"The Soul After Death" by Fr. Seraphim Rose

[Lukaris]

One thing I would say - don't judge this particular book by excerpts from it. It wasn't at all what I expected. Largely it talks about popular ideas about life after death and attempts over the years to study them, demonic delusions, and how all that fits into and compares with Church teaching (and how Church teaching can be misunderstood). An excerpt could end up being very misleading - even opposite to what Fr Seraphim is actually saying.

I did look at the actual book; we have it in our parish library. I looked at sections although truly I have not read it enough to form a full opinion on it.

 

[MariaJLM]

The tollhouse doctrine is precisely one of the issues I take with Seraphim Rose and his followers. They act like it's dogma, but it was never officially declared as such. It's officially a theologoumenon, like YEC vs. evolution(another thing that a lot of people like to act like is dogma in one way or another).

 

[ArmyMatt]

The tollhouse doctrine is precisely one of the issues I take with Seraphim Rose and his followers. They act like it's dogma, but it was never officially declared as such. It's officially a theologoumenon, like YEC vs. evolution(another thing that a lot of people like to act like is dogma in one way or another).

not to get overheated, but I think that's because folks don't know what makes Orthodox dogma, actual dogma. theologoumenon gets thrown around a lot more than it should.

 

[MariaJLM]

not to get overheated, but I think that's because folks don't know what makes Orthodox dogma, actual dogma. theologoumenon gets thrown around a lot more than it should.

Tollhouses, YEC, and evolution are actually theologoumena, though. I'm not misusing the word.

 

[Platina]

If it was never officially declared a dogma, when was it officially declared a theologumenon?

 

[Varangian Christian]

@ArmyMatt Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but doesn't macro-evolution undermine practically all the Orthodox doctrines regarding anthropology and Christology? If so, even if it isn't officially declared to be a heresy by name, wouldn't it still be heretical?

I haven't yet gotten Fr Seraphim's book on Genesis but its on my list, along with Saint Maximus' book On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ, which I am particularly excited to read. Would you recommend I add The Soul After Death to my reading list?

 

[MariaJLM]

@ArmyMatt Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but doesn't macro-evolution undermine practically all the Orthodox doctrines regarding anthropology and Christology? If so, even if it isn't officially declared to be a heresy by name, wouldn't it still be heretical?

I haven't yet gotten Fr Seraphim's book on Genesis but its on my list, along with Saint Maximus' book On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ, which I am particularly excited to read. Would you recommend I add The Soul After Death to my reading list?

I personally take little issue with Old Earth Creationism(although I still lean more towards theistic evolution). It's Young Earth Creationism I take issue with. It makes no logical sense to me whatsoever. (And yes, I tried to keep an open-mind about it.) That being said, I don't appreciate the implications that I'm a heretic or follow heretical doctrine.

 

[Varangian Christian]

I personally take little issue with Old Earth Creationism(although I still lean more towards theistic evolution). It's Young Earth Creationism I take issue with. It makes no logical sense to me whatsoever. (And yes, I tried to keep an open-mind about it.) That being said, I don't appreciate the implications that I'm a heretic or follow heretical doctrine.

I have no problem with Old Earth Creationists. Ive gone back and forth between OEC and YEC myself for a while and am now simply trying to find out what the Orthodox view is, and by that I do not necessarily mean dogma. Something may not be explicitly called dogma and yet be the only true answer (Only answer that makes logical sense and doesnt undermine doctrine).

Please do not take offense, I am not personally attacking you but asking about the heresy of a teaching. As a new comer to Orthodoxy I am going through a time of re-evaluating all my presuppositions and on this journey I have, for example, become convinced that the Orthodox Church is the One Church and therefore no other Church can rightly call itself Christian. This does not mean I question the personal faith of non-Orthodox believers, I know from my own life that I loved and was dedicated to Christ before finding the truth of Orthodoxy, but it does mean that the institutions and belief systems of other "Christian denominations" are not Christian. See my point? There is big picture and then there is personal, so please do not take offense.

It seems to me the evolutionist teaching that humans evolved over time from apes and other creatures on back to sea foam would be completely contradictory to the Orthodox doctrines regarding the nature of man and Christology. It seems to contradict the doctrine of Orthodox cosmology that death came into the world with sin, the nature of man as the image of God, it removes God from creation, etc.

Also, many people (not just YEC evangelicals mind you) have been poking holes in evolution for decades and even secular scientists have expressed doubt in its teachings, so I do not buy the false heathen narrative that one must accept it to be intellectually honest. The way I look at it is if it goes against the Orthodox teachings of anthropology, Christology and Cosmology then it is wrong, let the Scientists argue what they may, divine revelation trumps the wisdom of men.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Tollhouses, YEC, and evolution are actually theologoumena, though. I'm not misusing the word.

as you understand it, what about them makes them theologoumena?

this is me just asking, not putting you on the spot.

 

[ArmyMatt]

@ArmyMatt Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but doesn't macro-evolution undermine practically all the Orthodox doctrines regarding anthropology and Christology? If so, even if it isn't officially declared to be a heresy by name, wouldn't it still be heretical?

I haven't yet gotten Fr Seraphim's book on Genesis but its on my list, along with Saint Maximus' book On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ, which I am particularly excited to read. Would you recommend I add The Soul After Death to my reading list?

according to how the Fathers view why man was created in the first place, I would say yes.

 

[MariaJLM]

as you understand it, what about them makes them theologoumena?

this is me just asking, not putting you on the spot.

Because there is no teaching in the church stating that one must believe in tollhouses, YEC, or evolution otherwise they're outside of the church. I've had a rather extensive discussion with my priest actually about this very issue. I questioned him about tollhouses since I never even heard about them until I became active in online forums and such. He gave me the honest answer that it's a opinion that many Orthodox hold, but that it's not required to do so.

 

[Varangian Christian]

according to how the Fathers view why man was created in the first place, I would say yes.

Thank you for the quick answer!

Do you recommend I add The Soul After Death to my list of Orthodox books to buy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for the quick answer!

Do you recommend I add The Soul After Death to my list of Orthodox books to buy?

ask your priest this one. it's a very heavy book.

 

[Varangian Christian]

ask your priest this one. it's a very heavy book.

Still no priest yet unfortunately, but with how things are going this winter we are very motivated to move closer to a Church in the city.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Because there is no teaching in the church stating that one must believe in tollhouses, YEC, or evolution otherwise they're outside of the church. I've had a rather extensive discussion with my priest actually about this very issue. I questioned him about tollhouses since I never even heard about them until I became active in online forums and such. He gave me the honest answer that it's a opinion that many Orthodox hold, but that it's not required to do so.

but I have to ask, and this is something to think about, you didn't HAVE to profess the consubstantiality of the Son prior to Nicaea. so was that theologoumena prior to 325?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Still no priest yet unfortunately, but with how things are going this winter we are very motivated to move closer to a Church in the city.

then I would say hold off on that one for a bit.

 

[Varangian Christian]

then I would say hold off on that one for a bit.

Thank you, I'll do that.

 

[MariaJLM]

but I have to ask, and this is something to think about, you didn't HAVE to profess the consubstantiality of the Son prior to Nicaea. so was that theologoumena prior to 325?

Not my call to make, but I trust my priest on this issue. He told me himself the things I listed off are theologoumena. Another priest I know just outright calls tollhouses "Pagan nonsense"(which is obviously the opposite extreme I don't quite agree with either).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not my call to make, but I trust my priest on this issue. He told me himself the things I listed off are theologoumena. Another priest I know just outright calls tollhouses "Pagan nonsense"(which is obviously the opposite extreme I don't quite agree with either).

just giving it as something to think about, not calling out any particular priest.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hehe I haven't had time to keep up with my thread or CF in general.

I actually wrote a post in reply regarding (1) Seraphim Rose's life and (2) why he seems to have gotten a following that made him into something of a guru. That was something that definitely went through my mind as I read the book (the early pages). I wasn't really aware of much about his life, but I can see why people were impressed.

And I agree that we perhaps wish for something like the elders and Saints we read about, that many would say we do not have anymore (though St. Paisios, for one, seems to show that they can exist in our age). But I definitely understand that desire.

And as it turns out, it was that "fandom" that was the main reason my priest told me not to read Seraphim Rose for the first year or two. I had thought maybe he disagreed theologically, but that wasn't the main reason.

That said, I ended up with an extra copy of this book. I'd like to review it and donate it to our parish library, but I'm not sure if Father will like that.

We certainly shouldn't idolize any man and have these little fan clubs. It's a wrong human tendency. And one I suspect any person deserving of our admiration from an Orthodox standpoint would strongly oppose themselves.

But then I also understand the deep love we can have for a spiritual father or elder who helps us and who we see Christ in. And this is verging off topic, but that love has this and other pitfalls that wisdom might be needed to navigate and not allow falling into this pit or that one. But making a "guru" of anyone is one of those errors, and I have seen that happen with Seraphim Rose.

That is the fault of the ones doing it though, and no reason to reject his teaching, nor blame him. The teaching ought to be evaluated on its own merit.