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The thought of being justified by works seems to take away God's Glory

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by JohnB445, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Being born again spiritually means we have a new heart with new desires. But nowhere does the Bible teach that just because someone has been born again spiritually once before that they no longer have a free will anymore to not sin and they cannot go back to their old life of sin. It certainly happened in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), and it mentions it as a possibility for the brethren in James 5:19-20.

    Again, being born again does not mean you will automatically continue in love your whole life, etc.

    If so, then why would God's Word say for us believers to "Continue in the grace of God"? (Acts of the Apostles 13:43), "Continue in the faith"? (Colossians 1:23), "Let brotherly love continue."? (Hebrews 13:1) or why would Jesus tell us to: "Continue in my love."? (John 15:9).

    The Bible tells us.... For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14).

    We are made partakers of Christ.... IF we are born again one time?
    Is that what Hebrews 3:14 says?
    It says we are made partakers of Christ IF, IF, IF we HOLD from the beginning our confidence in Him stedfast unto the end. This would not be just believing in Jesus alone but it would include our belief in His teachings on sin, too.

    Jesus taught us that grievous sin can separate us from God. He said that a person who looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body could be cast into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). Now, was Jesus speaking to believers or unbelievers? Well, it does no good for an unbeliever to not commit adultery by looking at a woman in lust, if they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. So Jesus was talking to believers in Matthew 5:28-30. He was warning future born again believers!
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Even the life of King David proves that he a person can be born again spiritually and then fall away from that position by dying spiritually because of sin. We know David was a man of God and had favor with God prior to his sins of murder and adultery because he fought Goliath and God was with him. But when David sinned, and his sin was exposed to him by the prophet Nathaniel, we later see in Psalms 51 about how he repented (sought forgiveness of his sins by prayer) to the Lord. We learn that he desired for a new heart again, God to give him a right spirit within him.

    "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." (Psalms 51:10).

    Now, before you say that no OT saint was ever born again spiritually, the words "circumcision of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament.

    Quick Review:

    Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.

    (Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

    Deuteronomy 10:16

    "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

    Deuteronomy 30:6

    "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

    Jeremiah 4:4

    "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

    Ezekiel 44:9

    "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

    Leviticus 26:41

    "And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

    Jeremiah 9:26

    "Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

    Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

    Ezekiel 11:19

    "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

    Ezekiel 18:31

    "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

    Ezekiel 36:26

    "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

    Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

    Acts 7:51

    "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

    Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

    Philippians 3:3

    "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

    Romans 2:28-29

    28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    Colossians 2:11

    "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Also, here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):

    I mention this because Jesus implies in his speech to Nicodemus that he should have known about being born again.
    This was not a prophecy that Nicodemus should have known about. This was an actual reality for the Old Testament saint that Nicodemus should have been aware of. For Ezekiel 36:26-27 can be read from the perspective of the Israelite during the time of which he lived.
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    A changed life spiritually does not mean we cannot fall back into sin and or die spiritually again. What you believe doesn't matter. The Bible does not hold to your personal belief as I have shown. Can you explain the passages or verses I brought forth? Do you care to know?
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Why would the Bible have this saying then?

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

    If a true born again believer will just automatically overcome every time in this life, then why does the Bible warn us to overcome in this verse? It says he that overcomes, God will not blot out his name out of the book of life.

    A name being blotted out suggests that names cannot be erased or that a name is permanently there. If what you say is true and ALL born again believers are forever saved and cannot fall away, then no name could ever be blotted out of the book of life.

    In fact, 1 Timothy 4:1 says,
    "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

    It says in the latter times some will depart from the faith.
    Yet, you are saying it is not possible to depart from the faith.
    The Bible again contradicts what you are saying.
    My encouragement to you is to believe the Bible and do not trust your own thoughts and or what your church teaches.
    Trust the Bible.
    Not men.
  6. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

    United States
    I went to a reformed Church before so I have been deeply embedded with predestination and perseverance of the saints.

    I have however been challenging that thinking maybe we have that kind of free will to fall away.
  7. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

    God's glory includes Him choosing and calling
    certain people who are totally lost in their sin
    and managing to perfect some of them through
    the work of the most precious Holy Spirit.
    These precious ones must choose to:
    - not be slaves of sin
    - be slaves of obedience
    - be slaves of righteousness
    ... which leads to them having maintained their
    position of being holy and righteous in God's eyes.

    I.E. These precious ones actually chose to
    co-operate with God's Plan of Salvation!

    Now, before anyone gets all in an uproar,
    let it be stated that the new believer (BAC)
    INITIALLY received everything you can think of!
    But, he/she must carry on with this new position
    in Christ, i.e. being righteous/holy in Father's eyes!
    Yes, the new position must be maintained.

    And one major reason why the Word came from heaven
    was to FREE believers from the bondage of sin!
    They have been given the ability to NOT sin!
    But, ability does NOT guarantee results.
    The BAC can (is able to) CHOOSE to habitually sin!
    Sinning without repentance leads to eternal death!

    If you insist that this is "works" as in "good works"
    or "good deeds", then you had better pray about it.
    Because these so-called "works" are simply
    co-operating with God's plan for your life.

    P.S. -- A covenant requires the co-operation
    of both parties involved ... one party cannot
    refuse to do his/her part in the covenant.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  8. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Someone who is Born Again will be regenerated. (Freed from sin)


    They go together.

    if there is no works then there is no faith most likely.
  9. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

    United States
    I don't believe in antinomianism.

    Definition of antinomian. 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace (see grace entry 1 sense 1a) the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. 2 : one who rejects a socially established morality.

    You are radically misrepresenting my beliefs into something I didn't even agree with in the first place.

    I never claimed grace is a license to sin. Yet you keep bringing up the same thing.

    I will repeat once more, I don't agree with antinomianism. This is why I question if you even read my posts. Because you radically misrepresent my beliefs into something I didn't even agree or believe in like antinomianism.

    Maybe if I were a victim of sinners prayer, or posted I could sin away all I want, what your saying would make sense.

    But what do you say to someone who is abiding in Christ, walking in faith and growing? Keep the commandments, obey Jesus? But what if they already are?

    How do you say to someone to keep the commandments, when they are keeping the commandments?