The systematic classification of life

[WaZoO]

Always type your big posts in word, it automatically creates backups very frequently.

I always type my posts in word, even shorter ones, that way I can start replying before the reply box loads.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Always type your big posts in word, it automatically creates backups very frequently.

I always type my posts in word, even shorter ones, that way I can start replying before the reply box loads.

Word sometimes alters the formatting. I keep refreshing a backup copy of all my larger posts in Outlook Express, only because it keeps all the links and pics and bolded bits uncorrupted when transferring back and forth.

 

[Lilandra]

You believe that, but you don't feel you're deceived?
I never had sex with my kids. My kids have never even seen me drunk. Nor would I allow them to be raped. Nor would I murder them, or eat them. Nor would I murder anyone else's kids, or rip babies out of the womb. Nor would I enslave children, nor would I have awarded them to my men as sex objects. Nor would I have damed them to be torn apart by bears. No, the very best folks in the Bible are all a whole lot more evil than (hopefully) either of us.

rip babies out of the womb? Who does that in the Bible? I think there was a story about some women who were starving to death because of war and they ate one of the children but when it came time to eat the other the other woman refused and hid the child. These were minor people in the Bible and they aren't portrayed as heroines.

That stuff goes on in the world today doesn't mean you are I condone it, it's just reality. The world has a whole bunch of really evil people in it.

 

[Aron-Ra]

rip babies out of the womb? Who does that in the Bible?

Menahem, son of Gadi did exactly that in 2nd Kings 15:16. In Amos 1:13, God curses the children of Ammon for doing this to the women of Gilead. But in Hosea 13:16, he threatens to have the same thing happen to the women of Sumaria just because they didn't believe in that particular god anymore.

I think there was a story about some women who were starving to death because of war and they ate one of the children but when it came time to eat the other the other woman refused and hid the child. These were minor people in the Bible and they aren't portrayed as heroines.

But Lot, Noah, Moses, Abraham, and Jesus were all considered heroes.

Abraham heard a voice in his head telling him to murder his son, and he was going to do it, (just like Deanna Laney) until the voice said something along the lines of "Just kidding. I just wanted to see if you would really do it."

Noah was the only man worth saving, yet after killed everyone in the world, (to correct an error due to his own lack of foresight) Noah became a naked old drunk cursing his kids just for trying to help him.

Lot was also the only man worth saving, and once he was rid of his wife, he got drunk and had incest with his daughters. Oncedeceived seems to thing it was their idea, but I'm just not that gullible.

Moses had hundreds of children murdered or molested (in a forced virginity test) right in front of their wailing mothers. And he ordered little boys to be butchered while these same mothers continued to scream. Then he criticized his own men for not being cruel enough to the survivors of his horrific pillage. So he had each of these imprisoned women run through, and he gave the traumatized pre-teen daughters away to his men to use however they liked.

Then of course there's Jesus, who promised that belief in him would destroy families, severing children from their parents and husbands from their wives. And of course, little Yahweh Jr. has to let people kill him in order for daddy to decide that they're worthy of forgiving for the "crime" of wanting to know right from wrong. All of this is to me insanity, and not at all indicative of anything godlike.

That stuff goes on in the world today doesn't mean you are I condone it, it's just reality. The world has a whole bunch of really evil people in it.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the horrible attrocities that go on in the Bible, which God not only condones but commands to happen. All through the Bible, we see scenes of parents killing their children, and sometimes even eating them. In both the Torah and the Talmud, we even see children being devalued, abused, or used for sex, even by some of God's most favorite characters. Then we see God's "chosen" people deliberately murdering children, sometimes while they're still inside the womb. In Genesis 38, we see that God considers wasted sperm worthy of a death sentence. But in Exodus 21:22, we see again that God values man's seed more than he does any fruit of the womb, and this is particularly true of the yet-unborn. The penalty for causing a miscarriage is slight next to that of taking the life of someone already born. Abortion without the mother's concent is condoned by God in Numbers 5:11-28, but only as long as it is performed by a priest who must be paid for casting the required spell. I'm sorry, but I see no hint of either devine wisdom, love, morality, or family values evident anywhere in the Bible.

 

[kingreaper]

And if it is, then the One true God, and Creator, that your so called science excludes, then it is grossly in darkness. Also, by excluding Him, as you admit, it becomes impossible to come to any real understanding. You say I exclude some gods. Not really, I acknowledge them as real, and false, as far as creating the world. I also acknowlede science without God as false! Don't think that throwing out the True God with all the minor gods gives some type of grandiose fairness, and believability to something!

Science is meant to allow us to predict things about the natural world, seen as no predictions based on the existance of the Judeo-Christian God can be made, it is entirely irrelevant to science whether or not God exists

Well, Jesus was kinda anti religious as well, as it was the religious people who really had Him killed.

Nope, god knew he was gonna be killed ahead of time, so obviously they didn't have the option of not killing him, because prophecies can't go unfulfilled, therefore they had none of that freaky "free will" you need to argue for God's not being evil, or Jesus' death being there fault

But when it comes to being anti God, and anti Christ, the little cult of so called science puts itself squarely in the position of being utterly unworthy, and incapable, of being taught to God's children! Only as, like the gods you speak of, another belief system in opposition to the truth.

How come many many scientists are christians, and see no conflict?

 

[time]

Hard to visit a thread and overlook this type of trash. Abraham, father of faith, didn't hear some demented voice in his head like some drugged out pagan slob, he heard God. He passed the test, and believed in the goodness, and love, and righteosness of God. Would you listen to a mother you trusted with your life? Well, Abraham knew God well enough to believe He was no monster, and whatever He said to do was the best and loving thing. He was right.
Noah didn't kill everyone in the world (perhaps your english is challenged, and you meant God?) God had to stop things, in order that the great free will experiment with man could later continue. In effect, untold billions who were to come were saved, because of the flood. Man was so bad, otherwise, the whole thing would have had to end. God bless Noah, and I'd have a good stiff drink after the flood year myself under those circumstsnces! As far as his son doing something to him while passed out naked, I guess it likely was some type of hangover from the world God just had to destroy (sodomy?) and He wasn't too happy, so tried to limit the sin's influence on men by deciplining him.
Lot was worth saving from that filthy city, where the men wanted to haul out the angels (come as men) and rape them, from Lot's own house, refusing even Lot's daughter that was offered instead. This city's influence on men was also severly curtailed for our own good. Moses was a great hero who saved millions from slavery, and received on the mountain a message written by the very finger of the Almighty. God Himself sent them manna, and led them with a pillar of smoke by day, or fire by night when it was time to move. Yes, in that old testament time things were harsh, and God had to get tough at times, it was needed.
Jesus dying so men could live forever, the ultimate lamb, or sacrifice of God, all was leading up to may not strike you as 'godlike' but laying down your life for friends is indeed admirable. The only reason He warned us families would be devided, is because some would reject Him, and choose hell, thus deviding families if some were saved, and believers.

You may not see love, wisdom or family values in what you have read, or been told about the bible, but it says God is Love. What would you advise instead? Ra? Perhaps some Egyptian god? How about the 'lord of the flies'? Where do you think I should aquire love, and family values?
My suggestion to any folks out there who feel the same as this, would be to say a little prayer to ask Him into your heart, then you can know Him for yourself, and not get fooled by second hand opinion! He's nothing at all like that!

 

[time]

How come many many scientists are christians, and see no conflict?

I guess either they try putting God into the science as best they can, and into the calculations, or they might not take the bible as actually true, in respect to the creation dates, garden, etc. One can be a believer in Jesus, hence, a christian, yet not really know, or believe the entire bible, I think. But a real bible believing, born again christian would tend to believe the bible.

Nope, god knew he was gonna be killed ahead of time, so obviously they didn't have the option of not killing him, because prophecies can't go unfulfilled,..

Let me guess the Father made em do it? He knew it would have to be done, but it was no picnic. And it was the religious scribes and pharisees who got it done, even freeing the terrorist Barrabas, and insidting on killing the innocent Savior.

it is entirely irrelevant to science whether or not God exists

If it were irrelavent they could try including Him, but it is policy only to exclude Him. So it is not mere irrelavence, but irreverence, and designed to destroy faith in God by the devil, when it comes to evolution, and this big bang hooey. Of course having rejected God in their knowledge, there is nothing left but delusion, even though most of em don't know who's behind it, since most of em can't see, or believe in anything supernatural, even the demons who come up with these doctrines!

 

[Jet Black]

I guess either they try putting God into the science as best they can,

or how about they simply acknowledge that Science is agnostig to God, and Science is the method by which God works.

and into the calculations, or they might not take the bible as actually true, in respect to the creation dates, garden, etc.

true is not synonymous with literal. something can be true and not literally true.

One can be a believer in Jesus, hence, a christian, yet not really know, or believe the entire bible, I think. But a real bible believing, born again christian would tend to believe the bible.

a bible believing christian would believe the bible. well thanks for your grandiose statement of the obvious.

 

[time]

or how about they simply acknowledge that Science is agnostig to God, and Science is the method by which God works.

Acknowlege agnostisism all they want, but you cannot ommit a true creator from the mix, and expect to get it right. One can only claim, there in one's little circle far from the science of God, that their circle is the true science, and the men of science who are in a big circle with God, are somehow not pure like them. Oh, no 'we're so fair, over here in this Godless little true science circle we don't even see where our teachings really come from, that is, the devil, because we're so pure, we don't believe in him either.'
Agnostic science? Yeah there's lot's of that around, but it stinks! Real men of science need to include God in their understanding, knowledge, and calculations. I read somewhere the three wise men, or magi, actually were best described as men who sought true knowledge, (basically, scientists) and were rewarded for their efforts by being able to zero in on the Messiah. God is not against knowledge. Now, Godless, creator denying, 'doctrines of devils' as the bible puts it, that's another matter altogether. 'Ever learning, never able to come to a knowledge of the truth', 'professing themselves to be wise, they became fools' you know, the 'time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine'. No, neither agnostic, nor pagans have a monopoly on science, regardless of their protestations!

 

[Jet Black]

Acknowlege agnostisism[sic] all they want, but you cannot
One can only claim, there in one's little circle far from the science of God, that their circle is the true science, and the men of science who are in a big circle with God, are somehow not pure like them. Oh, no 'we're so fair, over here in this Godless little true science circle we don't even see where our teachings really come from, that is, the devil, because we're so pure, we don't believe in him either.'

ipse dixit. you know you really should stop going around pretending you know what other people thing, when it is extremely clear that you don't.

Agnostic science? Yeah there's lot's of that around, but it stinks!

you don't seem to understand what I said. Science is a study of how things work and says nothing about God. God cannot be tested by science.

Real men of science need to include God in their understanding, knowledge, and calculations.

well ok, I would like you to present the Hall effect and include God in it.

I read somewhere the three wise men, or magi, actually were best described as men who sought true knowledge, (basically, scientists) and were rewarded for their efforts by being able to zero in on the Messiah. God is not against knowledge. Now, Godless, creator denying, 'doctrines of devils' as the bible puts it, that's another matter altogether. 'Ever learning, never able to come to a knowledge of the truth', 'professing themselves to be wise, they became fools' you know, the 'time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine'. No, neither agnostic, nor pagans have a monopoly on science, regardless of their protestations!

why did you just drag a line out of what I said and make up any old tripe? you did not address any of the issues I raised and do not even seem to have understood what I said in the first place.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Lot was also the only man worth saving, and once he was rid of his wife, he got drunk and had incest with his daughters. Oncedeceived seems to thing it was their idea, but I'm just not that gullible.

Oncedeceived didn't comment on the post at all so you are wrong about who said what here.

This thread has degraded a great deal and I am not sure which direction to go. Do I give defense to the allegations against the Bible or do I continue with the Scientific discussion that was the OP's Theme.

If I take the defense route it will completely go in another direction but that direction was taken by Aron-ra himself and so it would not be taking a thread in a direction not began by the OP either. Considering Aron-ra said that religous statements were going to be kept at a minimum, I see these posts as evidence that it might not be the case. Regardless, I feel that this thread has comments that are meant to inflame and by the Christian worldveiw rather offensive. I feel that the Christians for the most part in this thread have not used arguments that were offensive or debasive in manner or tone during the topics of Science and I find it somewhat disillusioning that a thread can't be kept in that vain. Ticks me off to be honest. I am rather disgusted with the whole thing at this point. It gives me no choice I feel but to take a different road and one that will take another flavor which undoubtably will leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

A damn pity if you ask me.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Oncedeceived didn't comment on the post at all so you are wrong about who said what here.

You're right. I confused you with ConsideringLilly. My apologies.

This thread has degraded a great deal and I am not sure which direction to go. Do I give defense to the allegations against the Bible or do I continue with the Scientific discussion that was the OP's Theme.

Hey, you're the one who posted that stuff about Sodom and Gomorrah. I might have been able to avoid further comment on it. But when you mentioned " a punishment from God because of their people's depravity" -it pushed one of my buttons. I apologize for reacting to that. But its not a good idea to bring up the Bible's unjustifiable depravity when talking to me.

If I take the defense route it will completely go in another direction but that direction was taken by Aron-ra himself and so it would not be taking a thread in a direction not began by the OP either. Considering Aron-ra said that religous statements were going to be kept at a minimum, I see these posts as evidence that it might not be the case.

The Bible has no relevance in this conversation at all, and Genesis should never have been brought into this. You and "Time" ar pre-programmed to defend every horrible thing the Bible says, and likely couldn't consider any of the things I point out about that. You're unable to change your mind, and have no argument sufficient to change mine. So there's really no point in discussing it. I'm sorry if you think my comments are meant to inflame. They're not. I find the Bible genuinely disgusting in all sincerity, and I developed that opinion by reading the Bible sincerely expecting to find the truth of God in it. It ain't there, and I cannot imagine how someone like 'Time' thought he was "clearing the record", simply by reciting the standard spin that all the senseless hatred in the Bible is really some kind of loving wisdom. I cannot pretend that all the horror condoned therein was in any way necessary, acceptable, or "holy". I am not trying to inflame or incite you. But whenever someone mentions something about the Bible, I am likely to respond to it honestly, with a perspective that may not be complimentary, but which is accurate.

 

[Raydar]

The Bible has no relevance in this conversation at all, and Genesis should never have been brought into this.QUOTE]
Uhmm, This is Christian Forums, the Bible and what is says about life is relevant to all debates and discussions here.

 

[kingreaper]

I guess either they try putting God into the science as best they can, and into the calculations, or they might not take the bible as actually true, in respect to the creation dates, garden, etc. One can be a believer in Jesus, hence, a christian, yet not really know, or believe the entire bible, I think. But a real bible believing, born again christian would tend to believe the bible.

By definition

Let me guess the Father made em do it? He knew it would have to be done, but it was no picnic. And it was the religious scribes and pharisees who got it done, even freeing the terrorist Barrabas, and insidting on killing the innocent Savior.

Yes, but the prophecyt had been made saying he would be crucified, they had no choice, God's hand forced him to be crucified, because his predictions cannot go unfulfilled

If it were irrelavent they could try including Him, but it is policy only to exclude Him. So it is not mere irrelavence, but irreverence, and designed to destroy faith in God by the devil, when it comes to evolution, and this big bang hooey. Of course having rejected God in their knowledge, there is nothing left but delusion, even though most of em don't know who's behind it, since most of em can't see, or believe in anything supernatural, even the demons who come up with these doctrines!

You don't get it, UNLES THERE IS EVIDENCE OF GOD'S ACTION IN THE WORLD< AND IT CAN BE USED TO MAKE PREDICTIONS SCIENCE CANNOT ADDRES THE QUESTION OF GOD'S INVOLVEMENT

Many many scientists do involve christ, many don't it's not like scientists universally are non-christian

 

[Lilandra]

I find the Bible genuinely disgusting in all sincerity, and I developed that opinion by reading the Bible sincerely expecting to find the truth of God in it. It ain't there, and I cannot imagine how someone like 'Time' thought he was "clearing the record", simply by reciting the standard spin that all the senseless hatred in the Bible is really some kind of loving wisdom. I cannot pretend that all the horror condoned therein was in any way necessary, acceptable, or "holy". I am not trying to inflame or incite you. But whenever someone mentions something about the Bible, I am likely to respond to it honestly, with a perspective that may not be complimentary, but which is accurate.

First, I'm not sure where you and getting all that stuff about Moses commanding people to defile virgins. Second,were the people perfect it wouldn't read as true. The horror is never condoned. The horror is commited by people. And when God has had just about enough of the horror wrath is pored out on some of the more depraved civilizations of the Bible. God uses a prophet in the OT to tell the Israelites ,who had adopted the child sacrifice of some of the surrounding peoples ,that he would never have conceived of asking the Israelites to sacrifice their own children. He was horrified.

So rank yourself above the Judaic God if you like but you are remembering all of your best qualities and ignoring all of the mercy and love of God that is all over the Bible were you to read it without bias. Your conclusion then is based on a fallacy of exclusion.

Either that or Believers are all depraved and you are the only just one.

I agree this is a tangent and not relevant in how you are systemtically categorizing life. Proceed if you wish

 

[Aron-Ra]

The Bible has no relevance in this conversation at all, and Genesis should never have been brought into this.

Uhmm, This is Christian Forums, the Bible and what is says about life is relevant to all debates and discussions here.

The Bible has no relevance to the systematic classification of life. We're discussing taxonomy in this thread. Sodom and Gomorrah have nothing to do with that.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You're right. I confused you with ConsideringLilly. My apologies.

No problem, just wanted to set the record straight.

Hey, you're the one who posted that stuff about Sodom and Gomorrah. I might have been able to avoid further comment on it.

Original quote Aron-ra
And I say that because anytime any supernatural anything dips his hand into the prime material plane to effect some physical change, he should pull his ethereal arm out dripping with physics. In other words, even miracles should leave a trace of themselves.

My response:
Such as the "brimstone" where Sodom and Gommorrah are believed to be? Such as the walls of Jericho that seem to have fallen

I can't remember how to nest quotes like you do.

So actually I was responding to your remark in bringing in this response.

But when you mentioned " a punishment from God because of their people's depravity" -it pushed one of my buttons.

I didn't, it was in the article I presented.

I apologize for reacting to that. But its not a good idea to bring up the Bible's unjustifiable depravity when talking to me.

Aron-ra you have the right to feel anyway you like, but if you are going to try to have a civil conversation with a Christian in which the topic of creation and evolution are discussed I would hope that you would curtail your opinions and remain focused on the issues at hand. I realize it is hard to do. IF you haven't noticed there are many, many threads that are very demoralizing and mocking towards Creationists and I know there are times that I would like to just let go and let my opinions fly but I don't want to intentionally say or do something that could hurt or anger someone. I don't mind a bit if we discuss the issues that are relevant to this thread such as those that speak about Creation/Genesis or evolutionary implications. I wouldn't have minded had you discussed the actual evidence that was being discussed in the article on the dig at Sodom. Or even if you stated your opinion on the reference of depravity...of that certain case. But you did bring in multitudes of instances that then need to be addressed from my point of view. Do you see my point?

The Bible has no relevance in this conversation at all, and Genesis should never have been brought into this.

But my friend you brought it in yourself numerable times in response to things I have said. When I brought up doubts on issues of evolution you then would turn around and claim that I believed in magic or some such remark. I will defend my viewpoint and if you don't want that to happen you have to leave the comments behind that will require a response from me. But as far as Genesis that is an open topic when we are discussing evolution/creation so that is a given.

You and "Time" ar pre-programmed to defend every horrible thing the Bible says, and likely couldn't consider any of the things I point out about that.

Wrong. I am not pre-rogrammed to defend I defend because of who I know God to be. There are a few instances that I find hard to understand and I most certainly can understand how a non-believer would find these things in the light that you do.

You're unable to change your mind, and have no argument sufficient to change mine. So there's really no point in discussing it. I'm sorry if you think my comments are meant to inflame. They're not.

Well then my impassioned materialist, let us forget it and put it behind us...what say you?

I find the Bible genuinely disgusting in all sincerity, and I developed that opinion by reading the Bible sincerely expecting to find the truth of God in it. It ain't there, and I cannot imagine how someone like 'Time' thought he was "clearing the record", simply by reciting the standard spin that all the senseless hatred in the Bible is really some kind of loving wisdom. I cannot pretend that all the horror condoned therein was in any way necessary, acceptable, or "holy". I am not trying to inflame or incite you. But whenever someone mentions something about the Bible, I am likely to respond to it honestly, with a perspective that may not be complimentary, but which is accurate.

Everyone is free to voice their own perspective, but lets all try to remember that we are people out here with feelings and lets all try not to stomp on them. Okay?

 

[Aron-Ra]

First, I'm not sure where you and getting all that stuff about Moses commanding people to defile virgins.

I thought I already explained that. Read Numbers, chapter 31. After pillaging the city of Median, and murdering all of the men therein, Moses was angry that his men let the widows live because they were "used". So he commanded that all the women, and all the little boys should be slaughtered. Remember that in the old Jewish tradition, girls are "children" only if they are younger than 12 years, the age of Bat mitzvah. These little girls had to be tested for their virginity. I won't tell you how they did that. But if they didn't bleed as a result, then they would be murdered too. Only the virgins were allowed to live. And Moses distributed them amongst his men to keep alive "for yourselves". The implication is clear.

Second,were the people perfect it wouldn't read as true.

It doesn't read as true as it is.

The horror is never condoned. The horror is commited by people. And when God has had just about enough of the horror wrath is pored out on some of the more depraved civilizations of the Bible.

When you read Numbers 31, you'll see that God not only condoned this, he ordered Moses to do it.

God uses a prophet in the OT to tell the Israelites ,who had adopted the child sacrifice of some of the surrounding peoples ,that he would never have conceived of asking the Israelites to sacrifice their own children. He was horrified.

That doesn't really explain the Abraham thing, does it?

So rank yourself above the Judaic God if you like but you are remembering all of your best qualities and ignoring all of the mercy and love of God that is all over the Bible were you to read it without bias. Your conclusion then is based on a fallacy of exclusion.

No, but yours is. As I said, I read the Bible without any bias. But I expected to find this mercy and love everyone told me about. But that's not in there. Hatred and horror are all over the Bible. Loving mercy is not evident in that tome.

Either that or Believers are all depraved and you are the only just one.

There are a whole lot more people on my side of this fence than on yours.

&#8220;You can cite a hundred references to show that the biblical God is a bloodthirsty tyrant, but if they can dig up two or three verses that say "God is love," they will claim that you are taking things out of context!&#8221;
--Dan Barker; Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist

 

[FieryBalrog]

First, I'm not sure where you and getting all that stuff about Moses commanding people to defile virgins. Second,were the people perfect it wouldn't read as true. The horror is never condoned. The horror is commited by people. And when God has had just about enough of the horror wrath is pored out on some of the more depraved civilizations of the Bible. God uses a prophet in the OT to tell the Israelites ,who had adopted the child sacrifice of some of the surrounding peoples ,that he would never have conceived of asking the Israelites to sacrifice their own children. He was horrified.

read Numbers 31.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Well then my impassioned materialist, let us forget it and put it behind us...what say you?
Everyone is free to voice their own perspective, but lets all try to remember that we are people out here with feelings and lets all try not to stomp on them. Okay?

Understood and agreed.