The Synergism Safe House

[Knee V]

So, in your view now, how would you define a heretic? Who are the heretics today?

Oz

By Orthodox standards (and historically, I think, the Catholics would believe the same way about this) there are very few people who could technically wear the label of "heretic". For us, one must first be part of the Orthodox camp and then espouse - and not repent of - a heretical teaching. Most people in the world will never meet that criteria.

There are a myriad of heretical teachings out there. Historically, most of those teachings were pertaining to who God is, and most of those were WRT the person of Christ and the Incarnation. And not every wrong belief is a heresy. And in relatively modern times, the Orthodox church has only labeled a non-Orthodox phenomenon a heresy when it has begun to see some infiltration into her borders (e.g., there was a Patriarch of Constantinople who had begun to espouse certain Reformation doctrines that were foreign to Orthodoxy, and those specific doctrines were condemned, and only because of their acceptance by an Orthodox bishop). We don't make a point to get into everyone else's business and define whether their teachings are right or wrong.

Does that answer your question, or have I been too vague?

 

[Hupomone10]

Having come from a Reformed family and having been Reformed myself, I can assure you from experience that those who are adamant about their Calvinism believe that all positions that are not Calvinism are heresy. They believe that Calvinism is synonymous with The Gospel, and thus anything that is not Calvinism is not The Gospel, and thus a false gospel and a heresy.

I commend their dedication to what they believe to be truth, but, of course, I no longer agree with their conclusions.

That is interesting, and it is also the impression I've received since I've been on CF. I had no idea prior to that. And the dividing line seems to be strongest between those that are 5-point Calvinist and anyone less, even Calvinists of 4-point or less.

I get the impression (although they don't say so because it's against CF rules) they believe I've embraced a false gospel simply because I don't believe God regenerates sinners totally apart from faith in Christ, and then plops down faith as a gift on these regenerated sinners whom I suppose are regenerated but still unsaved until they believe. That's not the way I read the book.

I had several pastors/authors of the reformed camp I frequently heard and read through the years but I had no idea that this was the perspective generally in that camp. Even though I never got that impression from their writings personally, I lump the leaders as part of problem because the flock picks up attitudes from leaders, just like a person picks up attitudes from the parents (and peers), just like a child picks up prejudice from family upbringing.

I try hard lately not to let it affect my attitude toward godly writers from the 5-point camp. I was discipled in the Navy by a very godly Calvinist man that made a deep impression on me in many regards. I'll never forget his statement when we were discussing Charles Finney, the great revivalist: "I'm a Calvinist, but I would trade my theology for Finney's results any day."

But when you even mention Finney's name on the Baptist thread, you get a reaction from the reformed brethren similar to spitting in the direction of Oberlin College (where Finney was president) and bowing toward Geneva. I don't want that to be my attitude. I'm not a follower of Finney's theology, I just like some of his writings and his passion for the Lord.

God bless,
H.

 

[Hupomone10]

Yes, that was Hammster at #12 in "Monergism Safe House" at: http://www.christianforums.com/t7553638-2/

"Safe house" loses its meaning of being "safe" when somebody like Hammster took a quote from the "Synergism Safe House" and proceeded to denigrate synergism on the monergism safe house thread.

I don't follow the TULIP promoters and where they go. My position is that I use the biblical evidence to refute them - wherever and whenever they appear.

Sincerely, Oz

I wouldn't let that bother me; people can do the same here. In fact, I plan to use one of their posts as a launching pad for some thoughts on faith, not to criticize the person (whose name I will leave out) but because it illustrates what to me is part of the problem regarding it.

I'm not sure I fit in here either, though, since I believe in OSAS and am a 3 point Calvinist. We'll see I suppose.

Regarding 'heresy:'
I've had disagreements and many discussions with believers over the issue of the filling/baptism of the Spirit and the gift of tongues,and over OSAS, but never did the word 'heresy' or 'heretic' come out, from either side. When a person thinks 'heretic' regarding legitimate Christians who simply believe differently about some fine point of the faith, it simply reminds me of cults because this mentality is actually a lot like that. The 'we're right, we're the only ones that are right, and they are wrong' mentality. I've never even called a Catholic a heretic, and yet a 5-point brother will call a 4-point one a heretic. Interesting, and sad.

 

[OzSpen]

By Orthodox standards (and historically, I think, the Catholics would believe the same way about this) there are very few people who could technically wear the label of "heretic". For us, one must first be part of the Orthodox camp and then espouse - and not repent of - a heretical teaching. Most people in the world will never meet that criteria.

There are a myriad of heretical teachings out there. Historically, most of those teachings were pertaining to who God is, and most of those were WRT the person of Christ and the Incarnation. And not every wrong belief is a heresy. And in relatively modern times, the Orthodox church has only labeled a non-Orthodox phenomenon a heresy when it has begun to see some infiltration into her borders (e.g., there was a Patriarch of Constantinople who had begun to espouse certain Reformation doctrines that were foreign to Orthodoxy, and those specific doctrines were condemned, and only because of their acceptance by an Orthodox bishop). We don't make a point to get into everyone else's business and define whether their teachings are right or wrong.

Does that answer your question, or have I been too vague?

Yep! You got it! It's too vague. Why don't you define the content of, say, two examples of what you would consider to be heretical doctrine being practised today?

Thanks, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I wouldn't let that bother me; people can do the same here. In fact, I plan to use one of their posts as a launching pad for some thoughts on faith, not to criticize the person (whose name I will leave out) but because it illustrates what to me is part of the problem regarding it.

My concern is that we are dealing with an issue of Christian integrity on CF. When a thread is started that is stated to be a 'synergism safe house' and material is copied from that 'safe' house and placed in a 'monergism safe house' to argue against synergism, I regard that as violating Christian integrity. It is NOT a safe house.

It's a serious ethical issue on CF when a poster engages in this hijacking of Christian integrity.

In Christ, Oz

 

[Knee V]

Yep! You got it! It's too vague. Why don't you define the content of, say, two examples of what you would consider to be heretical doctrine being practised today?

Thanks, Oz

I'm curious as to why you want me to label the heretics. That's not really my cup of tea. But I'll bite...

The first one that comes to mind is Oneness doctrine, denying the church's historical understanding of Who her God is, and thus Who her Christ is.

I also see a lot of Judaizing, which was the church's first heresy. It seems to be more alive today than ever before.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm curious as to why you want me to label the heretics. That's not really my cup of tea. But I'll bite...

The first one that comes to mind is Oneness doctrine, denying the church's historical understanding of Who her God is, and thus Who her Christ is.

I also see a lot of Judaizing, which was the church's first heresy. It seems to be more alive today than ever before.

Well, there were a few posters who included the term 'heresy' and you were one of them. Is it wrong for me to ask what you mean by heresy?

I would agree with you that the Oneness doctrine is heretical when compared with Scripture.

What do you see the Judaizers doing today?

Oz

 

[Philothei]

Hupomone 10, Oz and Knee-v please let's keep this as a safe house and no off topic or debating please Or we might need to close this for a while?

 

[Knee V]

.

 

[Hupomone10]

I'm not really sure how I was debating.

Maybe it's best if I not post. I'm not sure what is allowed here and what is not. Looking back at my posts on here, I don't see the debating.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not really sure how I was debating.

Maybe it's best if I not post. I'm not sure what is allowed here and what is not. Looking back at my posts on here, I don't see the debating.

The point is that the three of us have been off topic. The discussion thread is titled, "The Synergism Safe House". In our most recent discussion, we have not been addressing that topic, hence the warning.

If we want to continue this discussion someone of us 3 needs to start a new thread topic.

Oz

 

[Philothei]

Oh...Ok it is one to ask a question or discuss off topic for a few posts but seemed to be going a bit all over except the synergism I apologize if I made anyone uncomfortable y'all. I think we can discuss synergism matters though except all other topics... No worries I did not imply we cannot sway a bit off topic

Yeah I think that one can start a thread on a specific topic if that is what y'all want to discuss

 

[Hupomone10]

The point is that the three of us have been off topic. The discussion thread is titled, "The Synergism Safe House". In our most recent discussion, we have not been addressing that topic, hence the warning.

If we want to continue this discussion someone of us 3 needs to start a new thread topic.

Oz

Gottcha. Synergism. I misunderstood. I thought it was a safe house for those with the synergistic perspective to discuss things. My bad. Not having given an ounce of thought over the years on this topic (or monergism), i will come back later.

 

[Philothei]

The Synergism Safe Haven


Members who choose to participate in this safe-house thread should believe in Synergism, that man is free to cooperate with Divine grace to be regenerated. This thread is for discussing Soteriology from a Synergistic point of view.
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Fellowship posts from all members are welcome. Members who hold to Monergism may not intentionally disrupt this thread.
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This safe house thread is specifically for those members who believe in Synergism.
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The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."
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If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.

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Members who do not hold the Synergism view may post in fellowship only.
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No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Soteriology forum.
​

The CF site-wide rules and Soteriology Rules do apply to this thread.​

Hi folks,

Please this is the thread topic..No debate please in this thread it is in fellowship that you can post here!

 

[Sojourner1]

Mod Hat On​

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A small thread cleanup has been done.
Please remember that this is a safe haven thread and "Members who hold to Monergism may not intentionally disrupt this thread".

Thank you

Mod Hat Off​

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[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

God is going to judge you according to your works.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe it if fully up to the person whether they go to Heaven or Hell. God is going to judge you according to your works, not according to his pre-creation decree.

Why don't you provide Scripture to support your view. Otherwise it is your opinion (your statement, 'I believe'), without any verification.

Oz

 

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

Why don't you provide Scripture to support your view. Otherwise it is your opinion (your statement, 'I believe'), without any verification.

Oz

This is synergism safe house, not a place for debate.

 

[OzSpen]

This is synergism safe house, not a place for debate.

Born,

I also am a supporter of synergism but it is good for us to discuss what Scriptures we use to support our views. I am confident that monergists will be visiting this site even though they cannot participate. Would it not be helpful for all for us to give scriptural support for our position?

Oz

 

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Revelation 20:13

"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is." Revelation 22:12