The Thief on the cross destroy's ROYS/works salvation

[fhansen]

The Thief on the cross simply believed on Christ and was saved by grace through faith right on the spot by Lord Jesus Christ. He didn’t repent of his sins, he repented of unbelief, changed his mind and was saved. he didn’t get water baptized, didn’t belong to a church, didn’t confess his sins, didn’t live a changed life or show proof of salvation or a changed life, no!

Jesus promised that whoever believes in him has eternal life, and I believe the thief on the cross is a perfect example of Romans 4:5 the one who doesn’t work, yet believes on Christ is saved!

These people who insist you must live a changed life, or show evidence of your salvation are wrong, Lordship salvation is a lie, salvation has always been by grace through faith without works. and People will still claim that salvation was by works prior to Christs death, and not by faith alone, the thief on the cross debunks that lie.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

We're judged based on what we know and what we're given: time, opportuntituy, revelation, grace, with more demanded of those given more, Luke 12:48. The theif did the best that anyone could with what he had, under his circumstances. But if the Roman soldiers suddenly decided to give him a reprieve and let him down from his cross, then presumably he'd be expected to do more with his life in obeying God's directives-and could well yet fail at doing His will. As it was that was not to be his fate anyway.

 

[JoeT]

The Thief on the cross simply believed on Christ and was saved by grace through faith right on the spot by Lord Jesus Christ. He didn’t repent of his sins, he repented of unbelief, changed his mind and was saved. he didn’t get water baptized, didn’t belong to a church, didn’t confess his sins, didn’t live a changed life or show proof of salvation or a changed life, no!

Jesus promised that whoever believes in him has eternal life, and I believe the thief on the cross is a perfect example of Romans 4:5 the one who doesn’t work, yet believes on Christ is saved!

These people who insist you must live a changed life, or show evidence of your salvation are wrong, Lordship salvation is a lie, salvation has always been by grace through faith without works. and People will still claim that salvation was by works prior to Christs death, and not by faith alone, the thief on the cross debunks that lie.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believe on me hath everlasting life.

I contend that "paradeisos" or paradise is not heaven. Nobody went to heaven until the resurrection which was two days away. Rather Sheol, or sometimes referred to as Hades; a place of varying degrees of existence between heaven and what we call hell. In the Apostle's Creed we hear the earliest Catholics confess Jesus Christ and one line that would sound strange if you didn't know about limbo, "He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead". The just in Sheol waiting on the resurrection were redeemed in person by Jesus Christ.

"And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil." [Luke 23:41]. In Christ's last act we do see that our just works do indeed count towards merit. We see evidence of it in Christ's crucifixion. Works without faith is dead and faith is made perfect by works of charity. [Cf. James 2:17- 25].

JoeT

 

[Jamdoc]

The Thief on the cross simply believed on Christ and was saved by grace through faith right on the spot by Lord Jesus Christ. He didn’t repent of his sins, he repented of unbelief, changed his mind and was saved. he didn’t get water baptized, didn’t belong to a church, didn’t confess his sins, didn’t live a changed life or show proof of salvation or a changed life, no!

Jesus promised that whoever believes in him has eternal life, and I believe the thief on the cross is a perfect example of Romans 4:5 the one who doesn’t work, yet believes on Christ is saved!

These people who insist you must live a changed life, or show evidence of your salvation are wrong, Lordship salvation is a lie, salvation has always been by grace through faith without works. and People will still claim that salvation was by works prior to Christs death, and not by faith alone, the thief on the cross debunks that lie.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

It's all true, that's the only requirement, but 1 John and James and Paul's writings all kinda point out that if you are saved your life will change, because you're saved. That said, we shouldn't judge people and try to determine if they're saved or not if they profess Christ, yeah you can kinda take them aside and talk about some ongoing sin in their life, admonishing as a brother but, don't determine them as not being saved like many people did regarding Ravi Zacharias after he died. The "thief on the cross" didn't really have opportunity to exhibit a changed life but had he been removed from the cross, bandaged up and his life spared, I bet his life would have shown change.

But principally, the change to your life is not what saves you, it's that you're saved and so.. your life changes as a result, but, we don't always know what's going on with someone and there can be both people who outwardly looked sinful but had saving faith, and there can be people who looked outwardly like perfect saints but had hidden sins.

 

[Cockcrow]

Satan believes in Jesus but is not saved. There is a lot in the Bible about salvation, how we are saved through Baptism, how we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and how we are saved by faith, and how faith without works is dead.

Satan believes that Jesus exists but does he believe on Jesus for salvation?

 

[Cockcrow]

I believe the thief on the cross was repentant.

Luke 23:40-41 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."​

He saw his life and realized he had done wrong, and feared God. The fact that he had no time to "show" this does not mean he was not truly repentant.

Your statment, is off the mark:



A person must have a changed life after coming to Christ, how be it often a process.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."​

The person who puts their sins before God, is described in the following way:

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.​

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What did Jesus come to destroy, "our sins".

Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.​

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The Holy Spirit moves us away from our sins.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Cockcrow]

I contend that "paradeisos" or paradise is not heaven. Nobody went to heaven until the resurrection which was two days away. Rather Sheol, or sometimes referred to as Hades; a place of varying degrees of existence between heaven and what we call hell. In the Apostle's Creed we hear the earliest Catholics confess Jesus Christ and one line that would sound strange if you didn't know about limbo, "He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead". The just in Sheol waiting on the resurrection were redeemed in person by Jesus Christ.

"And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil." [Luke 23:41]. In Christ's last act we do see that our just works do indeed count towards merit. We see evidence of it in Christ's crucifixion. Works without faith is dead and faith is made perfect by works of charity. [Cf. James 2:17- 25].

JoeT

Jesus did go to hell Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

the Bible is clear he descended into hell for three days and nights. Heaven is always described us upwards, ascending, hell is below, in the heart of the Earth. God is omnipresent that is how he can be up in Heaven, paradise and also in Hell. Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Thief on the cross simply believed on Christ and was saved by grace through faith right on the spot by Lord Jesus Christ. He didn’t repent of his sins, he repented of unbelief, changed his mind and was saved. he didn’t get water baptized, didn’t belong to a church, didn’t confess his sins, didn’t live a changed life or show proof of salvation, no!

Jesus promised that whoever believes in him has eternal life, and I believe the thief on the cross is a perfect example of Romans 4:5 the one who doesn’t work, yet believes on Christ is saved!

These people who insist you must live a changed life, or show evidence of your salvation are wrong, Lordship salvation is a lie, salvation has always been by grace through faith without works.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

This is based on a lot of assumptions. We don’t know that the thief didn’t repent of his sins, we don’t know that he wasn’t baptized, and we don’t know that he wasn’t in the church. You assume all these things but the scriptures don’t provide evidence to support them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I contend that "paradeisos" or paradise is not heaven. Nobody went to heaven until the resurrection which was two days away. Rather Sheol, or sometimes referred to as Hades; a place of varying degrees of existence between heaven and what we call hell. In the Apostle's Creed we hear the earliest Catholics confess Jesus Christ and one line that would sound strange if you didn't know about limbo, "He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead". The just in Sheol waiting on the resurrection were redeemed in person by Jesus Christ.

"And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil." [Luke 23:41]. In Christ's last act we do see that our just works do indeed count towards merit. We see evidence of it in Christ's crucifixion. Works without faith is dead and faith is made perfect by works of charity. [Cf. James 2:17- 25].

JoeT

From my experience it appears that Hades only refers to the place of suffering in Sheol as opposed to Abraham’s bosom which is the place of paradise in Sheol. But I do agree that the thief didn’t go to heaven, he went to Abraham’s bosom until Christ’s resurrection.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Thief on the cross simply believed on Christ and was saved by grace through faith right on the spot by Lord Jesus Christ. He didn’t repent of his sins, he repented of unbelief, changed his mind and was saved. he didn’t get water baptized, didn’t belong to a church, didn’t confess his sins, didn’t live a changed life or show proof of salvation, no!

Jesus promised that whoever believes in him has eternal life, and I believe the thief on the cross is a perfect example of Romans 4:5 the one who doesn’t work, yet believes on Christ is saved!

These people who insist you must live a changed life, or show evidence of your salvation are wrong, Lordship salvation is a lie, salvation has always been by grace through faith without works.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Do you read only parts of His teachings or do you read them all? Jesus said a lot more than just believing was required for salvation. For example in John 15:1-7 He said that we must remain in Him. In Matthew 7:21-27 He said that we must “do the will of God” and that doesn’t mean just believing because verses 23-27 He said we must hear His words and act on them. In John 10:27-29 Jesus said that His sheep hear Him and they follow. Personally I don’t think it has anything to do with the actual works themselves but the motivation behind those work, that being faith working thru love for God and others. It’s extremely likely that the thief possessed these qualities and that’s why he was saved.

 

[Cockcrow]

Do you read only parts of His teachings or do you read them all? Jesus said a lot more than just believing was required for salvation. For example in John 15:1-7 He said that we must remain in Him. In Matthew 7:21-27 He said that we must “do the will of God” and that doesn’t mean just believing because verses 23-27 He said we must hear His words and act on them. In John 10:27-29 Jesus said that His sheep hear Him and they follow. Personally I don’t think it has anything to do with the actual works themselves but the motivation behind those work, that being faith working thru love for God and others. It’s extremely likely that the thief possessed these qualities and that’s why he was saved.

Jesus said in John 6:47 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” he said believe on him for eternal life, not turn from all your sins, live a good life. the will of God is to believe the Son.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said in John 6:47 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” he said believe on him for eternal life, not turn from all your sins, live a good life. the will of God is to believe the Son.

Surely that doesn’t mean that we should ignore the verses that I quoted friend. Would you agree?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said in John 6:47 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” he said believe on him for eternal life, not turn from all your sins, live a good life. the will of God is to believe the Son.

Do you think that He meant for us to believe who He is, but not what He said?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Quoth Chrysostom on this topic:

In the beginning, God shaped man, and man was an image of the Father and the Son. God said, “Let us make man to our image and likeness.” Again, when he wished to bring the thief into paradise, he immediately spoke the word and brought him in. Christ did not need to pray to do this, although he had kept all people after Adam from entering there. God put there the flaming sword to guard Paradise. By his authority, Christ opened paradise and brought in the thief.
Against the Anomoeans 9.15.

This probably doesn’t help. More like raise the question of how Chrysostom viewed the Afterlife.

So you believe that Abraham’s bosom was the garden of Eden? That’s an interesting theory I’ve never heard it before.

 

[BNR32FAN]

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Yes God has plainly and clearly stated in The Bible, that belief,trust,faith is the means by which a person receives His free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

Belief, trust, and faith in what?

 

[BNR32FAN]

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

What do you think He meant be “hears My word”?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The thief on the cross died sinless. He died sinless because Jesus forgave him of his previous sins and "sin[ned] nor more" just as Jesus said to those who he healed, "go. And sin no more". I suppose the thief could have blasphemed from the cross but he apparently didn't, so there were no sins he could have committed after his forgiveness. Today, we receive forgiveness of our previous sins though baptism, just it says, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins", see Acts 2:38. If someone were to be baptized and die immediately afterward, he would also die sinless just as the thief did.

Along with baptism we are to "repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance", Acts 26:20. And that repentance is more than simply a change of mind, but is "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God", Hebrews 6:1. Not simply faith, but faith and repentance from "dead works", e.g., works that lead to death - sin. We enter into salvation by grace though faith without prior works, see Ephesians 2:8-9, but it is by works that we are continuously justified, just as James said, we are "justified by works and not by faith only, James 2:24.

All our sins are atoned by Christ’s sacrifice as long as we abide in Him. So even sins after we are baptized are cleansed by His sacrifice as long as we repent and abide in Him.

 

[Der Alte]

So you believe that Abraham’s bosom was the garden of Eden? That’s an interesting theory I’ve never heard it before.

"Abraham's Bosom" is not a place it is a position.

​

Jewish Encyclopedia-Abraham's Bosom
In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abode of bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise.

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Brother-Mike]

So you believe that Abraham’s bosom was the garden of Eden? That’s an interesting theory I’ve never heard it before.

Quoting Chrysostom (especially Chrysostom!) does not imply agreement, hence my final comment re. the weirdness of his position.

 

[BNR32FAN]

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Well a majority of christian churches/preachers/peoples believe and teach a legalism form of eternal life salvation.

That is different than what The Jews did by adhering to the Law (but in a way like). The difference is now, the legalism comes in man created ways, so many of the churches may differ from each other in their requirements for salvation. Some many say a person needs to do x plus x plus x while other may say one needs to do y plus y , etc...

But they are all really saying the same thing that a person must follow the churches crafted salvation plan. Then after death face a final judgment to see if you did live a life of enough commitment/obedience to God. To see if you were good enough to be given or judged, for the reception of eternal life.

Which is more beneficial to an apostate church, teaching that one must obey Christ or teaching that one doesn’t have to obey Him? Which of those two options will get the church more members and more money? The one that teaches that we must walk in the Spirit or the one that teaches that we don’t have to and we don’t have to change our way of life? Faith alone is a heretical doctrine that gives people a false sense of security that allows them to be saved without any devotion whatsoever preventing them from actually becoming a new creation. No burden of having to refrain from anything or changing their preferred lifestyle just believe and that it. Makes for a pretty wide path from my perspective.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Amen we’re justified by faith, does that mean Paul taught that we can still continue to live in sin? Read what he wrote in chapter 6. He still had much to say after Romans 4.

Romans 6