was not imputed?! Oh, right, just Adams. : )
Deuteronomy, being changed almost 600 years before Christ, did not implicate the doctors of the law at Jesus time in anything they did not do.
But never the less they were still imputed with the sin of Adam which they did not do. Please explain how Deuteronomy/Exodus/Ezekiel changed without God changing.

So the question remains: how can Jesus hold them guilty for the blood of the prophets shed since the beginning of the world when they did not commit those murders?
Because they chose to hated Christ/God or maybe it was imputed to them because of Adam. : )
 
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JimD
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Perhaps a more accurate way to state it would be, I do not understand what you mean. . .to which I would reply: you are assuming that responsibility for behavior requires individual choice.
As far as I know it does. Just a matter of opinion unless proven who is wright but of course that has to be me, because Clare cannot be wrong.

To demonstrate that your statement is an assumption on your part, I put to you the case of Jesus holding the doctors of his day responsible for something they not only did not choose to do, but also did not do.

The question you are to answer is: did Jesus' holding them responsible for the crime require their individual choice to do the crime?. . .Deuteronomy not-with-standing here for reason already discussed.
No, their choice to hate Christ/God made them guilty of approving of what their fathers did seems to be what the scripture says. Thanks for your patience, I thought you ran out on me earlier.
 
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