The Thief On The Cross

[shernren]

Scripture interprets Scripture is a logical fallacy of Circular Reasoning. Its no different from using a dictionary to define words; eventually you'll end up right where you began and no smarter or wiser.

So if you find a word in a dictionary that you don't understand, don't you look for it in a dictionary as well? Or is that being illogical?

 

[Philip]

So if you find a word in a dictionary that you don't understand, don't you look for it in a dictionary as well? Or is that being illogical?

The dictionary assumes a certain amount of knowledge of the language. One can not give someone who has never seen or heard a word of English a copy of the OED and expect them to learn the structure, syntax, and semantics of English. The dictionary is reference for people who already have some knowledge of English. Likewise, one can not had a Bible to someone who has never heard of God and expect that person to understand God correctly.

Even Scripture teaches this:

Acts 8:26-31
But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is a desert road. And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Can'dace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.​

 

[PaladinValer]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Philip again.

I owe you

 

[CaDan]

Even Scripture teaches this:

Acts 8:26-31
But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is a desert road. And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Can'dace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.​

Wouldn't this be Scripture interpreting Scripture to get help from others in interpreting Scripture interpreting Scripture?

/me spins round and round, gets dizzy, falls over.

 

[Philip]

Wouldn't this be Scripture interpreting Scripture to get help from others in interpreting Scripture interpreting Scripture?

Sure, but the important thing is that we need help. The Ethiopian was unable to use Scripture to interpret Scripture by himself. The Spirit sent St. Philip to teach what he had learned from the Apostles.

 

[sparklz]

Hello Believers in Christ,

In the story of the thief on the cross it sounds like he is going to paradise that day.
Is this what really happened????????????
Did Jesus tell him he would be with him in heaven(paradise) that day?

Lets take a look


If you study the verse carfully that is not what Jesus said...remember in those days there was no punctuation....here is the verse

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee , Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Hmm souds like thats what he is saying, but did Jesus go to paradise that day.
What does the bible say, in the same chapter of Luke(23) and verse 54; And that day(good Friday the day Jesus died)was the preparation,and the sabbath (Saturday) drew on.55;And the woman also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his bodywas laid. 56;And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.(Saturday not Sunday)

So Jesus wasn't in paradise that day, he died on good Friday, rested in the tomb on sabbath (Saturday) and rose the 3rd day on Sunday(the 1st day of the week), so how could the thief be with him.

Now on Sunday when Mary went to the tomb to find Jesus and Jesus speaks to her he says in John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my father...

This verse proves the thief was not with him in paradise because Jesus himself had not yet ascended..


Remember there was no punctuation in those days so lets read that verse again and move the comma over to it's proper place..

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

What he is saying is that Today I say to you, you will be with me in paradise.

TRUTH Yes or No!!!!!


Pablosrun@sbcglobal.net

 

[pablosrun]

Pablosrun, IT ISN'T IN SCRIPTURE; ITS IN THE THEOLOGY OF THE TIME. The very word "hell" isn't in the Scripture either, yet hell exists. The very word "trinity" doesn't exist, yet the Blessed Trinity does exist.

Repeating the same logical fallacies as you are isn't going to win you the argument. Your chief illogical arguments are those that commit either circular reasoning, false equivocations, or are based on silence. You need to give not only evidence but prove logically how that evidence shows you are right.

I count hell 54 times King James and Godhead 3 time,Godhead=trinity

So what are you talking about

 

[Brain Damage]

The theif asked jesus to remember him when he ( jesus ) comes into his kingdom .

And so the question is , when does jesus come into ( recieve ) his kingdom ?

Does anyone know why jesus is returning to this earth ? ...well i know and i'm not telling ....lol

 

[Philip]

Godhead=trinity

You are making a theological deduction here.

The word Godhead (theotēs, theiotēs. theios) refers to divinity or divine nature as an abstract notion. The word by itself does not carry the connotation of the Christian concept of the Trinity.

 

[PaladinValer]

KJV mistranslates sheol as hell. It isn't. Wasn't to the Jews (they don't even acknowledge such a place) and it most certainly wasn't for the Early Church.

And as Philip has pointed out, you've said the same Fallacy of Equivocation once again.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Hello Believers in Christ,

In the story of the thief on the cross it sounds like he is going to paradise that day.
Is this what really happened???

So Jesus wasn't in paradise that day, he died on good Friday, rested in the tomb on sabbath (Saturday) and rose the 3rd day on Sunday(the 1st day of the week), so how could the thief be with him.
What he is saying is that Today I say to you, you will be with me in paradise.

TRUTH Yes or No!!!!!

:

TRUTH isn't what you think it is.

By your focus on "punctuation and sabbath"... you missed the TRUTH that Jesus is ETERNAL, and that He sustains all things by His powerful word.

Since Jesus is God, He is OMNIPRESENT... He is averywhere 24/7/365 +leapyear.
In Him we live and move and have our being.
So what He says, He does...even tho we may not have a clue.
That thief WAS WITH HIM IN PARADISE, and is still.
We have the same advantage as the thief when we OFFER OUR BODIES as a LIVING SACRIFICE at the Altar... only better.

Are we in heaven yet ?

Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Aside from the obvious textual and linguistic backflips you're having to do, there's also a logical one.

Why would Jesus have to tell the theif that He was telling him this, that day, when Jesus is face to face with the guy?

Who talks like this? "Honey, I'm telling you today, I'm going to Home Depot." Of course you're telling me today. We already know this by virtue of the fact that it's today and you're telling me.

Maybe you have Jesus confused with George Costanza. Sounds more like something he'd say.

Thanks for the sudden burst of laughter !

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Just answer this, if Jesus was in paradise on the day he died, why did he tell Mary he had not ascended, on the day he rose, 3 days later...No backflips here, Kramer, Just bible fact!

Could be a lack of really knowing WHO JESUS IS ...mr bible fact !

 

[Believer-in-Christ]

The important thing is that the thief has been saved. We don't really need to know what happens after death so long as we know we are saved and we have a place in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

The important thing is that the thief has been saved. We don't really need to know what happens after death so long as we know we are saved and we have a place in the Kingdom of God.

And this is how we know we are being saved;
(Mt.26:26-29) "...all of you must drink from it, for this is my blood, the blood of the New Covenant, to be poured out in behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins."
(Heb.9:22)"...without the distribution of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins."

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Have you ever studied the word soul?

Lets take a look...

Gen2:7 And the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the word soul...nephesh(5315) in the hebrew means that which breathes

so in order to have a soul you need a body

body + breath = soul

not my interpretation, it's the words

Very interesting...
So, if the body is made of earth, it is earthy, and will eventually decompose back to earth.
And if the Breath Of God , breathed into him made him a living soul, and the breath of God is eternal....
Then the Soul is eternal...because it comes from The Breath Of God.

Now, subtract the soul (or Breath Of God) from the man and what have you if not a decaying corpse.

Which brings us back to "To say that the soul is not eternal is heresy".
...is still True.

 

[shernren]

so in order to have a soul you need a body

Hm? Isn't that alone enough to refute the idea of the immortal soul? If a soul cannot exist without a body what happens to the "souls" of people who die? Are they given bodies straightaway in Sheol? - if they have bodies there what does it mean for them to be "resurrected" to face the judgment of God? I'm not saying that there is no immortal part of a human. Just that any form of separation between the soul and the body, saying that they exist in and of themselves as separate entities (instead of being both parts / aspects of the whole human) is dualistic in nature, which is Hellenistic-form thinking which classical Jewish thinking would not support.

 

[pablosrun]

Very interesting...
So, if the body is made of earth, it is earthy, and will eventually decompose back to earth.
And if the Breath Of God , breathed into him made him a living soul, and the breath of God is eternal....
Then the Soul is eternal...because it comes from The Breath Of God.

Now, subtract the soul (or Breath Of God) from the man and what have you if not a decaying corpse.

Which brings us back to "To say that the soul is not eternal is heresy".
...is still True.

The breath of God is the spirit not the soul,The word spirit translates = breath
(7307) ruwach, wind by resemblance breath, derived from (7306) ruwach, to blow, i.e. breathe.

So the body + the spirit(breath of God) = living soul!

The word soul means one that breaths and when you die your spirit(breath 7307 in the hebrew) goes back to God!

These are facts.

 

[pablosrun]

Acts 2:29 Men and breathren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried,and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.....

verse 34 For david has not ascended into the heavens:

How much more proof do you need!!!!!!!1

 

[Carlos Vigil]

The breath of God is the spirit not the soul,The word spirit translates = breath
(7307) ruwach, wind by resemblance breath, derived from (7306) ruwach, to blow, i.e. breathe.

So the body + the spirit(breath of God) = living soul!

The word soul means one that breaths and when you die your spirit(breath 7307 in the hebrew) goes back to God!

These are facts.

So then,
Do you believe the soul is immortal ? ..or
Do you believe the soul is not immortal ?