• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The state, marriage, and tradition

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by 98cwitr, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

    +11,627
    Canada
    Freethinker
    Married
    In the early church marriage was between the two loving people and usually involved only the immediate families and perhaps a blessing from a priest if one was available. The state was not involved. Marriages involving royals and rich and powerful families did involve the church usually because such marriages involved the cementing of families involving wealth and power. It was not until the 11th century that Christianity insisted that all marriages be officiated by the church. This was largely just another measure of control by church authorities. Most Christians today have no idea just how much control the church had over the day to day lives of individuals.
     
  2. devin553344

    devin553344 Enlighten our lives dear Lord

    +1,306
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    On the point, one flesh is to create another, male and female. Male and female a complete biological creation source.
     
  3. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

    +1,045
    United States
    Deist
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Even if it’s trans-man/trans-woman?
     
  4. CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

    CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN .

    +2,328
    United States
    Seeker
    Single
    US-Others
    Which is no heterosexuals business. It amusing to see people getting crazy over gay people getting married .
     
  5. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,942
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Everybody thinks that until it's time to bake a cake.
     
  6. CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

    CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN .

    +2,328
    United States
    Seeker
    Single
    US-Others
    Because some Christians are freaking out about gay marriage. When it has nothing to do with them.
     
  7. CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

    CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN .

    +2,328
    United States
    Seeker
    Single
    US-Others
    Yes, I have to except Christians in my line of work. How painful. Not.
     
  8. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,942
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    ???

    Do you want to take another swing at writing that?
     
  9. devin553344

    devin553344 Enlighten our lives dear Lord

    +1,306
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Good point. I don't think the state (if it were biologist governed) could say anything about that?
     
  10. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +3,693
    Atheist
    Married
    Biologically, lifelong monogamy is quite rare in nature. And genetic monogamy is rarer still (the bonded pair mate only with each other. As opposed to social monogamy where the pair live together, but may mate outside the pair bond.) Among the hominoids, only humans and gibbons are monogamous. The others are either semi-solitary (like orangutans. Males and females generally live apart, only meeting up for mating.) Or they're tribal (like chimps and gorillas. And baboons, too. A dominant male mates with a dominant female and several subordinate females.) And then there are the bonobos. Where females are dominant and everyone mates, or engages in other kinds of sex-play with everyone else.

    If anything, OT marriage is more like the chimp/gorilla model. A man may have one wife, but if he has the means, he can also have concubines. Just as Hagar was Abraham's concubine. And even though his wife Sarah sent her away, God protected her and her son Ishmael. Who (according to tradition) became the ancestor of the Arab people. The ancient Hebrew kings had harems. In the NT, Jesus says divorce is only permissible for sexual infidelity. No exception for abuse, drug/alcohol addiction, criminality, or other bad behavior. And to Paul, it's better to marry than to burn. Which is pretty cynical.

    The point of all this is that neither biology, nor ancient scripture, are particularly useful guides for marriage in the 21st century.
     
  11. DaisyDay

    DaisyDay blind squirrel

    +8,417
    United States
    Unitarian
    Married
    US-Others
    Might you be thinking of Quakers, not Amish? There is also "common-law" marriage.

    People other than Christians get married; no religious ceremony is necessary. Marriage has existed before Christianity and exists in countries where few, if any, Christians reside. It wasn't until the 16th Century that the Church took over marriage legally in Western nations.
     
  12. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

    +1,409
    Baptist
    Married
    I think you're right there.

    Many states don't have such laws

    I'm not sure of your point, but the process of "marriage" could still be apparent and legitimate without state recognition. Is the State god for some?
     
  13. DaisyDay

    DaisyDay blind squirrel

    +8,417
    United States
    Unitarian
    Married
    US-Others
    And many do.
    "Legitimate" for what purpose?

    State legitimacy carries legal advantages (and disadvantages) entirely separate from religious or spiritual legitimacy. Everyone is covered by the state, but only those who adhere to a particular religion are covered by that religion.

    Why do you want to reserve the word and concept of "marriage" only for straight Christians when it has much broader, more widespread usage? Privately, you can do that if you so desire, but you seem to want to make it the law of the land.

    It might be for all I know, but not for anyone I do know.
     
  14. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +3,693
    Atheist
    Married
    The state is the civil authority for legal matters. A state-issued marriage license is needed for things like a lower tax rate for a married couple filing a joint return. And state laws prescribe the default setting for things like medical decision making for an incapacitated spouse, ownership of assets, inheritance, and child custody. Not to mention the spousal immunity from giving adverse testimony (which a spouse can voluntarily waive. At least in federal court.) If these are desirable, then I suppose they could all be applied to non-state recognized marriages. But at lot of laws would have to change.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  15. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

    +1,045
    United States
    Deist
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Ironically, birds, the freest of all God’s creatures, tend to form monogamous pair-bondings.
     
  16. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +3,693
    Atheist
    Married
    True. But it's mostly altricial birds that pair bond for the longer term. These are species in which the newly hatched chicks are less developed, lack down feathers, can't fly, eyes are closed, and must be fed by the parents. The male is necessary to find food, and help raise the chicks. These include most songbirds and raptors. Monogamous pair bonding is less common in precocial species. Where the chicks are feathered, can stand, walk, and feed themselves soon after hatching. So there's less need for a father to hang around. Most poultry species--chickens, ducks, and turkeys are precocial. And mixed levels of chick development are seen in other species. But this is off-topic.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  17. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

    +13,549
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    Odd that you mentuon men only.
     
  18. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,942
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  19. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

    +13,549
    United States
    Atheist
    Private
    And yet you myopically focused on men.

    Why do people think parroting my verbiage is a sign of cleverness? :scratch:
     
  20. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,942
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    And I explained my reasoning for that. And yet, somehow we’re still talking about this.

    It looks like you’re focusing on them more than I am.
     
Loading...