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The Spectacular Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture of the church was buried and held hostage for more than 1,600 years by the RCC teachings of Amillennialism. That deny the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on the earth as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Both of which are taught in the Bible. Those are the facts! Capiche?!


    Quasar92
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It is a modern invention that spread like a virus through the modern Church, after John Nelson Darby and the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible.
    "Capiche"?



    PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
    with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
    F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
    http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

    Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
    PDF Files

    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf







    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  3. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    asdr
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From my post you responded to above, I wrote that the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church comes from Jesus, Matthew, Luke,John and Paul. Which you blatantly attribute to John Darby. Who restored the teachings from the heretic Amillennialism, taught by the RCC, who held the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth and the pre-trib rapture of the Church hostage for more than 1,600 years. Darby had nothing whatever to do with the original teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The crutch you have been using him for in support of your own views is broken, and a dead issue. so you can stop posting

    For your edification, review the following Biblical teachings of the pre-ytib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

    Attributing the teachings of Jesus to someone else is a dangerous practice, from which I suggest you stay away from.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your above rhetoric is more meaningless opinion you can no more prove by the Scriptures than you can jump off a cliff and fly.

    Yawn! You remain refuted.


    Quasar92
     
  6. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If you would actually read the article in the link below you would see the post-trib viewpoints of the early Church Fathers, which refute your claims above.

    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


    Even author Tim LaHaye admits in a quote from one of his books that the post-trib viewpoint is the oldest.
    Therefore, you have been refuted by someone on your own team.



    "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

    Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

    .
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nowhere is that more germane than the dispensational attribution of the finished work of Christ in Daniel 9:27, to antichrist.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    jgr, please highlight the words in the Daniel 9:26 or 9:27 that state the messiah is resurrected.

    Daniel 9:26 only addresses the messiah being cutoff. The resurrection is not revealed in Daniel 9. Daniel 9:27, the confirming of the covenant with many is not referring to Jesus, but the prince who shall come come.

    Why does Daniel 9 not reveal the resurrection? Because the Jews do not believe the resurrection, and will go through the 7 years.
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 



    Act 10:38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 


    Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 
    Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 
    Heb 10:18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
     


    Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 


    .............................................................
    From the 1599 Geneva Bible

    Daniel 9:27
    Dan 9:27
    And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

    .....................................................................................


    Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 



    Mat 10:5  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 

    Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 

    Mat 10:7  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 




    Gal 1:14  And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 
    Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 
    Gal 1:16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 
    Gal 1:17  Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 
    Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.


    3 1/2 years of earthly ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel commanded by Christ+ the time from Calvary to Paul's conversion+ 3 years from Paul's conversion to the time he began his ministry to the Gentiles= ?

    How could the text be any more obvious?

    Nobody can honestly deny the fact that the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dougg,

    It is Christ who confirms the covenant with many:

    Daniel 9
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

    Matthew 26
    27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    The prince is Messiah throughout, Daniel 9:25-27. The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Christ's vehicles and instruments to accomplish the destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

    Jeremiah 25
    9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

    Jeremiah 43
    10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

    God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt. In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Christ's people in accomplishing His purposes.

    There is another legitimate sense wherein the Jews themselves, as the people of Prince Messiah, were equally responsible for the judgment that ultimately befell them. Their own actions in defiling the temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

    The Lamentation of Josephus
    War 5.1.4 19-20


    The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
    Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.


    As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as divinely orchestrated.


    Thus Daniel 9:25-27 is descriptive of historically fulfilled prophetic events in which our Lord confirmed His covenant, and fully accomplished all of His purposes as described by His prophet Daniel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  12. mike buckman

    mike buckman New Member

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    I dont know what to tell you if you cant see how your conclusions that those scriptures elude to a pretribulation rapture are conjecture and speculation.

    The one taken out of the way is not the church as you claim, nor can you biblically uphold that without speculating and using conjecture. It is more like the Holy Spirit or an Angel.

    The gathering of the elect will happen on the day of the Lord when Christ comes with the clouds. This is the second coming and every eye shall see him. read Zechariah 14. This event is the same event where the dead in Christ are with the Lord already. The lord comes with all of his holy ones with him. The elect are gathered and the battle won.

    The marriage in heaven in revelations is not something that we will see as John had seen it. This does not mean that there isn't a marriage, it only means that God showed it to John in the way he did for John. This was not what we will see at the Lords coming. It is out of context to ascribe an earthly timeline to that specific part of Johns vision because it is only telling us about the marriage and it has nothing to do with any timeline.

    The convoluted Apostia translation notion is speculative to ascribe the word departed to a rapture off of the earth. There is nothing besides speculation backing that up. Just because it says departed... It does not mean what you claim. Read deeper into the context... 2 Thessalonians clearly states that the antichrist will be destroyed at the coming of the lord. So the anti christ will set up the mark, the bowls of wrath going out to those with the mark etc, and after all that the antichrist destroyed. The false prophet and serpent thrown into the fire. There is only one coming, not a second coming and a third coming.

    John 2 has nothing to do with the rapture per se. Its only Jesus promising to return. It makes zero inference to any timeline whatsoever, nor does Jesus go into more details about the end times during his consolation to his apostles in John.

    Luke 21:36. This verse ends with "Pray that you have the strength to escape all of these things, but before that, the full context of his words do not infer in even the slightest sense that believers will not witness all of it. It is quite the opposite, and even more so if you look at Matthews account. For anyone to claim it does, is to add meaning through speculation to that portion of scripture. "Pray that YOU have the STRENGTH." God is referring to personal strength to endure and escape temptation and hardships, including being killed for his namesake.

    Corinthians 5:8 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 have nothing to do with any of this and to devise a doctrine from those two passages especially when looking at their context is to suggest a secret hidden knowledge in between the lines that teaches things that the real Bible doesnt tell you.... You dig? Pretribulation rapture: A doctrine devised from "Reading between the lines." A doctrine that contradicts Jesus's words.

    I have read all of those scriptures that you cite and NONE of them suggest a pretribulation rapture.

    I also must say that the whole 70th week deciphering that pre tribbers do is incredibly fraught with speculation, assumption and conjecture.

    Again, it is incredible to me that anyone could read the word and not see the conjecture and speculation behind the false doctrine of Pre Trib rapture.

    It is so evident when you take the scenario of a man doling out the mark of the beast, contending with a christian saying; " Dont worry, this couldnt be the mark of the beast or you would have been raptured out already. Isnt that what your Bible says?"

    NO! That isnt what the Bible says!!!!! The Bible says the opposite!!!!! I cant stress this enough. Dont be deceived by "secret knowledge and fanciful decoding of what the Bible supposedly really means or says...
     
  13. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot wrong with this, but I'll pick on one point in particular, simply because I see this bastardized quite a lot on this forum.

    The word translated 'strength' in the ESV is not translated as such in other versions, including the KJV, which uses the phrase 'accounted worthy'. Had you chosen that version, it would not have fit your narrative at all.

    The word is used 4 times in total on the NT. Zero of them deal with personal strength or endurance. However, three of them do reference an individual's worthiness to participate in the resurrection and the obtaining of the kingdom of God (Luke 20:35, Luke 21:36, 2 Thessalonians 2:5).

    Not only is Jesus describing and individuals worthiness, but He does so in the direct contest of escaping. The word used for escape means just that, escape. This flies directly in the face of the thought of some strength to endure. He doesn't say endure, He plainly says escape. You are adding endurance into the text that just simply isn't there.
     
  14. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jacob/Israel and Joseph = the twelve tribes of Israel, are God's chosen/elect. Jesus and all of those who believe in Him = are God's elect!

    In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus is addressing questions His disciples asked Him, pertaining to signs of His return. It pertains to His second coming, when He will do so with His Church, from their marriage in heaven, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14, confirming Zech,14:4-5.


    Quasar92
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Review Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6, where Jesus made it crystal clear, His mission din His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, who are all referred to as Jews today. Because remnants of every one of the ten northern tribes of Israel returned to Judah, the origin of the term Jew.


    Quasar92
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jgr, you referred to Jeremiah 25, 43. In both of those particular passages God specifically stated that he was sending the Babylonians as His instrument. Was God the God of the Babylonians? If not, why would you consider Jesus the prince of Romans?
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The new covenant is not found in Daniel 9 because the new covenant includes the resurrection.

    Start backtracking in Daniel 9 to find out what "the" covenant is. The messiah is cutoff, but that is not in itself the new covenant - because there is no new covenant without the resurrection. What Christian believes only that Jesus died for our sin? Christians 100% believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

    The disciples did not go out preaching anything until after the resurrection.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on your logic, the following verses cannot be about the New Covenant because it does not discuss the resurrection.

    Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 


    Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 

    Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 

    Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 

    Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 

    Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 

    Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 

    Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 

    Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 



    Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
    Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
    Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 


    Who Confirmed The Covenant?
    James Lloyd
    http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

    .
     
  19. mike buckman

    mike buckman New Member

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    Yes, the KJV does say "That you be counted worthy to escape all these things." Yet it is a moot point because both versions infer a similar thing which lines up really well with the rest of the Bible. Specifically I am thinking of the beginning of Rev 9 and 16, where believers are spared the plagues, rev 22 (hold fast till the end) as well as where it speaks about fleeing into the mountains. I dont see it as possible to conclude any pre tribulation rapture with the information given in that passage alone at all. My main point is that it could fit into any of the three rapture timeline views and one has to speculate on meaning and use conjecture to line it up to a pretribulation rapture doctrine. There arent any passages that specifically say that believers will be taken out before any tribulation begins. None, zero. So the pre trib doctrine is forced to latch onto certain ones that might be construed as inferring such a thing. The doctrine relies on convincing inferences rather than what the Bible actually says. If you read what the Bible actually says, you have to admit that it says that we will suffer Tribulation and be beheaded for our testimony. That Christ wont come till after the man of lawlessness is revealed. The antichrist will be destroyed when Christ returns. Christs warnings to hold fast until the end. To he that overcometh I will give to drink freely from the water of life etc... Christ is very clear about it. There is no secret to the last day. The bible refers to it often. There is no inferred messages that we have to decipher...
     
  20. mike buckman

    mike buckman New Member

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    I would also like to point out something when it comes to prophecy and studying prophecy, and it ties into something slightly disconnected with our main discussion, but still is an element of it.

    Jewish scholars in Jesus's day believed that the messiah was going to be the physical king of Israel. They poured over the prophecies and this is what they came up with. All of their wisdom and learning ended up being revealed as nothing more than the conclusions of unspiritual minds. They had everyone convinced of this as well. King Herod killed all of the children under 2 years old to protect his crown from the coming messiah!

    What is interesting to me, is that going back, reading the old testament prophecies, it was knowable that the Messiah would be put to death and that his kingdom would be a spiritual kingdom. The fact that the messiahs kingdom was referred to as eternal. That it would last forever and ever was a huge clue. They knew that the earth wasnt going to last forever. The only thing that will last forever and ever is Gods eternal kingdom. The spiritual kingdom.

    This is what I see going on today with so much eschatology. I think people are losing the sight of what we as believers are actually promised as Gods gift to us. Flesh and bone cannot inherit the kingdom of God. What is sown a natural body is raised a spiritual body.

    Read the descriptions of the new heaven and new earth. There is no more day or night there. No cold or heat. The streets of gold like transparent glass. A city filled with light at all times. Filled with the immediate presence of God in the company of innumerable Angels.

    This is not a physical inheritance. The new heaven and new earth are one, and they are not in any physical solar system, thats for sure.

    Read Genesis 8:22 and then 2 Peter 3:10. and finally the descriptions of the new heaven and new earth. there are several.

    Our inheritance is a spiritual inheritance, not a physical one.
     
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