The Sins of Jesus?

[nephilimiyr]

Composer,

From your response I must come to the conclusion that you are unwilling to debate anymore but instead just post the same weak arguments. If you wish to continue then please address post #37.

I see composer is useing the same tactics as he always uses. Oh Tawhano, you must be a gluton for punishment?!?!(jk)

I just arrived here and skipped over alot of the posts but I must say this first before I decide if I want to participate fully. I do believe in the deity of Jesus Christ but my major question is whether his mother was without sin? Luke 1:30, And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. This doesn't tell me Mary was without sin but only that God favoured her above other women at that time. I find it hard to believe in the doctrine of inherited sin. I don't believe the flesh is sinful by itself but only that it causes men to sin.

Now this tells me Mary was like the rest of us who have sinned because mainly the Bible never says for certain. I don't believe the Bible paints Mary as perfect, without blemish. If she was then there wouldn't have been any reason for God to become flesh since someone was already available for the sacrifice. The whole point of the need for God to become flesh is for the need of a perfect lamb for sacrifice, one without blemish, one without sin.

Revelation 5:2-5, (2)And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
(3)And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
(4)And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold the lion of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Further more into the chapter Rev 5:9-10, And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The only way these seals could be opened was if there was a man worthy of the task, someone without sin and without blemish. The only way this lamb could have redeemed us to God is if he was a suitable sacrifice for us. For a man to be a suitable sacrifice for us he had to be without blemish, without sin and Jesus is that lamb, Jesus was that suitable sacrifice!!!
OH THANK YOU JESUS!!!


I don't need to go any further to tell me that Jesus was without sin. That question of whether Jesus sinned has to be answered with a resounding NO! The scriptures I posted here tells me that.

 

[Composer]

For the sake of brevity I post the following extract by R. Roberts

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ. Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts—as having died instead of us—as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us—death—he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17 ).

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not “forgiven,” for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God—the forgiveness of our sins “through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25 ).

It is a subject calling for great reverence of mind in order to grasp its proper apprehension; for it is the subject of a divine procedure, with divine objects. Those who have little faith in God, and little reverence for Him, can have but very small interest in it. Those who love God approach it with deep humility and fervent desire and strong interest. At the same time, it requires something besides reverence; it requires understanding. While in a sense, all Divine ways are too high for human understanding, wherein He has condescended to invite us to understand, it is ours to respond. We see many people of a reverent type of mind, even to the degree of superstition, who have no understanding.

There are two extremes which it is desirable to avoid. They may be taken to be represented by the red-hot Salvationist, and the very cool Moralist. The Salvationist talks a great deal about “the blood of Christ”, but talks in a way that outrages understanding and throws a cloud over God’s dealings. The Moralist avoids reference to the blood of Christ altogether. With him it is a mere phrase without a practical meaning. Wisdom steers a middle course, and aims to get that nice equilibrium of facts which results from a comprehensive study of the Scriptures.

 

[nephilimiyr]

composer if you don't believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins than you are not a christian. You can quote the Bible all you want and interpret the scriptures all you want but unless you have the Holy Spirit living in you you will never interpret it as Gods truth and wisdom, you will never know what the truth is. Argue all you want composer but unless you acknowlegde that Jesus is God almighty, the everlasting God, and that he died for your sins, not his but yours, then you will perish.

I do believe you have demons in you and that you need to rebuke this evil, these demons. This will take faith because I do believe you are in deep and surrounded by them. You need to seek help with other christians for prayer over this! perhaps with me and Tawhano? They have found a home in you and unless you call upon the name of Jesus and accept him as your Lord you will perish.

This is not an arguement or debate I can continue with. There is no question I have here. All I can suggest to you composer is to tell you to put your wisdom aside along with your intellect and use your spirit to find the way but again you must rebuke these evil spirits first! I will pray for you and do so as often as I can. If you agree that you need prayer than lets do it together! If two call upon the Lord in agreement than he is sure to answer everytime. Just don't let these evil spirits win composer, they want your soul!

 

[Composer]

I do sincerely thank you for your concerns regarding me, but fret not about me please, it is you that are currently misguided.

I do sincerely know that God is Supreme.

The Scriptures confirm that Jesus is NOT God.

The Scriptures do however confirm that Jesus is God's Son and appointed mediator.

‡ Be not you therefore led away by various and foreign Doctrines ; for it is an Excellent thing for the HEART to be established by FAVOR ; ‡ not by Ailments, in which THOSE were not profited who WALKED in them. (Heb. 13: 9) Diaglott Original NT Greek Text Interlinear.

As the readers can see, the Scriptures warn those who follow false teachings such as you and Tawhano.

Safety in numbers is NO security whatsoever, in fact the opposite -

Because strait [ is ] the gate, and narrow [ is ] the way , which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Because: or, How} (Matt. 7:14) KJS

We all make our God given free will choices, I have made mine based upon sound Scriptural Interpretation and others have made theirs.

I am quite happy to share my understandings with any who will listen.

 

[nephilimiyr]

composer as long as you continue to use your mind to give you answer's in God's word you will never see. You are blinded now but I do pray that God will bless you!

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John says the Word was God and then he says the Word was made flesh and then he proclaims to be a witness of him. Don't you just love the way the KJV translators capitolizes the W in the word word? The only way you can argue this is if you are spiritually blinded to the truth.

The warnings you give composer are towards you!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Composer, you're constantly igonoring Tawhano, so I thought I'd help you see what you're missing. Could you address 1 Corinthians 15:3?
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
We're not asking you to repeat the same scriptures you post over and over again. All we're asking for is a response to this verse. Repition seems to help you though, so let me help...

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I agree usadingo, repitition is certainly one of the tactics composer always uses, not that it helps his case mind you. This is why I thought I'd bump this post of yours up though. There's always a slim chance composer will actually interpret this passage for us.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[Composer]

Christ was not literally the Word. He was the word "made flesh". (vs. 14).

The Greek word "logos" translated "Word" expresses the divine intention, mind, or purpose.1 Young defines "logos" as "a word, speech, matter, reason."2 In the A.V. "logos" is translated by more than 20 different English words and is used for utterances of men (e.g., John 17:20) as well as those of God (John 5:38) KJS

In other words, Jesus was a "prophesy" in God's mind that came to pass when Jesus was born by way of Mary.

Moreso: -

God [ is ] not a man , that he should lie; neither the son of man , . . . (Num. 23:19) KJS

As you see, Jesus was a man (Acts 2:22) KJS but God is NOT a man.

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mark 14:62) KJS

So again we see that God is NOT the Son of Man either, but Jesus is.

The claim that Jesus = God is proven false.

 

[Tawhano]

Composer said:
As the readers can see, the Scriptures warn those who follow false teachings such as you and Tawhano.

In your dreams but here in reality everybody can see that you ignore scriptures that prove your doctrine to be false. You misinterpret scripture to suit your own desires and ignore the sound doctrine of the Bible. Until you can address the issues I posted in post# 37 then you have failed to prove anything but instead confirm my evaluation of your deceitful practices.

 

[usadingo]

"God [ is ] not a man , that he should lie; neither the son of man , . . . (Num. 23:19)"

Did we not learn anything from Clinton? "Is" implies present tense. "The cat is sleeping." "The door is open." "God is not a man."
Funny thing about that last one though. It was written before Jesus. Do you get where I'm headed?
I can say my wife is not pregnant. If, in the future, she did become pregnant, am I lying?
I suggest a basic english course on past, present, and future tense writing styles.

 

[Composer]

Re: Post #37
Composer said:
I have maintained that consistently and the Scriptures agree with me that my understanding is correct.



Tawhano wrote: Lets examine how it is that the Scriptures agree with you shall we?

Composer said:
…Jesus did NOT die "for our sins"…


The Scriptures say:
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Composer Again quotes an extract by R. Roberts - Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us—death—he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17 ).

Composer expands: It is all well and good to claim "well I believe that Christ rose so my sins are forgiven" however that is a non sequitur because if the sins of ALL are already forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice then whether we believe that he rose OR NOT would make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE because if it were so then whether we believe it or not it would be so regardless. But this is NOT the case as pointed out, "if you reject the fact that Jesus is raised then you ARE and REMAIN in your sins. You are reading what you wish it would say Tawhano, rather than examining what it really says.

Quote continues: Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not “forgiven,” for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God—the forgiveness of our sins “through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25 ).

Tawhano wrote: Until you address the above scriptures and by your silence on them you have not proven a thing.

Composer responds: All points now addressed. Back to you.

 

[Tawhano]

Composer responds: All points now addressed. Back to you.

You have no idea what it means to address the issues do you? You simply have no debating abilities at all. You are supposed to address directly the fact that the scriptures say Christ died for our sins.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

You posted your beliefs already now I want you to reconcile your beliefs with the scriptures. Why does the scriptures say Christ died for our sins if it isn’t true?

 

[usadingo]

Composer Again quotes an extract by R. Roberts - Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us—death—he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17 ).

What this guy doesn't understand is, when Christians say, "Christ died for our sins," we're not saying that He died so that we no longer physically die. Unless Christ returns before it, we're all going to die eventually. What Jesus died for was to save us from spiritual death. A.k.a. going to hell.
The reason Christ rose was because it was part of the prophecy about the Messiah. That, and He said He was going to. If He were to claim he would rise from the grave, and then didn't, He would have been a liar. If He was a liar, that would contridict the fact that He lead a blameless life. Therefore, if He did not rise from the grave, our faith is in vain, because we are believing in something that's not true.

Quote continues: Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not “forgiven,” for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God—the forgiveness of our sins “through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25 ).

Our debts/sins were paid for on the cross. However, for us to receive that gift of grace, we have to accept it. Our sins are forgiven as long as we accept the gift. That gift is available to everyone. Thus, Christ died for all our sins. We continue to sin, because we are sinful people. However, we repent of those sins and seek forgiveness once again.

Composer responds: All points now addressed. Back to you.

Regardless of what you're able to cut and paste from a book, the Bible still says Jesus died for our sins. Believe it or not, it's in there. People on here are asking you to address the fact that's what it says.

 

[Tawhano]

Tomorrow is my last day at work. I do have Internet connection at home and while I’m looking for another job I should be able to come on to debate. If you don’t see me for a while you will know why. I haven’t abandoned the debate so try and contain your victory dance Composer.

 

[Composer]

Oh Tawhano, Such harsh and unnecessary words.

My ONLY intention is to guide you and uplift you.

I am NOT here to corrupt, ridicule, despise or destroy anyone, including you.

 

[Tawhano]

Composer said:
Oh Tawhano, Such harsh and unnecessary words.

What harsh and unnecessary words?

Composer said:
My ONLY intention is to guide you and uplift you.

I am NOT here to corrupt, ridicule, despise or destroy anyone, including you.

Until you address the serious disagreement between your doctrine and the scripture I posted in post# 37 I have no alternative but to believe that is exactly your intentions.

 

[Composer]

To Tawhano:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Cor. 15: 3) KJS

As far as Jesus having died FOR US, then as I pointed out before Jesus did NOT die "for us" at all based on the overall Scriptures, but in actual fact Jesus was rewarded with eternal life?

That scenario makes Jesus a greedy deceiver who is prepared to die a human death knowing full well he will inherit eternal life?

If you want to call that scenario "for us" then I can not prevent you?

Or

If you also claim that Jesus was actually God, then God can never die and the sacrifice of a bit of flesh is nothing to an alleged immortal god within.

Either way the tinitarian concept degrades Jesus and God to selfish deceivers.

What the Scriptures also say is -

To this for you were called; because even Anointed suffered on behalf of you, to you leaving behind an example, so that you may follow in the steps of him; (1 Pet. 2:21) Diaglott Greek

As we see, clearly Jesus died as the EXAMPLE for us to follow and he can not be an EXAMPLE and at the same time have done it "for us".

Tell us how please Tawhano, how we can follow an example, when there is nothing to follow because you claim it is all already done "for us?"

Rather more sensible is that Jesus showed us EXACTLY what must be done and sets the Perfect EXAMPLE that we might follow him and be rewarded similarly as he was.

I have again addressed your Post #37 in full. If there any outstanding points that you still do not comprehend please advise in full.

 

[Tawhano]

Composer Said:

To Tawhano:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Cor. 15: 3) KJS

As far as Jesus having died FOR US, then as I pointed out before Jesus did NOT die "for us" at all based on the overall Scriptures, but in actual fact Jesus was rewarded with eternal life?

That scenario makes Jesus a greedy deceiver who is prepared to die a human death knowing full well he will inherit eternal life?

If you want to call that scenario "for us" then I can not prevent you?

This is what I have been waiting for all this time. You finally admit that you simply disregard any scripture that says the opposite of your doctrine. You have no defense as to why this verse quite clearly says Christ died for our sins so you simply ignore it.

Consider this, when I am debating with an atheist I do not quote scriptures because to them the Word of God means nothing and will not be considered valid evidence towards the case I am making. When I debate Christians I always quote scriptures because a Christian considers scriptures as the Word of God and valid evidence to use towards my case. You have made it perfectly clear that quoting scriptures to you is useless because when it benefits your doctrine you will simply ignore the scripture.

Composer Said:
...in actual fact Jesus was rewarded with eternal life?

Jesus was not rewarded eternal life. Jesus died willingly on the cross for our sins as the scriptures tell us. He did not do so for any reward save to reconcile mankind to God. Half the time you argue points that have not been posted by anybody here. Nowhere in this thread do I see anybody saying Jesus was rewarded eternal life for his sacrifice. God sent Jesus to reconcile mankind to Him and Jesus did so. Jesus always had eternal life; it was His flesh that died not His Spirit.

 

[Tawhano]

Composer said:
I have again addressed your Post #37 in full.

Not quite, there were more than one issue posted in #37, you only address the one.

Composer Said:
To this for you were called; because even Anointed suffered on behalf of you, to you leaving behind an example, so that you may follow in the steps of him; (1 Pet. 2:21) Diaglott Greek

As we see, clearly Jesus died as the EXAMPLE for us to follow and he can not be an EXAMPLE and at the same time have done it "for us".

Tell us how please Tawhano, how we can follow an example, when there is nothing to follow because you claim it is all already done "for us?"

Nowhere in 1 Peter 2 does it say Christ died for us as an example. This entire passage is talking about enduring hardship even if it is unwarranted as Jesus also suffered willingly. This is the example He set for us.

The Scriptures say:

1 Peter 2
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

These verses are talking about a man that for conscience toward God endures grief will be found thankworthy. Verse 21 tells us that as Jesus suffered this is an example on how we too should endure suffering and in verses 22 and 23 we are told the examples we are to follow. We do not sin and offer guile, reviling or threats when we receive such but commit ourselves to God. Nothing here indicating that by following his example will bring salvation to us. In fact nothing in 1 Peter suggest it either. Finally in verse 24 it says Jesus bore our sins on that tree. You have to ignore a major portion of the Bible to believe that we can find salvation by simply following the example of Jesus. The scriptures teach us that mankind is unable to refrain from sinning on his own.

 

[Composer]

To Tawhano,

Re: Post #57,

I ignore nothing, YOU ignore the facts that ALL flesh inherits SIN - Proof: -

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned: (Rom. 5:12) KJS

Was Jesus a man?

Of course he was - Proof: -

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (Acts 2:22) KJS

NB - A MAN

NB - A MAN APPROVED of by God

Does it say a god approved of itself?

Why would God have to approve of His alleged own body?

NB - GOD did the miracles and NOT JESUS!

Does it say that ALL men EXCEPT Jesus inherit sin?

- - - -

For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. {took not...: Gr. taketh not hold of angels, but of the seed of Abraham he taketh hold} (Heb. 2:16) KJS

NB - NOT the nature of angels but the SEED of Abraham

Proving yet again that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves but Jesus inherited the mortal weaknesses of the sins of the flesh after the likeness of Abraham.

Was Abraham a Man or a god?

 

[Tawhano]

Composer Said:
I ignore nothing, YOU ignore the facts that ALL flesh inherits SIN

Say what?

Composer said:
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Cor. 15: 3) KJS

As far as Jesus having died FOR US, then as I pointed out before Jesus did NOT die "for us" at all based on the overall Scriptures, but in actual fact Jesus was rewarded with eternal life?

The above response you gave me to defend your beliefs against the very Word of God in 1 Corinthians 15:3 speaks very clearly that you ignore scriptures that say the opposite of your doctrine. The Scriptures very clearly say ‘Christ died for our sins’ and you quite clearly say ‘Jesus did NOT die "for us" at all’.

Everybody reading this post can see how you ignore scriptures and how you twist scriptures to fit the interpretations of your beliefs. If you believe something that you think the Bible teaches and then a scripture is shown to you that clearly says the opposite of what you believe then it behooves you to re-examine the scriptures that you thought meant something else. Any serious Bible student would do the same. You on the other hand do the opposite; you simply ignore that offending scripture. I have repeatedly shown you the meanings of the scriptures you take out of context but you ignore that as well. You say there is no contradiction in the scriptures but when shown a clear verse that says the opposite you simply ignore it. This speaks volumes about you and your doctrine.