The theory of Original Sin is FALSE

[Zeena]

Otherwise Jesus was a sinner, for He came as fully MAN [and fully God].

 

[grasping the after wind]

Which is it that you are stating Original sin false or Jesus sinner?

 

[Zeena]

Since you have raised an either or question, why have you decided that the theory of original sin is mistaken rather than that Jesus was a sinner?

Because a sinner is what one DOES, not what one IS.

Jesus never sinned.

 

[Zeena]

Which is it that you are stating Original sin false or Jesus sinner?

Both, but I propose to look at this from the direct perspective that men are made in the likeness of God.. Jesus.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Otherwise Jesus was a sinner, for He came as fully MAN [and fully God].

This problem goes away if we think of sin in the following manner: Sin is not part of man's nature in the sense that it is required for something to be human. It is an extra thing tacked on. It is contingent, not necessary. Therefore, being fully man is independent from having the stain of original sin or not.

Normal humans have no power to remove this stain. It is removed by the grace of God through Baptism (or whatever means you might decide is correct). Jesus, being fully God, can birth himself without the stain of original sin on him.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Thank you for clarification. I would like to explore this further but I'm due elsewhere.

 

[Zebra1552]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been cleaned. If your posts are no longer present, they fell victim to the clean. This thread is about original sin and if Jesus was affected by it. Discuss.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[elman]

This problem goes away if we think of sin in the following manner: Sin is not part of man's nature in the sense that it is required for something to be human. It is an extra thing tacked on. It is contingent, not necessary. Therefore, being fully man is independent from having the stain of original sin or not.

Normal humans have no power to remove this stain. It is removed by the grace of God through Baptism (or whatever means you might decide is correct). Jesus, being fully God, can birth himself without the stain of original sin on him.

I think we are all born free of sin. It is only when we sin that we are guilty of sin. We are never guilty of sin because someone else sinned. Ezekiel 18.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Because a sinner is what one DOES, not what one IS.

Jesus never sinned.

I don't know that I agree with first the statement here. Sin is what one does, a sinner is what one is.

 

[Tangible]

Were Adam and Eve fully human before the fall?

 

[elman]

I don't know that I agree with first the statement here. Sin is what one does, a sinner is what one is.

What one is is what one does. Remember the parable of the two sons. One was asked to go and do for the father and said no and one was asked to go the same thing and said yes. The one that said no changed his mind and went and the one that said yes changed his mind and did not go. The one that went was the son to the father, no the one that said he would go. A sinnes is one who sin, and until he sins, he is not a sinner.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I think we are all born free of sin. It is only when we sin that we are guilty of sin. We are never guilty of sin because someone else sinned. Ezekiel 18.

This may be true, but we are said to be born sinners because we have inherited the sinful nature of humans.

 

[JDS]

This may be true, but we are said to be born sinners because we have inherited the sinful nature of humans.

Where are we told that? We are said be be born in the image of Adam. Sin is an act of the will, not a condition. Because sin reigns over Adam's race, we all willfully sin, making us sinners. It is no more complicated than that!

 

[grasping the after wind]

What one is is what one does. Remember the parable of the two sons. One was asked to go and do for the father and said no and one was asked to go the same thing and said yes. The one that said no changed his mind and went and the one that said yes changed his mind and did not go. The one that went was the son to the father, no the one that said he would go. A sinnes is one who sin, and until he sins, he is not a sinner.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but I believe there is more to what one is than what one does. If I tell a lie am I a liar or a generally truthful person who has told a lie? If I give money to a worthy cause once am I generous and charitable or perhaps a miserly wretch who one time did something nice.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Where are we told that? We are said be be born in the image of Adam. Sin is an act of the will, not a condition. Because sin reigns over Adam's race, we all willfully sin, making us sinners. It is no more complicated than that!

I fail to see a difference between what you and I are saying.

 

[elman]

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but I believe there is more to what one is than what one does. If I tell a lie am I a liar or a generally truthful person who has told a lie? If I give money to a worthy cause once am I generous and charitable or perhaps a miserly wretch who one time did something nice.

All lies are not sins. Sin is an unloving act. Yes we all sin if we mature and are mentally normal, not mentally defective. But being someone who sins does not make us the same as someone who's life is characterized by sin. Hitler is not the same as Mother Theresa although both sinned. It is because we all sin and fall short of the glory of God that we need mercy and forgiveness. That is why our hope for eternal life is based on grace and not on our loving actions. But if we have not loving actions, we have no hope of eternal life. 1 Cor 13:2. Faith without love is worthless.

 

[Van]

According to my understanding, the doctrine of original sin is that by the sin of the one [Adam] the many [all mankind excluding Jesus] were made sinners. Thus the doctrine is not that we were corrupted and so predisposed to sin, which is true but beside the point, but rather we are conceived as sinners. Now since we have not sinned, for folks in the womb have not done anything good or bad (Romans 9:11) the actual idea is that we are conceived in a sinful state, and our sinful state is separated from our Holy God. So it is a spiritual condition, not a physical condition. We see this in how Eve was "made a sinner." After Adam sinned, then both their eyes were opened, so there is no "sin gene" and therefore the fact that Jesus was fully man did not result in "inheriting" the sin gene through His mother.

Now does the Bible teach that because we are fallen, we suffer from total spiritual inability? No. So if that was part of your understanding of the doctrine of original sin, that part is, in my opinion, invalid.

Summary, the doctrine of original sin is taught by the Bible and is true, we are born in a sinful state, spiritually separated from God, and because of our spiritual condition, we are predisposed to sin, but not so corrupted we are totally unable to understand the milk of the gospel and put our trust in God.

 

[elman]

According to my understanding, the doctrine of original sin is that by the sin of the one [Adam] the many [all mankind excluding Jesus] were made sinners. Thus the doctrine is not that we were corrupted and so predisposed to sin, which is true but beside the point, but rather we are conceived as sinners. Now since we have not sinned, for folks in the womb have not done anything good or bad (Romans 9:11) the actual idea is that we are conceived in a sinful state, and a sinful state is separated from our Holy God. So it is a spiritual condition, not a physical condition. We see this in how Eve was "made a sinner." After Adam sinned, then both their eyes were opened, so there is no "sin gene" and therefore that fact that Jesus was fully man did not result in "inheriting" the sin gene through His mother.

Now does the Bible teach that because we are fallen, we suffer from total spiritual inability? No. So if that was part of your understanding of the doctrine of origninal sin, that part is, in my opinion, invalid.

Summary, the doctrine of original sin is taught by the Bible and is true, we are born in a sinful state, spiritually separated from God, and because of our spiritual condition, we are predisposed to sin.

I don't believe the Bible does teach we are born in a sinful state, spiritually separated from God. I believe the Bible teaches we are born like Adam spiritually alive and when we sin, we are like Adama thrown out of the garden or as Ezekiel say in chapter 18, we have killed ourselves spiritually, killed our own soul with our own sin. I know about the verse by David, but David was wrong just as the people who argued with Job were wrong. Something being in the Bible does not prove it is true. If you look closely at the scripture by Paul that sin came to all men through Adam, it says because "all men sin". So even there, the Bible does not really teach we are sinners at birth because of Adam. It teaches we are sinners because we sin. We are created like Adam spiritually alive. If we die while we are spiritually alive our body returns to dust and our soul returns to God. It is I believe this spiritual life that is how we are created in the image of God. If we were created spiritually dead we would not be in the image of God who is alive and is spirit. When we have killed our own soul with our own sin, we must be recreated by God. This is the second birth. It is not about the physical birth being the first birth. It is about the physical birth being also a spiritual birth and thus the recreation by God after we kill ourselves spiritually is the second Birth as described by Jesus in the story of Nicodemus.

 

[Tangible]

Only sinners die. The wages of sin is death.

Now, if we are born sinless and only later choose to sin, then surely since the beginning of the world there must be someone somewhere who has been fortunate enough not to have sinned and therefore must still be alive no matter when he was born.

I've seen some old people before, but I've never seen anyone who can't die. Show me this person and I will believe that we are born sinless.

In fact, if you can even show me a seconds-old newborn and prove to me that he is immortal, I'll believe you. The sad fact is, though, that newborns die all the time. Babies even die before they are born.

The wages of sin is death. If they were not subject to the law of sin, they would not be able to die.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Otherwise Jesus was a sinner, for He came as fully MAN [and fully God].

Why do you think the mystery of Jesus being fully man is able to discredit/disprove original sin? There are far greater mysteries that are nonetheless true. For example, how can Jesus have two natures? Even more, how can one man, in the matter of 3 hours, drain the cup of God's wrath that would have taken an eternity to pour out on me or you? Finally, how can the infinite one even truly die?

Your answer to these questions is the answer to the original sin dilemma.