• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

The Thief On The Cross

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by pablosrun, Mar 22, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

    +1,109
    Anglican
    Single
    US-Others
    Saying that the soul isn't immortal is heresy.
     
  2. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    I agree the comma goes after the word today.
    Show me the scripture where it says thatAbrahams bosom is paradise.....
     
  3. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

    +1,109
    Anglican
    Single
    US-Others
    It isn't in Scripture; it is in factual theology however.
     
  4. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    Have you ever studied the word soul?

    Lets take a look...

    Gen2:7 And the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    the word soul...nephesh(5315) in the hebrew means that which breathes

    so in order to have a soul you need a body

    body + breath = soul

    not my interpretation, it's the words
     
  5. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    To the law and to the testimony;If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them...Isaiah 8:20

    And that is factual theology
     
  6. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

    +830
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    :doh:

    Saying that the soul must have a body is also heretical. Where are the souls of the Saints who are with Christ ?
     
  7. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

    scripture interprets scripture
     
  8. Oblio

    Oblio Creed or Chaos

    +830
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Others
    That doesn't anser the question. The Saints spoken of here were pre-Resurrectional captive Saints that Christ led out of Sheol.

    Nope, that's a modern post Reformation doctrine. Nor did your interpretation of that Scripture answer the question. Further, slept is used here as a euphenism for bodily death in hope of eternal life.
     
  9. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    Show me scripture .........Sounds like Babble to me
     
  10. JohnJones

    JohnJones Well-Known Member

    723
    +40
    Christian
    I meant to say "before" not "after." Twas a typo.

    Paradise is NOT the proper name of any one place--it is an adjective, a description, which can apply to many places (at least 3 in Scripture: Eden, Abraham's Bosom, Heaven). The meaning of paradise is determined by context. There are two places where it is used as a reference to heaven in Scripture, 2 Cor 12:4 and Rev 2:7. However, with the thief on the cross it must be a reference to Abraham's bosom because the thief could not have gone to heaven that very day. That's very simple, and doesn't require monkeying with the perfect text of the Bible (KJV).
     
  11. JohnJones

    JohnJones Well-Known Member

    723
    +40
    Christian


    That's exactly what proves that BODIES rather than souls die: it is bodies that require resurrection, because bodies are what dies.

    Observe the following:

    "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption...For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor 15:50-53)

    It is the body, not the spirit, that needs to put immortality on--it is the flesh that must be changed.
     
  12. shernren

    shernren you are not reading this.

    +506
    Protestant
    In Relationship
    Paladin, since you've got a thing for ancients and heresies, would you like it if I told you that the immortal soul is a Gnostic, Hellenist heresy? The true Jewish / early Christian belief was in the resurrection of the person, not the immortal soul / mortal body duality of atheistic Greek philosophy. The only reason current theology supports a soul-body duality is because the early theologians were trained in the Greek school of thought.

    Haha. I'm not going to press the point. But why must we assume that the soul is time-bound? Does the soul have to experience yesterday, and then today, and then tomorrow, all in temporal order? I believe that the soul is not bound to the chronological order of time: I think that when I die the next thing my soul will experience is the eternal life, regardless of whatever the people I leave behind here experience between me dying and their own eternal life. And that is my personal resolution of the Dying Thief: that the very moment he died his soul moved through space and time to the eternal state of blessedness.

    Anyway, what Biblical proof do we have of paradise? And why were the ancients afraid of being consigned to Sheol?
     
  13. tqpix

    tqpix Deist

    +115
    Deist
    Single
    CA-Conservatives
    The first half of that verse is past tense, including the part that says, "And when the sabbath was past...." Also, the verse cleary says the spices were bought AFTER the sabbath.

    No. Any annual sabbath--it doesn't matter if it falls on a weekly sabbath or not--is a high sabbath; the preparation day refers to the day before the ANNUAL sabbath.
     
  14. tqpix

    tqpix Deist

    +115
    Deist
    Single
    CA-Conservatives
    It is clear when the spices were purchased. Read the verse again:

    Mark 16:1: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

    Also, the word "had"--as in "had bought sweet spices"-- is not in the Greek New Testament.

    This is how the verse is rendered in the Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV) by Jay P. Green:

    And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him.
     
  15. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    usually a person needs context with sleep ....

    in 1 thes 5:6-7 these are believer who are spiritually sleeping but alive physcially

    therefore let us not sleep as do others ...choice

    in other passages it means dead physcally
     
  16. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    So they bought the spices saturday night or sunday morning both after sabbath..so he died on friday, and rested in the tomb on sabbath, saturday, and rose on sunday I got no problem with that.

    Even in death he kept the sabbath...:sleep:

    In a prophecy he knew they would keep sabbath in the future...Matthew 24:20 But pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the sabbath day..
    destruction of the temple 70AD Jesus new they would be keeping sabbath......:idea:
     
  17. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

    +1,109
    Anglican
    Single
    US-Others
    Pablosrun,

    1. You are dead wrong about 1st century ce Christian and Jewish theology.
    2. Scripture interprets Scripture is a logical fallacy of Circular Reasoning. Its no different from using a dictionary to define words; eventually you'll end up right where you began and no smarter or wiser.
     
  18. pablosrun

    pablosrun Member

    146
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    US-Republican
    show me scripture and I will believe!

    Alive alive alive for ever more,my Jesus is alive...
     
  19. Kepha

    Kepha Veteran

    +104
    Catholic
    Private
    Show me that just the reading of Scriputure alone can create one Truth, one Faith, one Flock and one Fold. Show me in Scripture where the Bible alone is sufficient. A grave assumption on your part.:sigh:
     
  20. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Traditional Orthodox Anglican

    +1,109
    Anglican
    Single
    US-Others
    Pablosrun, IT ISN'T IN SCRIPTURE; ITS IN THE THEOLOGY OF THE TIME. The very word "hell" isn't in the Scripture either, yet hell exists. The very word "trinity" doesn't exist, yet the Blessed Trinity does exist.

    Repeating the same logical fallacies as you are isn't going to win you the argument. Your chief illogical arguments are those that commit either circular reasoning, false equivocations, or are based on silence. You need to give not only evidence but prove logically how that evidence shows you are right.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...