MJ Only The Talmud (rabbinic tradition) vs. The New Testament

[AbbaLove]

The Talmud (rabbinic tradition) vs. The New Testament - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry​

"The Brit HaKodesh (NT) is the natural continuation of the Tanakh (OT). Namely the fulfillment of the Tanakh (OT) prophecies and the descriptions of the Messiah's life. But it is the Talmud that abandoned and left the law of Israel and made itself a new way. The Judaism of rabbinic tradition which comes from the Talmud is not Jewish at all. Original Judaism, the first and true one, is the one described in the writings of the Tanakh (OT) and the Brit HaKodesh (NT).

After the destruction of the 2nd Temple Israel was left with two main options from which only one could be chosen: Go for the Judaism on the Brit HaKodesh (NT) based on the Messiah Yeshua to whom the prophecies of the OT pointed or the tradition of the Rabbis based on the sect of the Pharisees ... the Rabbis.

Even from a chronological point of view the Judaism of the NT preceded the Judaism of the Talmud, since the writings of the NT were completed already by the first century AD while the writings of the rabbinic tradition, the Talmud, was formulated hundreds of years later. Looking at the writings of both groups reveals the truth even more clearly: Chronologically the last book in the OT is Malachi. It closes the OT. Which is the better continuation of the OT: The NT or the Talmud?" ... (9:07 to 15:45)​

(please ignore poll as there is no 'disagree' selection)
​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahshua opposed the traditions of the pharisees that opposed TORAH / hypocrites who did not accept Him as Messiah.
'nuff said.

 

[ChavaK]

Never mind.....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Talmud (rabbinic tradition) VS (AGAINST) The New Testament
YES!
YHVH WINS !
LIFE: (TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT)
Against LIFE: talmud

 

[danny ski]

Lol!! Even cursory reading of the Mishnah clearly shows that its contents predate Christianity by a good chunk of time. The Talmud was WRITTEN down late, that is all. The "opinions" here are really par for the course regarding Christian treatment of our heritage. Well, at least you can't censor or burn it, anymore. Bash it away!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahshua(Yahweh's Salvation) opposed
the traditions of the pharisees that opposed TORAH.

(YHVH always opposed the talmud and was against those who practiced it against TORAH)

 

[ChavaK]

Lol!! Even cursory reading of the Mishnah clearly shows that its contents predate Christianity by a good chunk of time. The Talmud was WRITTEN down late, that is all. The "opinions" here are really par for the course regarding Christian treatment of our heritage. Well, at least you can't censor or burn it, anymore. Bash it away!

Yeah, I don't get it. For something that fancies itself as Judaism, it certainly is against much of it...while seemingly to understand so little of it.

 

[AbbaLove]

Yeah, I don't get it. For something that fancies itself as Judaism, it certainly is against much of it...while seemingly to understand so little of it.

This is not the first time the juxtaposition between 'Messianic' and 'Judaism' has been eluded to as an oxymoron; especially by Torah Observant Jews that reject Yeshua as Israel's Messiah.

MJs (Messianic Jews), like the Apostle Paul, attempt to resolve the pros and cons of Judaism through the eyes of Yeshua not through the eyes of the Pharisees which led to Rabbinic Judaism and the Talmud. Don't assume that the Apostle Paul didn't "understand so little of it."

The Best Way To Bless Israel Is With Yeshua Not The Talmud
​

 

[Open Heart]

I'm not sure what we are supposed to be agreeing or disagreeing with, since you made no statement in your poll.

Based on the title of your thread, can I guess that you are wondering if we agree or disagree that Oral Torah (Talmud, Rabbinic traditions, etc.) is in opposition to the NT?

I would have to say I strongly disagree.

First of all, the basis of Oral Torah is laid out in Deuteronomy 17:8-13, and I don't believe that the NT does away with the Torah (nor can such be argued in here).

Secondly, Yeshua taught his disciples to observe Oral Torah: In Matthew 23:2-3 Yeshua states that the Pharisees have the authority given in Deuteronomy 17:8-13. He then instructs his followers to observe and obey all that they teach. ALL that they teach -- that would HAVE to include Oral Torah.

Thirdly, Yeshua instructs the Pharisees to observe Oral Torah. In Matthew 23:23, Yeshua tells the Pharisees to observe the basics of the Torah (justice, mercy) and ALSO the Oral Torah (the specifics of the spice tax).

Fourth, Many of Yeshua's sayings are not original, but are drawn from Oral Torah. For example, "The Sabbath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath" comes from Oral Torah.

Fifth, many of the so-called verses used against Jewish tradition are misunderstood. For example, the passage in which the Pharisees confront Yeshua about some of his followers not washing their hands before eating is usually used to prove that Yeshua was against the washing of hands. Nope. First of all, the very text itself proves that the rest of Yeshua's disciples DID wash their hands. Further, if Yeshua himself didn't wash his hands, we all know very well that the Pharisees would not have hesitated to bring this up. Therefore we can conclude that Yeshua himself washed his hands. That's the model.

 

[ChavaK]

​

This is not the first time the juxtaposition between 'Messianic' and 'Judaism' has been eluded to as an oxymoron; especially by Torah Observant Jews that reject Yeshua as Israel's Messiah.

MJs (Messianic Jews), like the Apostle Paul, attempt to resolve the pros and cons of Judaism through the eyes of Yeshua not through the eyes of the Pharisees which led to Rabbinic Judaism and the Talmud. Don't assume that the Apostle Paul didn't "understand so little of it."

The Best Way To Bless Israel Is With Yeshua Not The Talmud
​

I'm not talking about Paul because I have no idea what he has said. I am referring to certain members of the forum.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm not talking about Paul because I have no idea what he has said. I am referring to certain members of the forum.

Paul taught what Yahweh Revealed to him through Yahshua HaMashiach.
TORAH, GRACE, MESSIAH CRUCIFIED for our sins and the sins of the whole worlds.
"The penalty for sin is death".
He Redeemed those who are His by His Blood ...
He is the Atonement... Perfect....

 

[ralliann]

First of all, the basis of Oral Torah is laid out in Deuteronomy 17:8-13, and I don't believe that the NT does away with the Torah (nor can such be argued in here).

Acts 13 says judges were given them after the land was given by lot.....for a period of 450 years, until Samuel the prophet. Then after that kings.

18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

 

[Open Heart]

Paul taught what Yahweh Revealed to him through Yahshua HaMashiach.
TORAH, GRACE, MESSIAH CRUCIFIED for our sins and the sins of the whole worlds.
"The penalty for sin is death".
He Redeemed those who are His by His Blood ...
He is the Atonement... Perfect....

No offense, but I don't see what that has to do with what she said.

 

[CherubRam]

Yeah, I don't get it. For something that fancies itself as Judaism, it certainly is against much of it...while seemingly to understand so little of it.

I am surprised that you would acknowledge that. Anyway, good for you.

 

[Open Heart]

Acts 13 says judges were given them after the land was given by lot.....for a period of 450 years, until Samuel the prophet. Then after that kings.

18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

The judges were one time period. The Levites, as well as the 70 elders (Sanhedrin) that Moses appointed, began before the judges, continued through the judges, and carried on after the judges until Yeshua's day, where Yeshua considered that it was now the Pharisees who sat in the seat of Moses and carried on the authority of the elders and Levites in Deuteronomy 17. I tend to use Elders/Judges/Pharisees/Rabbis interchangably because essentially all of these carried the same authority to interpret the Law.

 

[Open Heart]

I am surprised that you would acknowledge that. Anyway, good for you.

MJ claims to be a Judaism. It is distressing to me as an MJ to see such ignorance of what Judaism is, as well as animosity towards what they think Judaism is, by a few certain individuals in here. They recycle the same anti-Judaism topics over and over. You would think they were members of regular churches.

 

[ralliann]

The judges were one time period. The Levites, as well as the 70 elders (Sanhedrin) that Moses appointed, began before the judges, continued through the judges, and carried on after the judges until Yeshua's day, where Yeshua considered that it was now the Pharisees who sat in the seat of Moses and carried on the authority of the elders and Levites in Deuteronomy 17. I tend to use Elders/Judges/Pharisees/Rabbis interchangably because essentially all of these carried the same authority to interpret the Law.

The elders were before the law from Sinai. Egypt had elders too.
Ge 50:7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,
Ex 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:
When in scripture did King David or Solomon consult anyone from a Sanhedrin? He David, consulted the high priest, or prophets etc.. The people wanted their kings to Judge them like the nations did.

 

[Open Heart]

When in scripture did King David or Solomon consult anyone from a Sanhedrin? He David, consulted the high priest, or prophets etc.. The people wanted their kings to Judge them like the nations did.

Lots and lots of things happened that were not recorded. Generally speaking, if it was ordinary, it didn't get recorded. What got written down were the things that were extraordinary. So we can conclude, NOT that David and Solomon didn't consult the Sanhedrin, but rather that the rulings of the Sanhedrin during the days of David and Solomon were relatively non-controversial.

 

[CherubRam]

MJ claims to be a Judaism. It is distressing to me as an MJ to see such ignorance of what Judaism is, as well as animosity towards what they think Judaism is, by a few certain individuals in here. They recycle the same anti-Judaism topics over and over. You would think they were members of regular churches.

I have read some of the oral traditions, thinking, OK, that's good; then all of a sudden the Rabbi goes of the deep end. I certainly hope that never happens to me. I think it is good for people to admit that there are some problems. I think very few people agree with me and make excuses, or lie.

 

[Open Heart]

I have read some of the oral traditions, thinking, OK, that's good; then all of a sudden the Rabbi goes of the deep end. I certainly hope that never happens to me. I think it is good for people to admit that there are some problems. I think very few people agree with me and make excuses, or lie.

Remember that just because something is in the Talmud doesn't necessarily mean it is part of Oral tradition. The Talmud records whole arguments and opposing opinions, including positions that didn't become Jewish law.

Safe to say that Jewish law is not static but is continually being interpreted. I have a preference for Orthodox halakha, but there are just a few things in it that need to go. For example, now that we have the science of psychology, we understand OCD. We can understand why someone would feel distressed not having a ritual of dressing and need to know which shoe to put on first. We might also have the wisdom to see that what is good for the community cannot be dictated by what is good for the few, especially when the few are being are being driven by mental illness. IOW you don't burden everyone with a law in order to cater to that minority with irrational anxieties.