gaara4158

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul. But is that really true? Virtually everything (and I say virtually because I just don’t know how complete the research currently is) we do and experience has been shown to be made possible by specific functions of the nervous system. Pleasure, pain, joy, anguish, language, motor skills, memory... all can be disabled by damaging or destroying certain parts of the nervous system. There are also people born with certain mental disabilities which are associated with anomalies in the brain.

Why, then, wouldn’t it follow that if the entire brain is destroyed, all experience and mental ability ceases? What is left for a soul to do without a body? Even if you take the radio/signal analogy in which a soul is like a radio signal and the body is like a radio, you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own. And what’s the difference between an immaterial soul that can’t do or experience anything, and nothing at all?

Now, if we don’t have souls, that doesn’t necessarily have atheistic implications, but it does narrow the range of religions that might be possible. I was taught as an SDA that body and soul were one, and were either preserved eternally in Heaven after the Second Coming or destroyed permanently in the lake of fire. There are other denominations with similar ideas.

So, if you believe in an immaterial soul, why?
 

Tom 1

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul. But is that really true? Virtually everything (and I say virtually because I just don’t know how complete the research currently is) we do and experience has been shown to be made possible by specific functions of the nervous system. Pleasure, pain, joy, anguish, language, motor skills, memory... all can be disabled by damaging or destroying certain parts of the nervous system. There are also people born with certain mental disabilities which are associated with anomalies in the brain.

Why, then, wouldn’t it follow that if the entire brain is destroyed, all experience and mental ability ceases? What is left for a soul to do without a body? Even if you take the radio/signal analogy in which a soul is like a radio signal and the body is like a radio, you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own. And what’s the difference between an immaterial soul that can’t do or experience anything, and nothing at all?

Now, if we don’t have souls, that doesn’t necessarily have atheistic implications, but it does narrow the range of religions that might be possible. I was taught as an SDA that body and soul were one, and were either preserved eternally in Heaven after the Second Coming or destroyed permanently in the lake of fire. There are other denominations with similar ideas.

So, if you believe in an immaterial soul, why?

I don't know if I do, in the traditional sense. There's so much that isn't known, however, about what consciousness is (not that there aren't a lot of ideas about it). I think it's important to make a distinction between ideas that makes the rounds and are accepted as useful theories at any given time, and the more circumspect approach of real experts, like David Eagleman for example, who cautions that the tests simply don't exist yet to begin addressing questions like do we have free will and the like.
 
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HTacianas

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul. But is that really true? Virtually everything (and I say virtually because I just don’t know how complete the research currently is) we do and experience has been shown to be made possible by specific functions of the nervous system. Pleasure, pain, joy, anguish, language, motor skills, memory... all can be disabled by damaging or destroying certain parts of the nervous system. There are also people born with certain mental disabilities which are associated with anomalies in the brain.

Why, then, wouldn’t it follow that if the entire brain is destroyed, all experience and mental ability ceases? What is left for a soul to do without a body? Even if you take the radio/signal analogy in which a soul is like a radio signal and the body is like a radio, you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own. And what’s the difference between an immaterial soul that can’t do or experience anything, and nothing at all?

Now, if we don’t have souls, that doesn’t necessarily have atheistic implications, but it does narrow the range of religions that might be possible. I was taught as an SDA that body and soul were one, and were either preserved eternally in Heaven after the Second Coming or destroyed permanently in the lake of fire. There are other denominations with similar ideas.

So, if you believe in an immaterial soul, why?

To believe that something continues on after death is not unusual. You might even say that the ability to contemplate the soul is in itself evidence of the soul. That anecdotal evidence of the soul leads us to ponder the disposition of the soul after our bodies die. The ancients observed the decay of the human body and its eventual returning to dust, where it came from. The soul as existing but in some manner other than a thing that can be physically observed returns also to where it came from.
 
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Moral Orel

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Why, then, wouldn’t it follow that if the entire brain is destroyed, all experience and mental ability ceases? What is left for a soul to do without a body? Even if you take the radio/signal analogy in which a soul is like a radio signal and the body is like a radio, you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own. And what’s the difference between an immaterial soul that can’t do or experience anything, and nothing at all?
Did you ever see James Cameron's "Avatar"?
 
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com7fy8

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul.
The word "soul" seems to at times mean a living being. I personally understand we have a spirit, which is our non-material part of us. And we have our material body. Our soul is our living self, which can experience what is happening spiritually and what we can experience in our bodies. But our soul itself is part of our spirit. But there are things our bodies do, without our feeling them, like squishing food around in our stomachs, or our hearts pumping blood. Likewise, I would say our spirit can have areas which we are not experiencing, with or without activity.

So, I think my soul is my experiencing me, what can consciously experience spiritually and physically.

you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own.
But right now we are meant to experience things which are happening in our bodies. So, if the body is shut down, somehow, I can see that God could have us shut down from conscious spiritual experiencing while the body is shut down. Also, even if we could be experiencing God spiritually during, say a concussion, a lot of spiritual activity could effect our compromised bodies in a bad way while our bodies need to have a chance to heal. So, God could turn the light off, while our bodies have been subjected to trauma, more or less.

about what consciousness is (not that there aren't a lot of ideas about it).
The Bible says God is light, right? And we know how light can bring things to a different level of function or change our conscious experience. So, like this, I think God shines on anything and in everyone, and the nature of the thing or person something or someone react according to each one's true character.

A worm will burn in the sunshine, while a human might benefit. A plant with unhealthy roots will get drier and harder, while in the same sunshine a healthy plant will draw up water and photosynthesize sugar so it can grow. It depends on who or what is getting the sunshine.

It is like this, in how we can react . . . to God. We wake up on the morning, conscious, after God has turned off our conscious activity and processed us during our sleep. And our nature has a lot to do with how we wake up. Each of us is effected differently by sunlight waking us up, plus deeper we are responding more or less well to God shining.

We need how He changes us, then, to become gentle and humble and all-loving like Jesus, so then in all things we can be well, not determined by only by circumstances.
 
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gaara4158

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Was Jake Sully incapable of doing anything without his avatar?
He was incapable of walking without his avatar. And that was because of physical limitations. If Jake Sully were immaterial, the ultimate physical limitation, surely he would also be incapable of doing anything else?
 
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Tom 1

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He was incapable of walking without his avatar. And that was because of physical limitations. If Jake Sully were immaterial, the ultimate physical limitation, surely he would also be incapable of doing anything else?

He could get a good franchise on daytime TV.

 
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gaara4158

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I don't know if I do, in the traditional sense. There's so much that isn't known, however, about what consciousness is (not that there aren't a lot of ideas about it). I think it's important to make a distinction between ideas that makes the rounds and are accepted as useful theories at any given time, and the more circumspect approach of real experts, like David Eagleman for example, who cautions that the tests simply don't exist yet to begin addressing questions like do we have free will and the like.
Is free will impossible without a soul?
 
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gaara4158

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The word "soul" seems to at times mean a living being. I personally understand we have a spirit, which is our non-material part of us. And we have our material body. Our soul is our living self, which can experience what is happening spiritually and what we can experience in our bodies. But our soul itself is part of our spirit. But there are things our bodies do, without our feeling them, like squishing food around in our stomachs, or our hearts pumping blood. Likewise, I would say our spirit can have areas which we are not experiencing, with or without activity.

So, I think my soul is my experiencing me, what can consciously experience spiritually and physically.

But right now we are meant to experience things which are happening in our bodies. So, if the body is shut down, somehow, I can see that God could have us shut down from conscious spiritual experiencing while the body is shut down. Also, even if we could be experiencing God spiritually during, say a concussion, a lot of spiritual activity could effect our compromised bodies in a bad way while our bodies need to have a chance to heal. So, God could turn the light off, while our bodies have been subjected to trauma, more or less.

The Bible says God is light, right? And we know how light can bring things to a different level of function or change our conscious experience. So, like this, I think God shines on anything and in everyone, and the nature of the thing or person something or someone react according to each one's true character.

A worm will burn in the sunshine, while a human might benefit. A plant with unhealthy roots will get drier and harder, while in the same sunshine a healthy plant will draw up water and photosynthesize sugar so it can grow. It depends on who or what is getting the sunshine.

It is like this, in how we can react . . . to God. We wake up on the morning, conscious, after God has turned off our conscious activity and processed us during our sleep. And our nature has a lot to do with how we wake up. Each of us is effected differently by sunlight waking us up, plus deeper we are responding more or less well to God shining.

We need how He changes us, then, to become gentle and humble and all-loving like Jesus, so then in all things we can be well, not determined by only by circumstances.
Interesting. So in your view, the soul might have some unknown function in creating subjective experience apart from the body that will only be active after the body is destroyed?
 
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Tom 1

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com7fy8

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Interesting. So in your view, the soul might have some unknown function in creating subjective experience apart from the body that will only be active after the body is destroyed?
My idea is that the soul is the experiencing part of the spirit.

So, now - - if I am correct, then . . . the soul is already functioning . . . to experience what's happening in the spiritual realm and what the body can have me experiencing.

So, after my body dies, we understand then the soul will be no longer experiencing through my physical body. However, God will resurrect us so our bodies become of His spiritual nature, no longer subject to physical things of this earth experience.

So, we can consider, that if a person trusts in Jesus (Ephesians 2:2), the person's spirit is joined to Jesus (1 Corinthians 6:17) so then Jesus effects our spiritual nature (Ephesians 3:19, Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17-18). And this effects what and how we become able to experience spiritually > our soul changes to be able to experience God in His love (Romans 5:5), and to submit to however God pleases to guide us in His peace (Colossians 3:15). So, our spiritual experiencing can go through a major change, by becoming functional in the harmony and almighty protective power of God's peace (Philippians 4:6-7).

"you will find rest for your souls," Jesus says, in Matthew 11:28-30.

So, not only am I feeling peace, by my soul's function has been transformed so I am actually functioning in God's peace (Philippians 4:6-7) > more and better, as we grow in Jesus in us sharing this with us.

So, yes my soul is able to experience God, but we need for God to first change me over to Him, and tune me and cure my nature > Hebrews 12:4-14, Ephesians 4:31-5:2.

But in sin (separation from God and His way of loving) I was love-dead (Matthew 5:46, Ephesians 2:1), not experiencing God's kind and compassionate and gentle and quiet love making me immune to fear and nasty reacting and driving and dominating emotional stuff of ambition and pleasure seeking. I should say . . . more and more immune in His gentle and quiet love which has "incorruptible beauty" (1 Peter 3:4) making me more or less so I can't be corrupted by wrong emotions and feelings and ways of reacting.

God is quiet, and we can connect and personally share with Him, by being gentle and quiet in His love. My soul does feel this quietness and sensitive sharing (Romans 5:5), which is so kinder than frustration and worry and other anti-love things which I can feel as much as I am tuned to Satan's evil spirit > Ephesians 2:2.

So, my spirit has me involved with God or Satan . . . more or less of each . . . and my soul has me actually feeling and experiencing who I am sharing with. But in the resurrection of our bodies, we will be all the way, one way or the other > reaping so much more (Galatians 6:7-8) than what we have been sowing spiritually. It all will be spiritual . . . of goodness of love, or the horribleness of boredom and loneliness and frustration and anger and hate and possibly those desperate feelings and drives for pleasure (Romans 3:16-17) . . . except ones will no longer have their bodies to use for feeling nice things of this earth's material creation.
 
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cloudyday2

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There is anecdotal evidence for people knowing things that they shouldn't know if their minds are limited to their brains. For example, mothers sometimes seem to know when their children are in crisis even though their children might be far away. Or people sometimes seem to know the future. Science hasn't confirmed these phenomena, but partly that is due to the rarity and unexpected nature of the phenomena.
 
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devolved

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul. But is that really true? Virtually everything (and I say virtually because I just don’t know how complete the research currently is) we do and experience has been shown to be made possible by specific functions of the nervous system. Pleasure, pain, joy, anguish, language, motor skills, memory... all can be disabled by damaging or destroying certain parts of the nervous system. There are also people born with certain mental disabilities which are associated with anomalies in the brain.

Religious language just like scientific language is a primitive abstraction of rather complex reality. What religion would label soul is the functional aspect of human being. In Biblical narrative "soul" means "breath" or some animating force that moves the body and makes it coherent living organism.

Likewise, you seem to axiomatically assert that all what we label as brain function is originating in the brain, and seem to reject that brain may be a conduit container in which what some would call as a "soul" interfaces with the body. On which bases do axiomatically assume the former and reject the latter?

Why, then, wouldn’t it follow that if the entire brain is destroyed, all experience and mental ability ceases? What is left for a soul to do without a body? Even if you take the radio/signal analogy in which a soul is like a radio signal and the body is like a radio, you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own. And what’s the difference between an immaterial soul that can’t do or experience anything, and nothing at all?

That's like asking "What would a gamer do if a gaming console breaks down?" The answer is... you'll find out when it does. People on DMT trips swear that this reality is merely a subset and they travel to other dimensions. Are they right? We don't know. We can make bets and structure axiomatic frameworks. But it's your personal experience that drives your adoption of these frameworks as something that's coherent with your experience of reality.

Now, if we don’t have souls, that doesn’t necessarily have atheistic implications, but it does narrow the range of religions that might be possible. I was taught as an SDA that body and soul were one, and were either preserved eternally in Heaven after the Second Coming or destroyed permanently in the lake of fire. There are other denominations with similar ideas.

That's probably more consistent with Biblical narrative, since it's more consistent with Jewish paradigm and understanding of human metaphysics. Christianity is a layer on top of Judaism, but even in Christianity there are rare and scant references to dualism.

It doesn't however mean that it's the correct perspective on reality. Again, we don't really know. I think the most arrogant assumption would be to say with some certainty either way.

So, if you believe in an immaterial soul, why?

It may not be the same concept as you understand it, but soul is merely a collective continuum of "information" structure that gives rise to human identity. And as such there's a continuum that spans various human lineages that each inherit it in genetic and memetic form. As such, you can't label it as a physical concept, but something that "in-forms structure" and thus provides attributes to that structure.

I think soul is a viable concept in that context, even if we are talking about it in context of Jewish / SDA theology.
 
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Sanoy

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul.
Hopefully I am not engaging in more than I can presently maintain but I didn't want this opportunity to slip away, even if I can only make a single post.

I think we have no choice but to divide brain from mind, and that seems to be where the issue has headed. The law of identity states that two things are identical when everything true of A is also true of B. But there are things true of mind that are not true of my brain, so they can't be the same thing. That doesn't prove substance dualism, but it should prove a type of dualism, including epiphenomenalism, or mind emergent from matter.

So we can get to dualism pretty easily, but I think we can go further. In this thread we hope to acquire or make true claims about the nature of our mind. So if we assume that is possible we can scratch epiphenomenalism out because while that includes an experiential mind that mind does not act as a cause, but rather is itself an effect. So under epiphenomenalism we aren't rationally concluding a statement about a mind, we just have the experience that we are. An emergent mind has a similar problem. Why should the values described by physics and chemistry be such that a mind should result capable of rational thought. What description can be given to how deterministic matter gives rise to free willed, rationally equipped consciousness? Those two possibilities don't allow us to arrive at our goal with much or any confidence. Where substance dualism fails to submit itself to inquiry, it allows us to validly make the inquiry in the first place.
 
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zippy2006

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Some religions accepting a form of dualism say that man is two parts: body and soul. But is that really true? Virtually everything (and I say virtually because I just don’t know how complete the research currently is) we do and experience has been shown to be made possible by specific functions of the nervous system. Pleasure, pain, joy, anguish, language, motor skills, memory... all can be disabled by damaging or destroying certain parts of the nervous system. There are also people born with certain mental disabilities which are associated with anomalies in the brain.

Why, then, wouldn’t it follow that if the entire brain is destroyed, all experience and mental ability ceases? What is left for a soul to do without a body? Even if you take the radio/signal analogy in which a soul is like a radio signal and the body is like a radio, you must concede that a soul can’t do or experience anything on its own. And what’s the difference between an immaterial soul that can’t do or experience anything, and nothing at all?

Now, if we don’t have souls, that doesn’t necessarily have atheistic implications, but it does narrow the range of religions that might be possible. I was taught as an SDA that body and soul were one, and were either preserved eternally in Heaven after the Second Coming or destroyed permanently in the lake of fire. There are other denominations with similar ideas.

So, if you believe in an immaterial soul, why?

It really depends on what one means by "soul," and that is a difficult question to answer. But you seem to be interested in a sort of body-soul dualism where the body is material, the soul is immaterial, and the necessity of each is to be determined by functional considerations.

From that vantage point there are a number of reasons why people believe we have an immaterial aspect to our being, and most of them exist apart from Christianity and religion generally. For Plato it is the ability to learn and acquire knowledge; For Aristotle and Thomas it is the ability of the intellect to abstract into conceptual perfections; For Descartes it is the nature of the mind and identity; For Walker Percy it is semiotic--the ability to use language and have meaning; For others our mathematical, technological, or artistic potential evinces the existence of an immaterial faculty; For others the freedom of the will requires an immaterial faculty. For most of these thinkers it is an immaterial act that is used to infer the existence of an immaterial faculty which we possess. For some that immaterial faculty exists after death, usually in a partial or incomplete state.

For Christians the primary religious motivation seems to be the general resurrection at the end of time and the need to have some thread which connects the identity of the person from death to the end of time. For Indians the theory of reincarnation presupposes an underlying substratum that is transferred from life to life. There are doubtless other religious considerations from other traditions.

My favorite argument is Walker Percy's study of the way we enter into the meaning of language which he approaches through the case of Helen Keller.

 
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Quid est Veritas?

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We actually haven't demonstrated that many functions. It is a mistaken belief we have, mostly driven by presuppositions. We have shown associations, but we haven't proven them, as such. If you assign a mechanistic primacy to brain activity, then you could conclude that is where those functions reside, but that is essentially a circular argument.

Measured Brain Activity has not been demonstrated to correlate very well with consciousness though. They did studies recently in Australia, in which EEGs and fMRI was done on people under muscle relaxation, but receiving no Anaesthesia. So they were awake, but couldn't move (except for isolated forearm technique), with full recall. Yet, the EEGs and so, showed what would be the equivalent of someone under deep sedation or Anaesthesia, as we understood it (delta waves and sleep spindles, etc.). Likewise, studies utilising meditation have shown marked fMRI changes, which should indicate decreased activity, while subjects subjectively experience enhanced sensation. There are even those studies trying to correlate decision-making with brain activity (that controversially has occasionally concluded activity precedes conscious awareness, and thus concluded decisions were 'made' after the brain already started doing the thing). These have also only shown tenuous connections as such.

That is the point of this 'emergent property' theory of Consciousness. We can't demonstrate where it resides, or how it works, but we conclude it must be in the brain somehow on a priori grounds - and therefore label it an emergent phenomenon.

What we have shown is areas of the brain are associated with motoric function (the parietal homunculus for instance), or language and writing (Broca's area and Exne's area), language (Wernicke's area), emotion (Lymbic system), etc. When damaged, those functions are gone - but the brain is very plastic, so other areas can often take over some functionality. Sometimes, different systems even use different areas (Chinese logograms and Western Alphabets use different parts of the brain, for instance, or primary and second languages). Rational function has not been demonstrated to lie somewhere, only the methodology of its application - damage an area, and the brain will start making strange associations or such, but the principles underlying have not altered. We can see personality change in brain damage, but more associated with emotional disturbance or absences - not change in function, so much as deficiencies in coping or impulse control.

Further, a lot that is popularly thought 'settled' certainly isn't. We know precious little about how the brain really works. Even something as simple as involuntary breathing, in which we know the full neural pathway, the carotid and PCO2 intra-cerebral triggers; we can't actually explain properly how it works. It is fancy hypothesis and guesswork. A good example is Memory that you mentioned in the OP. We actually don't know how they are stored, just assume they are. Some hypothesise that the act of remembering creates them, others that it is stored in the hippocampus - though new theories rather suggest a more diffuse frontal cortex role for storage. The old idea of 'short' and 'long-term' memory also seem mistaken, as perhaps it is a functional divide. There has been a recent massive overhaul here. Sufficed to say, we know much less than popularly assumed.

So arguing that the soul is superfluous is really putting the cart before the horses. It is assuming the truth of a certain materialist hypothesis, that certainly has a lot of scientific evidence that doesn't support it, too. You can always square the circle by weasel terms like Emergent Property or a good old fashioned Petitio Principii, but it has by no means been demonstrated. So such an argument certainly holds little water, and amounts to a Science of the Gaps, assuming we will be able to support it later or placing our piecemeal and contradictory knowledge in a framework built around it. The idea itself, that we have significantly demonstrated the mental functions dependant solely on the material brain, is flawed.

Besides, the Dualism you suggest is a much later idea. Descartes created an I and a mechanistic body. Christianity with its Body, Soul and Spirit seems to assume all three (or 2?) must be present - hence Paul's dead in Christ, or the OT dead and living Nephesh and Ruach. It is not separable things in practice, though we do so in theory, so the radio or driven car are very poor analogies. Hence Christianity teaches that we shall receive glorified bodies at the Parousia.

I don't expect the soul or spirit to be markedly distinct from the body so closely associated with it, and neither does my religion traditionally teach this. That that body acts in conjunction with the soul, any religious person agrees with, so to see material factors associated with it, is to be expected. To assume only the material operative, is just that - an assumption, which requires excusing significant phenomena, like consciousness, and erecting hypotheses like its emergent nature or applying quantum probability, that is going far beyond what actual empiric evidence we have.

Traditionally the soul and spirit are said to exist. I see no reason to conclude this a worse explanation than the fanciful house of cards built by materialism, if you actually know upon what they base it. If anything, as it maintains our ability to Reason, while materialism inevitably does not (relegating it to determinism or non-veridical evolutionary differentiation), the Soul/Spirit hypothesis at least doesn't invalidate the reasoning used to reach it. So the Soul/Spirit maintains logical coherence and validity, while the Materialist Brain cannot conclude its arguments to be valid, and in fact undercuts it. To me, Reason seems my primary means of reality testing, so the one telling me my Reason is necessarily invalid, certainly cannot be supported as well as the other.
 
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gaara4158

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Alright, we have some very thoughtful responses here that have brought to my attention how very simplistic and limited my initial conception of souls as ghost-things that leave the body and continue to experience things after death has been. Thank you all for the time and attention you have afforded my thesis, I will be taking some time to digest it all and adjust accordingly.
 
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Sanoy

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Alright, we have some very thoughtful responses here that have brought to my attention how very simplistic and limited my initial conception of souls as ghost-things that leave the body and continue to experience things after death has been. Thank you all for the time and attention you have afforded my thesis, I will be taking some time to digest it all and adjust accordingly.
I learned a lot from Quid. When you consider these things, please also consider this. We make preparation for our bodies because we hope that there is a future in store for them. Make also preparation for your soul, because there may also be a future in store for it.
 
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