The Spectacular Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[jgr]

Jgr, you referred to Jeremiah 25, 43. In both of those particular passages God specifically stated that he was sending the Babylonians as His instrument. Was God the God of the Babylonians? If not, why would you consider Jesus the prince of Romans?

Douggg,

If pagan Babylonians could be described as God's servants for purposes of executing His judgments, why could not pagan Romans be described as Messiah's people for purposes of executing His judgments?

Keep in mind also the role and responsibility of Messiah's people the Jews themselves in the destruction.

Either scenario is sufficient to fulfill Daniel's prophecy.

 

[jgr]

The new covenant is not found in Daniel 9 because the new covenant includes the resurrection.

Start backtracking in Daniel 9 to find out what "the" covenant is. The messiah is cutoff, but that is not in itself the new covenant - because there is no new covenant without the resurrection. What Christian believes only that Jesus died for our sin? Christians 100% believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

The disciples did not go out preaching anything until after the resurrection.

Not sure I follow your rationale. Messiah was cut off, i.e. crucified, in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, and resurrected three days later. All of the elements and requisites of the New Covenant became reality during the 70th week.

 

[mike buckman]

It takes page upon page, chapter upon chapter, and book upon book to support pre-trib. I'm very impressed that you can't see the extensive contradictions and fabrications in it. Pre-trib is such an extensively fabricated doctrine that it takes so much time refuting it. None of us want to go through tribulation, we have no choice...Jesus or his apostles never said anyone would exempt from it.

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. This passage (2) alone thoroughly debunks pre-tribulationism.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are several example in the bible where God didn't remove people from their troubles but help them through them.

Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it?
Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it?
Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them?

Amen.

I would like to add that for many of us, when we see false doctrines in the church it troubles us. It is not that we desire to suffer the tribulation, it is that we would not have Gods word perverted and the evil one given a foothold to deceive anyone, especially not the babes in Christ.

Although there are three main views of when the resurrection event happens, none of these ultimately effect ones salvation at this point. These are just discussions about scripture, which we should be having in order to learn from one another and to help keep our minds and hearts on him and the signs of the times.

It is important to come firmly to grips with the fact that these three main views; Pre trib rapture, mid trib and post trib (last day) are mutually exclusive of one another fully. This means that two of these doctrines are false doctrines. Two of these doctrines can be used by the evil one to draw people astray.

There is one stance to take that will always guard you from deception as the times near their fulfillment, and that stance is this: To be ready to meet the Lord daily (no one knows when they are going to die anyway), but be prepared to hold fast until the end. Until the last day.

Be prepared to give everything to Christ, for this is what we are all called to anyway.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg,

If pagan Babylonians could be God's servants for purposes of executing His judgments, why could not pagan Romans be Messiah's people for purposes of executing His judgments?

Keep in mind also the role and responsibility of Messiah's people the Jews themselves in the destruction.

Either scenario is sufficient to fulfill Daniel's prophecy.

It is not the point of whether God controls everything. The point is the prince of the people who destroyed the temple and city was not Jesus - because Jesus was not the prince of the Romans (of the people who destroyed the temple and city) - just as God was not the God of the Babylonians.

 

[jgr]

It is not the point of whether God controls everything. The point is the prince of the people who destroyed the temple and city was not Jesus - because Jesus was not the prince of the Romans (of the people who destroyed the temple and city) - just as God was not the God of the Babylonians.

Somewhat of a semantic issue. It could be reasonably argued that God was "temporarily" the God of the Babylonians during the period(s) when he was orchestrating their activities as His servants to execute His judgments. Similarly, the Romans. Obviously, both being pagan nations, they were not His servants or His people in a covenant relationship.

 

[Douggg]

Not sure I follow your rationale. Messiah was cut off, i.e. crucified, in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, and resurrected three days later. All of the elements and requisites of the New Covenant became reality during the 70th week.

jgr, please bear with me .

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah that last passover week. Four days later, he was crucified. Then three days later, he was resurrected.

In Daniel 9, it only addresses the messiah arriving and the messiah cutoff. Not his resurrection - as far as the text goes. The 70 weeks are upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. The resurrection is not found in Daniel 9 because the Jews don't believe it. What they will believe in for a while is the prince who shall come, thinking he is their messiah - for a while, 3 years, 3 months, thereabouts.

His arrival, verse 25, ...... unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks

His being cutoff, verse 26,.......And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off.

His arriving and his being cutoff is at the end of 62 weeks. The time span is only 4 days from arriving to being cutoff.

The 70th week is end times.

 

[Douggg]

Somewhat of a semantic issue. It could be reasonably argued that God was "temporarily" the God of the Babylonians during the period(s) when he was orchestrating their activities as His servants to execute His judgments. Similarly, the Romans. Obviously, both being pagan nations, they were not His servants or His people in a covenant relationship.

I don't think Jupiter for the Romans was a case of semantics for Jesus. Nor the Marduk for the Babylonians a case of semantics for God.

 

[jgr]

jgr, please bear with me .

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah that last passover week. Four days later, he was crucified. Then three days later, he was resurrected.

In Daniel 9, it only addresses the messiah arriving and the messiah cutoff. Not his resurrection - as far as the text goes. The 70 weeks are upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. The resurrection is not found in Daniel 9 because the Jews don't believe it. What they will believe in for a while is the prince who shall come, thinking he is their messiah - for a while, 3 years, 3 months, thereabouts.

His arrival, verse 25, ...... unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks

His being cutoff, verse 26,.......And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off.

His arriving and his being cutoff is at the end of 62 weeks. The time span is only 4 days from arriving to being cutoff.

The 70th week is end times.

No prob, Douggg. I concur that the word "resurrect" is not found in the descriptions of the accomplishments of the 70th week. But if all of those accomplishments are associated with the New Covenant, then the omission of the resurrection is for me not sufficient to deny that the New Covenant was still established.

In addition, the destruction described in the latter part of verse 26, which Messiah is orchestrating using the Romans (and Jews) as His instruments, necessitates a resurrected Messiah as the divine Orchestrator.

 

[jgr]

I don't think Jupiter for the Romans was a case of semantics for Jesus. Nor the Marduk for the Babylonians a case of semantics for God.

I can't think why He'd care.

 

[Douggg]

No prob, Douggg. I concur that the word "resurrect" is not found in the descriptions of the accomplishments of the 70th week. But if all of those accomplishments are associated with the New Covenant, then the omission of the resurrection is for me not sufficient to deny that the New Covenant was still established.

In addition, the destruction described in the latter part of verse 26, which Messiah is orchestrating using the Romans (and Jews) as His instruments, necessitates a resurrected Messiah as the divine Orchestrator.

I don't disagree that the New Covenant is salvation in Jesus.

The thing with the prince who is from the Romans is that there are other bible passages in Daniel 2 and 7 of the arch-villain of the end times, and the associated ten kings, tied to the fourth empire, the Roman Empire. Jesus is not tied to Roman Empire.

 

[Hal A Peno]

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[Hal A Peno]

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[Hal A Peno]

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[Douggg]

The Roman Empire isn't tied to anything prophetic. I've been asking for months for somebody to show me where.

Hal, people have been telling you referencing Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, but you don't accept it.

 

[Douggg]

You need a little objectivity Q. If you think Mathew 10 and 15 prove God's elect is Israel in the NT you've been grossly deceived.

Hal, when Jesus returns, the Jews will have become Christians, so they will be the elect according to being Israel and elect according to salvation through grace in Jesus. Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of them from the nations and corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28.

The Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Israel. The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of God. By becoming Christians does not make us Israelite's. That would actually be a step down and backwards from being a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile.

 

[Hal A Peno]

FDbh

 

[Hal A Peno]

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[Quasar92]

Even in the Old Testament, the word ELECT infered more than just Jews/Israel. You're using an OT word to overide a NT word to fit you're theology. Bad, bad, bad, ....

Not once does elect refer to Jews in the NT!

And where, my I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible, genius?


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

You need a little objectivity Q. If you think Mathew 10 and 15 prove God's elect is Israel in the NT you've been grossly deceived.

You need to learn to stop shooting off your mouth with nothing to substantiate your worthless opinion. From this point on, you are on my ignore list until you do.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

I don't disagree that the New Covenant is salvation in Jesus.

The thing with the prince who is from the Romans is that there are other bible passages in Daniel 2 and 7 of the arch-villain of the end times, and the associated ten kings, tied to the fourth empire, the Roman Empire. Jesus is not tied to Roman Empire.

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

This describes the Kingdom of God/Heaven which Christ established during His first coming. It was established during the imperial Roman empire, which was the fourth of the four kings/kingdoms found in the chapter.

Daniel 7 describes the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire, the ten horns/kingdoms which emerged, and the little horn/kingdom which emerged from those; a reference to the Roman papacy seen in history.