The Temple Recommend October 2019 focus is ...

[ViaCrucis]

We are saved by grace after all that we can do. Dead faith will not save, only faith through works saves. Will people who love sin more than they love Jesus be saved? Sin is death:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:17 - 19)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Curious, do Mormons ever bother with biblical exegesis? Because it would seem that with the amount of effort put into institutionalized missionary and apologetic efforts that something like basic exegesis would at some point be employed.

Here's 1 Peter 4:17

ὅτι ὁ καιρὸς τοῦ ἄρξασθαι τὸ κρίμα ἀπὸ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ θεοῦ εἰ δὲ πρῶτον ἀφ᾽ ἡμῶν τί τὸ τέλος τῶν ἀπειθούντων τῷ τοῦ θεοῦ εὐαγγελίῳ

The key word we are going to look at is ἀπειθούντων, which the KJV renders as "be of them that obey not". This is the present participle active form of the verb ἀπειθέω (apeitheo). We actually get our English word "apathy" from this Greek word. To say that it means "disobey" isn't quite right, because πείθω means "persuade", that is, to convince by argument. Thus ἀπειθέω is best understood as "to be unpersuaded", "unconvinced". Thus St. Peter here refers to those who refuse the Gospel, those who reject it, who are unpersuaded by it.

Further, the entire context here is judgment. Thus should judgment come first upon God's house, and if those who face the trials which are in store should be shaken, (these are the "righteous" mentioned), then it shall be even more for the ungodly. If judgment comes, and even God's house shall be shaken, then those outside of the house shall face the tremors of judgment all the more. Thus, following Peter's entire contextual point, that those who suffer (as as Christian, verse 16) remain firm in their devotion to God.

This is a fundamental and common problem virtually every time you attempt to quote the Bible. You don't bother to actually read what the text is saying; instead you find something that looks good, you quote it.

But, you also don't seem to ever learn. You will inevitably ignore everything said here, will find another prooftext you mistakenly think supports your position, and then eventually start all over again. It's been your modus operandi pretty much in every discussion I've had with you. You seem to be using a scripted set of plays, not anything resembling as a critical engagement in actual point/counter-point discussion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BigDaddy4]

I am not being deceitful. There are necessary ordinances that must be performed in order for a person to enter the kingdom of God. Those ordinances need to be performed by someone who holds the keys to perform that ordinance. If they do not hold those keys the ordinance will not be accepted by God. I know that everyone who keeps the commandments will be given the promises listed in the Bible because God does not lie. If they do not receive the necessary ordinances during their tenure on the earth, they will receive them by proxy by someone holding the keys to perform that ordinance.

Finally, some honesty. These go beyond "loving God and loving others". "Proxy" and "key holders" are false teachings made up by your false prophet. No human can "stand in" for another. Jesus did it all for us, and that's all we need. So, please, in the future, when you want to stand on your "keep the commandments" soapbox, make sure that you are referring to the lds "commandments", not the Biblical "love God, love others" commandments.

 

[He is the way]

You said "we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul" … really?

Expect of course you choose not to follow the admonition of Paul when ".. because he seems to remove all so called 'burdens' from you, and seems to allow you into heaven by just believing in Jesus." ~ Peter1000 post #30

So much for honesty. Maybe it is better reworded as: we follow the admonition of Paul .. as long as it jives with Mormon works of self-righteousness.

"... Is that why you have a tendency to look to Paul for your gospel, because he seems to remove all so called 'burdens' from you, and seems to allow you into heaven by just believing in Jesus.

Spencer Kimball was right, your belief that man is saved alone by the grace of God and that a belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. ..." ~ Peter1000 post #30​

LDS prophet Spencer Kimball:
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation” ~ Book of Mormon Student Manual, p. 36​

This is what Paul said:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I choose to obey Jesus Christ and follow His teachings. Do not obey sin.

 

[He is the way]

Curious, do Mormons ever bother with biblical exegesis? Because it would seem that with the amount of effort put into institutionalized missionary and apologetic efforts that something like basic exegesis would at some point be employed.

Here's 1 Peter 4:17

ὅτι ὁ καιρὸς τοῦ ἄρξασθαι τὸ κρίμα ἀπὸ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ θεοῦ εἰ δὲ πρῶτον ἀφ᾽ ἡμῶν τί τὸ τέλος τῶν ἀπειθούντων τῷ τοῦ θεοῦ εὐαγγελίῳ

The key word we are going to look at is ἀπειθούντων, which the KJV renders as "be of them that obey not". This is the present participle active form of the verb ἀπειθέω (apeitheo). We actually get our English word "apathy" from this Greek word. To say that it means "disobey" isn't quite right, because πείθω means "persuade", that is, to convince by argument. Thus ἀπειθέω is best understood as "to be unpersuaded", "unconvinced". Thus St. Peter here refers to those who refuse the Gospel, those who reject it, who are unpersuaded by it.

Further, the entire context here is judgment. Thus should judgment come first upon God's house, and if those who face the trials which are in store should be shaken, (these are the "righteous" mentioned), then it shall be even more for the ungodly. If judgment comes, and even God's house shall be shaken, then those outside of the house shall face the tremors of judgment all the more. Thus, following Peter's entire contextual point, that those who suffer (as as Christian, verse 16) remain firm in their devotion to God.

This is a fundamental and common problem virtually every time you attempt to quote the Bible. You don't bother to actually read what the text is saying; instead you find something that looks good, you quote it.

But, you also don't seem to ever learn. You will inevitably ignore everything said here, will find another prooftext you mistakenly think supports your position, and then eventually start all over again. It's been your modus operandi pretty much in every discussion I've had with you. You seem to be using a scripted set of plays, not anything resembling as a critical engagement in actual point/counter-point discussion.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, Joseph Smith did do a translation of the Bible, however he wasn't prompted to make any changes to 1 Peter 4:17 - 18

Verse 17: ὅτι ὁ καιρὸς τοῦ ἄρξασθαι τὸ κρίμα ἀπὸ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ Θεοῦ· εἰ δὲ πρῶτον ἀφ’ ἡμῶν, τί τὸ τέλος τῶν ἀπειθούντων τῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ εὐαγγελίῳ; as translated "for[it is] the time {for} - to have begun the judgement from the house - of God if now first from us, what [will be] the outcome of those disobeying the - of God Gospel?

verse 18: καὶ εἰ ὁ δίκαιος μόλις σῴζεται, ὁ ἀσεβὴς καὶ ἁμαρτωλὸς ποῦ φανεῖται; And if the righteous [one] with difficulty is saved, the also ungodly and sinner where will appear?

From: 1 Peter 4:17 Greek Text Analysis and 1 Peter 4:18 Greek Text Analysis

There are two occurrences of ἀπειθούντων in the Bible:

Romans 15:31 V-PPA-GMP
GRK: ἀπὸ τῶν ἀπειθούντων ἐν τῇ
NAS: from those who are disobedient in Judea,
KJV: from them that do not believe in
INT: from those being unbelievers in

1 Peter 4:17 V-PPA-GMP
GRK: τέλος τῶν ἀπειθούντων τῷ τοῦ
NAS: for those who do not obey the gospel
KJV: shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel
INT: outcome of those disobeying the of the

From: Greek Concordance: ἀπειθούντων (apeithountōn) -- 2 Occurrences

Bible hub does not use the word "unconvinced" in either of their translations.

 

[He is the way]

Finally, some honesty. These go beyond "loving God and loving others". "Proxy" and "key holders" are false teachings made up by your false prophet. No human can "stand in" for another. Jesus did it all for us, and that's all we need. So, please, in the future, when you want to stand on your "keep the commandments" soapbox, make sure that you are referring to the lds "commandments", not the Biblical "love God, love others" commandments.

The proxy and key holders are not false teachings because they are Biblical. I will continue to preach keeping the commandments because that is also Biblical:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Those who keep these two commandments will have life eternal. There is a difference between ordinances, commandments, and statutes:

(Old Testament | 2 Kings 17:34)

34 Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;

 

[Joy]

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