THE SOUL: What is it?

[redleghunter]

I am reading a lot of personal opinions but nothing from the Source.... Paidiske was the closest though.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Your soul is not something separate from your being, it is you very life. Take away the breath of life and you cease to be a soul and revert back to the dust.

Paul was convinced of a presence with the Lord before the resurrected body:

2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).

Jesus even gave us a depiction as this is not a parable:

Luke 16: NKJV
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

No one in the audience seemed to object to this depiction by Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not saying body and soul are the same thing; I'm saying we shouldn't see the soul as a "thing" at all. As I posted in #38, I'd argue that that verse means that our life is not limited to this mortal span; which we know from the resurrection; which is why they are not able to "kill the soul."

As one already said, the soul is "us."

 

[Danielwright2311]

Cool, hope you liked it, I'm

Read it and posted a response.

going to write more when I get my PC back.

 

[redleghunter]

Why is this important? Because to the ancient Hebrew mindset, the body and the so-called soul are inseparable aspects of a human being.

Yet we have this:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This belief led to the belief that postmortem survival depends on a bodily resurrection at the end of the age becazise disembodied souls cannot survive death fully conscious.

Yet we have this:

Luke 16:19-31

This Jewish belief has changed in the NT era with the rise of the belief that humans can expect to survive in a spiritual body after death.

No so much a spiritual body but presence with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1: NKJV
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

 

[redleghunter]

(1) the apparent Jewish consensus in Jesus' day that the soul preexists prior to birth (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20; 2 Enoch 24:1-3; the Essenes (so Josophus), the early rabbis, and implicitly in John 9:1-2 and Jeremiah 1:4-5). This consensus is clearly relevant to pro-choice claim that the fetus is not a person.

Which consensus and how does this gain relevance with the pro choice claim?

The pre-existence of the soul prior to birth means before birth not at birth. Meaning part of a human being before birth.

in John 9:1-2 says nothing about the soul.


and Jeremiah 1:4-5 actually can advocate a soul existence before conception.

Still not seeing from all referenced canonical scriptures the pro choice assertion of personhood.

 

[Deadworm]

redleghunter: "Which consensus...?"

Can you say "scholarly consensus?" Reread my post and then read the summary article on "the preexistence of the soul" in the voluminous "Anchor Bible Dictionary." Clearly, you have not read the relevant scholarly literature and all the relevant ancient texts.

redleghunter: ",,,and how does this gain relevance with the pro choice claim?"

Duh, because if the soul preexists in a fully human state with a personality with a divine calling, it can't be dismissed as mere disposable tissue, now can it?


redleghunter :"The pre-existence of the soul prior to birth means before birth not at birth. Meaning part of a human being before birth."

You are obviously pontificating without reading all the cited texts! if you had read them all, you'd realize that what is in question is not "part of a human being," but a fully human soul with a prebirth developed capacity for sin or goodness (look up Ecclesiasticus 8:19-20). In His reply, Jesus repudiates neither this assumption nor their belief in the soul's preexistence. Rather. His point is this: in the particular case of the man born blind, the man was not being punished for prebirth sin, but was born blind so that God might be glorified through his healing.

redleghunter: "in John 9:1-2 says nothing about the soul/"

The assumption behind John 9:1-2 is the possibility of the soul sinning prior to birth. Since belief in reincarnation was not an option in the Judaism of late antiquity, the envisaged sin would be committed in a fully conscious preexistent state and hence would be committed by the human soul or spirit, 2 terms that can't clearly be distinguished in this respect.

The disciples realize that the fully human preexistent soul has the capacity to sin or develop goodness. |


redleghunter: "...and Jeremiah 1:4-5 actually can advocate a soul existence before conception."

Precisely my point! Indeed, the Jewish background teaches that all souls were created before the creation of the earth (see 2 Enoch 24:1-3).

 

[Monna]

dividing asunder of soul and spirit

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

What, if anything, is the difference between soul and spirit? Most of the posts above have written about the soul continuing after death. In Hebrews 4:12, I can understand the difference between "thoughts and intents of the heart" but not between soul and spirit if, as implied in many posts above they are the same thing. What are the two original words used in this text?

 

[JIMINZ]

Here is my take on the questions about the Soul, which I asked in the OP

.
The use of the word (SOUL) in the Old Testament refers to the Physical Fleshly Body of man, which has been animated by the "Breath of Life" thus becoming a Living Soul.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice,
1) The verse only speaks of the Physical aspect of man becoming alive,
2) The verse does not speak of the Spiritual side of man in the same manor, because the Spirit which was Breathed into the man, is Life.

The (Breath of Life) which is the Spirit of man, was breathed into the Physical Being (after having been formed of the dust of the ground).

The Spirit of the man is what keeps it alive, the Spirit can live outside of the man, but when the Spirit leaves the man the (Body, Flesh, Soul) dies.

The Soul is the combining of both the Body (Flesh) + Breath (Spirit), there is no SOUL unless both are present.

The Soul does not exist by itself, apart from the Body.

In the end of it all, I guess what I am saying is, the SOUL cannot die as such, because it is not a separate entity which can die, it only exists in conjunction with the (Body, Flesh) of man.

 

[Monna]

The Soul is the combining of both the Body (Flesh) + Breath (Spirit), there is no SOUL unless both are present.

The Soul does not exist by itself, apart from the Body.

In the end of it all, I guess what I am saying is, the SOUL cannot die as such, because it is not a separate entity which can die, it only exists in conjunction with the (Body, Flesh) of man.

Sorry, I don't get it. The body dies; does that mean the soul ceases to exist? (in your understanding since 'it cannot exist...apart from the body?'). Does it make a difference if the body is buried, cremated (or burnt to death), hacked to pieces, or otherwise not whole? If I lose both legs and arms, do I have less soul? Does my soul reside in my brain or my heart or somewhere else?

 

[Traveler 1]

This is the word for soul in Greek;

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

It is interchanged between your soul that you want to save from hell and your life that others want to take.

 

[Resha Caner]

It doesn't really matter what people think the soul is. It is what it is. Further, we have to admit the Bible doesn't give us the clinical definition we wish for. As such, the soul remains somewhat of a mystery. It's also hard to put your finger on exactly why we're so anxious to define it. Still, a lot of us have a sense of it - we kinda feel like we sorta know what it is.

In the end, the best approach is to study the Word regarding spirit, soul, and body to see what God is trying to tell us when he uses those terms.

 

[food4thought]

I'm surprised no one has brought up this yet:

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)

We learn from this passage that:
A) These souls survives the death of the body
B) These souls are conscious and able to communicate
C) These souls are present with God

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm surprised no one has brought up this yet:

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)

We learn from this passage that:
A) These souls survives the death of the body
B) These souls are conscious and able to communicate
C) These souls are present with God

That passage is symbolic...

 

[redleghunter]

Can you say "scholarly consensus?" Reread my post and then read the summary article on "the preexistence of the soul" in the voluminous "Anchor Bible Dictionary." Clearly, you have not read the relevant scholarly literature and all the relevant ancient texts.

Duh, because if the soul preexists in a fully human state with a personality with a divine calling, it can't be dismissed as mere disposable tissue, now can it?

You are obviously pontificating without reading all the cited texts! if you had read them all, you'd realize that what is in question is not "part of a human being," but a fully human soul with a prebirth developed capacity for sin or goodness (look up Ecclesiasticus 8:19-20). In His reply, Jesus repudiates neither this assumption nor their belief in the soul's preexistence. Rather. His point is this: in the particular case of the man born blind, the man was not being punished for prebirth sin, but was born blind so that God might be glorified through his healing.

redleghunter: "...and Jeremiah 1:4-5 actually can advocate a soul existence before conception."

Precisely my point! Indeed, the Jewish background teaches that all souls were created before the creation of the earth (see 2 Enoch 24:1-3).

I read your post again, and I took the central point erroneously. I thought your post advocated the experts or scholars coming to conclusion of pro-choice based on the Jewish historic understanding. That is why I asked the questions as it was not clear. But your posts above do clarify and I apologize for causing any misunderstandings.

 

[redleghunter]

That passage is symbolic...

What is it symbolic of?

 

[redleghunter]

I'm surprised no one has brought up this yet:

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)

We learn from this passage that:
A) These souls survives the death of the body
B) These souls are conscious and able to communicate
C) These souls are present with God

Indeed. Although as you see above some see this as symbolic. However, I asked symbolic of what exactly.

But we can easily decipher here two considerations:

1. The Resurrection already happened and resurrected bodies are in heaven. If one goes that route then they confirm a pre-trib or within-trib rapture. And we know that will meet quite some resistance from the soul-sleep advocates.

Or

2. These are truly souls absent from their corrupt flesh (bodies) and in the presence of the Lord awaiting the resurrection and their glorified bodies. As the apostle Paul points out:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1: NKJV
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

 

[PaulCyp1]

The soul is our spiritual nature, that part of us that is eternal. It comes into existence by a direct act of God, at the same moment our physical nature comes into existence, at the moment of conception.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Where does it come from, When does a person receive it, Is it a separate entity?

Genesis 2:7 I think this Scripture explains that we are souls not that we have souls. There's a difference when you say we have souls and that we are souls. When Adam was punished for his sin one of the things God said was he(Meaning Adam) would go back to the dust .(For dust you are). In that Scripture that God is punishing Adam, when God used the word "you" concerning Adam God was talking to the whole person not only part of him

 

[redleghunter]

What, if anything, is the difference between soul and spirit? Most of the posts above have written about the soul continuing after death. In Hebrews 4:12, I can understand the difference between "thoughts and intents of the heart" but not between soul and spirit if, as implied in many posts above they are the same thing. What are the two original words used in this text?

Good background material here:

Bible Questions and Answers, Part 6

You may have to read a few paragraphs before getting to the meat of the matter of soul/spirit. I think John MacArthur does a good job of explaining the various Christian views. Key in on the discussion where he addresses dichotomist vs. trichotomists.

 

[JIMINZ]

Sorry, I don't get it. The body dies; does that mean the soul ceases to exist?

Exactly, like I said before.

"The Soul is the combining of both the Body (Flesh) + Breath (Spirit), there is no SOUL unless both are present.

The Soul does not exist by itself, apart from the Body."

The Soul is not an Entity unto itself in that it could die, the Soul does not have a life of it's own.

The Soul is the essence of man, when combined with the Spirit of man.

Man as with Adam is a Living Soul, that is Body (Flesh) + Breath (Spirit)
When the Body and the Spirit are combined in one, they become a SOUL.

Does it make a difference if the body is buried, cremated (or burnt to death), hacked to pieces, or otherwise not whole?

No it does not, you are only speaking of things which affect the Physical Body (Flesh).

When I said the Soul is the Essence of man, it is who we are who we project to others, our intellect, our understanding, our love, compassion, our life.

The Body without the Spirit is Dead, the Spirit is the Animating force which keeps the Body from falling down Dead, the combination of the Body and Spirit in man forms what we know as "THE SOUL" it's who we are it's what people know us to be.

If I lose both legs and arms, do I have less soul?

You keep concentrating of the Physicality of man as though that is the Soul, and the losing of a part of that physicality diminishes the Soul, it does not affect the Soul, the Body is an Entity unto itself, the Spirit is an Entity unto itself, the Soul is the combining of both Body and Spirit in man, thereby constituting the Soul, which is not an Entity unto itself and has no life outside of the Body in which it was formed in conjunction with the Spirit.

Does my soul reside in my brain or my heart or somewhere else?

The Soul does not reside somewhere within you, it is you, who you are, who people know you to be.

The Soul is what people will remember of you, when your BODY does die,