The state, marriage, and tradition

[NotreDame]

I'm not sure how that would even apply.

Any couple can choose to get a common law marriage, which you could divorce at any time, for any reason, like you can now.

Which is why marriage means very little under these pagan rules.

Additionally, any couple can choose to get married under religious law, but then they would be under that religious institution.

I don't see any problem with this. If you don't want to have to follow the rules of the religious institution, then don't get married by them. Get married by the state in common law marriage. Then when your wife cuts her hair too short, or burns the meatloaf, you can divorce her like the pagans do.

This system would seem to give everyone what they want. Right? Gays can go get married as much as they want from the state, and Christians can get married by the church.

This system respects everyone's beliefs, and respects everyone's religious values.

Any couple can choose to get a common law marriage, which you could divorce at any time, for any reason, like you can now.

Any couple? I’m incredulous. Only 15-16 states recognize common law marriages now. “Any couple” in one of those 15-16 states recognizing common law marriage can “choose to get a common law marriage.”

Otherwise, I do agree, marriage has been cheapened by the ease with which a divorce can be obtained. Prior to contemporary divorce laws, obtaining a legal divorce was not easy.

 

[Belk]

I would say it is the other way round. Longevity is tied to these concepts. Longevity happens when you have these things in a marriage.

There's a book by Alex Spanos, he's dead now, about him growing up. His parents got married, and they had all kinds of issues. But in the end they stayed together. Alex talks about seeing them, and learning what it meant to be married. All those things, he had growing up, because in that day and age, you stuck it out. You couldn't just get a divorce. And Alex ended up a multi-million dollar real-estate developer.

If that situation had happened today, they would have gotten a divorce, and Alex would have been raised in poverty, by his single mother, living off food stamps, having all kinds of behavior issues, maybe drugs, or a criminal record.

Now you say that is hypothetical, and I agree, but the statistics do support that assumption.

The statistics support a lot of assumptions. That is not necessarily a good reason to believe them likely. A quick google search turns up this

Spanos, who played a large part in mediating the conflict between his parents, stated that his turbulent home life was the reason he strove to provide a stable environment for his own children.

Alex Spanos - Wikipedia

Spano's claims seem to point to A different conclusion. He did not put a lot of effort into his life because his parents modeled good behavior but for the exact opposite reason. He is also, I would point out, a single example who defied a lot of odds.

My point though is, loyalty, stability, and so on.... these are learned.

Babies do not come out of the womb, and the doctor looks down and says "Oh this is a loyal one!".

And where do children learn loyalty, and keeping promises, and stability? From their parents.

And when parents can just ditch their spouse because of "incompatibility", they teach their kids that is what marriage is about. You just hang out, until you have a problem, and you deal with the problem by ditching the other person.

I would agree that these are learned behaviors. Where I disagree is that these are behaviors that will be taught simply if people are forced to stay together. People do not model good behaviors simply because they are together. If anything people stuck in unhappy marriages are going to model negative behavior. Jealousy, infidelity, aggression are all correlated with people in unhealthy relationships.

I think it is because people place to much emphasis on marriage. Relationships are hard work and you need to have an understanding of yourself and what you want. However we are feed the concept that if you really love the other person it will all magically work out. People enter into marriage without any idea of what it is going to take to make it work. I guess in a way I am agreeing with you here. I think we need people to realize what marriage is going to entail and how to make it work prior to entering into the contract. I disagree that forcing people to stay together will have this effect.

Yeah, I completely agree with everything you said there. Marriage is completely over romanticized, and people walk into these relationships, with Disney glasses on, thinking John Smith is going to sweep in, and take Pocahontas, to her castle in England, and everything is going to work out.

Parents need to keep their daughters away from garbage romantic movies. Harvard did a study some years back, showing that woman with the highest expectations of marriage, before getting married, were the most miserable in marriage. And women who had the lowest expectations, were the most happy.

At any rate, I understand that you disagree with keeping people together will have this effect... but I think it would. Either it would, or it would keep people apart, and either outcome is better than the current system.

I do disagree. I have seen no data that supports your contention. I have seen a fair amount the discredits it. There is a reason things have changed for the better as we progress as a society.

Take that guy with the 9th marriage, and already engaged to another girl, before divorcing his 9th wife.

That guy will never know what it takes to have a good marriage. Never. He will be lonely and miserable until he dies. Why? Because he has learned that the way you deal with a problem with his spouse, is to divorce them and find a new spouse. He's learned that from the system.

Now if you say to this guy, okay new deal... you marry this chick, and you are stuck with her for life. He is going to do one of two things. A: Stay single... which is perfect. Now he isn't damaging more women, and pumping out children he refuses to take care of. B: He'll marry this chick, and then he'll be forced to figure out how to make it work.

Forced to figure it out how? You have already categorically stated he will never be happy. How is he going to suddenly figure this out simply because he can't get divorced. If he has not figured it out by trial number 9 I find it unlikely changing is ability to get married is suddenly going to clue him in.

And by the way, I have known guys that did this. Of course they are all old now, because no one does that these days.

We had this old guy at another church, and he married some girl, and they had a terrible time. But... divorce wasn't a big option back then, and they just stayed together. Finally all the kids left the house, and this man came home to his wife one night and told her.... the kids are gone, it's just us now, so we can either stay angry with each other and live out our lives like this, or we can choose to be happy with each other.

He said their marriage had never been happier, and he only regrets not having that conversation sooner.

And I am glad for him. This one anecdote does not negate all the data that shows keeping people in unhealthy relationships had a lot of negative effects.

Again... that same couple in my generation where divorce is universal and accepted, they would have divorced, and destroyed their family, and their kids would have all kinds of problems, and been likely to divorce too.

So Yes, I really do believe that keeping people together, will work out most of these problems.

I do not see the data as supporting this. Keeping people in unhappy relationships will not improve things. Helping people to have better relationships will.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

But again... my proposal would eliminate any complaint about this. If you don't want a religious marriage, my proposal includes a State marriage. Just go get a state marriage, and you don't need to worry about it.

I have no interest is bothering with pagan marriages. They can do whatever they want. My proposal would only affect religious people who want a marriage that has meaning.

As for tax benefits.... I don't think there should even be an income tax. Moreover, If there is an income tax, it should be a flat tax, so that everyone everywhere, pays the exact same percentage of their income in tax.

Under your system, what would happen to people who have religious marriages and leave the religion, renounce their faith? Do they get a "get out of marriage free card"? And if they do, what would stop people from just doing that?

 

[DaisyDay]

Churches can currently police their members and kick them out, or shun them, if they stray. For instance, Orthodox Jewish people have to obtain a get to be considered divorced by their religious community.

Underage people can get married with their parents' permission. In cult religions, they get this permission or the whole family gets kicked out of the community.