The Sins of Jesus?

Composer

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Tawhano,

You can pervert the Scriptures as much as you like, it still does not support your twisted logic.

The catch cry whenever those false teachings like yours are exposed is your alleged "fail safe" - It's all a "Mystery of Godliness" or "God can do anything". You got the "context wrong" etc.

Well God CAN do anything I have no doubt, anything BUT CONTRADICT Himself.

Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14: 4) KJS

But YOU say, God you are wrong, for YOU can, so why did you write that you can not?

Tawhano writes: God you are wrong all the time, look what you wrote here again - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned : (Rom. 5:12) KJS

But Jesus was a man so you say - Acts 2:22, but I say that he was NOT a man like us at all, he contradicts the Scriptures that state that all men have sinned?

Now whom do we believe, God or Tawhano?


It is absolutely true that Jesus did no sin (1 Pet. 2:22) HOWEVER Jesus "DIED". Now we also know that God does not punish the innocent either (Ex. 23:7 below), so "if" Jesus were totally "innocent", then he could not have been put to death. Now the Wages of Sin is death (Rom. 6:23) if you are innocent then you can not die (Ex. 23:7) but Jesus did die.

Being "put to death" purely for the "sins of others" alone would contradict God's statement that the innocent shall not be punished. -

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked (Ex. 23:7) KJS

It is perfectly true that Jesus was innocent of having "physically / mentally" having committed any sin (1 Pet. 2:22) although he was tried just as we are (Heb. 4:15) but nevertheless he "still died", so the only "unseen sin" that he could possibly have committed was to have been inherently born with a nature like each one of us inherits from Adam, because of Adam's disobedience / sin. (Gen. 3:17) KJS

This is why Hebrews 9:28 states that Christ shall return the 2nd time "without sin" because he came the first time "with the sinful Adamic Curse Nature" that was needed to be overcome in order to defeat the "real devil" (Heb. 2:14) which of course I have proven to be the Adamic Curse Nature of all men, (Gen. 3:17; Rom. 3:23; Rom. 5:12; Heb. 9:28) - (Gen. 3:17-19) - (Luke 3:6; Job 14:4) - (See: Diaglott)



It is also about time the alleged Moderator stepped in to curtail your personal attacks against me and make you retract the false statements you make against me personally.

How dare you call me a liar.

Then again, your attitude against those who expose your errors demonstrates that you are not a godly person in the slightest.

If the moderator does not step in, then obviously there are double standards here.

Personally speaking, you can insult me all you like, for those insults are as false as your current doctrine.

I however will stick to the facts that decimate the false teachings you currently embrace.

QED
 
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sad astronaut

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Composer,
Here is what I learned in Debate 101:
Here is a short list of words that you can replace "false teachings" with.

Beliefs:
Opinions:
Interpretation of the Bible
Doctrine:
I'm sure I can think of a few more.

It all depends what you want to do, do you want to debate like a grown up, or do you just want to educate us all on the true beliefs and tell us how wrong we are?
 
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Composer

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Well actually the insinuation was that I was not to be allowed to debate at all, that if I wished to debate then I must go to another site.

Now you are asking me to debate here?

All I wish to do is to express my sound and accurate Scriptural opinion without being attacked and being called a liar etc.

Then again, Jesus and those who followed him were abused and so Tawhano for example is only perpetuating those abusers who ridiculed Jesus.

All I know is that whenever those I discuss my evidence with those who try to explain their teachings and those teachings are thus shown to be without foundation, then every excuse is made to try to get rid of me.

I KNOW, I have the Truth, I only wish to share it to those who are prepared to at least listen without attacking me falsely.

The Scriptures say it all - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth ? (Gal. 4:16) KJS

The Truth shall stand regardless, so let us all please stay focused on the Scriptures and if any of our teachings are found wanting, then we must be prepared to examine "why?".

Having said that, I now submit further PROOF that Jesus was born with inherent sins as ALL in the flesh are inherently born with and Jesus was NO different, unless it is claimed that he was NOT human like us at all -

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin} (Rom. 8:3) KJS

NB. - God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, . . . (Rom. 8:3)

Diaglott Original Greek renders: God, having sent his own Son in a Form of the Flesh of Sin, even [by an offering] for Sin, . . . (Rom. 8:3)

Strong's Concordance Renders: -
BDB/Thayers # 3667
3667 homoioma {hom-oy'-o-mah}
from 3666; TDNT - 5:191,684; n n
AV - likeness 3, made like to 1, similitude 1, shape 1; 6
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation
1b) likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

NB. . . . resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

If any try to claim that "likeness" somehow means "not like us" then that god is a liar, a deceiver and a fraud.

For we are further exhorted to "follow Christ's steps", so unless "our flesh" is just the "same" as his flesh, then we can not do as the Scriptures demand that we do. (1 Pet. 2:21- 22)

Jesus was also tempted (Heb. 4:15)

God can not be tempted (James 1:13)

In order for a "legitimate" temptation to occur, the person tempted must be legitimately "open / susceptible" to that temptation, if not, then that person is a fraud and a false example. Jesus was only able to overcome his inherent sinful Adamic "cursed nature" that we "all" in the flesh inherently possess (Gen. 3:17; Rom. 3:23; Rom. 5:12), because God rewarded him with that power to resist it, because of Jesus' complete submission to God's Will, instead of Jesus following his own inherent sinful, self-will, as did Adam (Luke 22:42).

In God's Love
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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tcampen said:
If Jesus inhereted all the sins of all humanity, and the crucifixion plus nearly three whole days in hell was the price for those sins to allow saved individuals to go to heaven, don't you think he got off easy?

I mean, if the unsaved person spends eternity in hell for his own sins, it seems three days in hell for all humanity's sins just doesn't quite cut it. In other words, it would appear that the price for all humanity's sins should be at least somewhat greater than the price for one person's sins.

And even if one were to argue that every individual that goes to hell is also paying for the sins of humanity, then why wouldn't three days suffice?

It seems like whats good for the goose....

This is problem #5647834b for seeing Penal Substitution as the be all and end all of atonement.

It isn't.

What happened to Jesus was not the punishment due for our sins. Did Jesus die for our sins? Yes, most definitely. Was it "punishment"? No.

I've got an essay on this topic here: http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/believe.htm under the heading "Salvation", which explains my take on this.
 
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Tawhano

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Composer said:

Tawhano,
You can pervert the Scriptures as much as you like, it still does not support your twisted logic.

This is the logic barrier that exists debating with you. You pervert scripture and I demonstrate to you how you did so. You never defend yourself after I expose your misinterpretation but just repost the same exposed error. You say I pervert scripture but show no evidence that I do so other than to put words into my mouth that I never said.

Composer said:
Tawhano writes: God you are wrong all the time

Where did I write that? If you cannot show me where I wrote such a thing then you are a liar, it is as simple as that.

Composer said:
Then again, your attitude against those who expose your errors demonstrates that you are not a godly person in the slightest.

Then I have no problem with you because you haven’t exposed any errors of mine. All you have done so far is to put words into my mouth and attack that. Never once have you directly debated any interpretation of scripture I have posted.

Composer said:
Personally speaking, you can insult me all you like, for those insults are as false as your current doctrine.

Same here, I take your insults with a grain of salt. The difference is that I am willing to debate the issue and you simply ignore anything you don’t have an answer for.

Composer said:
Well actually the insinuation was that I was not to be allowed to debate at all, that if I wished to debate then I must go to another site.

On which post was this insinuation made?

Composer said:
All I wish to do is to express my sound and accurate Scriptural opinion without being attacked and being called a liar etc.
…and…
I KNOW, I have the Truth, I only wish to share it to those who are prepared to at least listen without attacking me falsely.

You are the one who attacks people falsely. Nothing said here about you and your ideas has been false. Show me where you have been falsely accused. You have lied and I have pointed it out to you where you lied. You take scripture out of context and I have shown where you do so and explain it to you.

Composer said:
The Truth shall stand regardless, so let us all please stay focused on the Scriptures and if any of our teachings are found wanting, then we must be prepared to examine "why?".

This is exactly what I have been trying to get you to do all along. You have not debated on any scriptures posted to you showing why we believe you are wrong. You have totally ignored them and simply post more bits and pieces of scripture and say we are wrong. When you post a scripture out of context I at least have the courtesy to explain to you why I believe it was taken out of context. You never return the favor and instead attack me personally and put words in my mouth.

Lets put all this rubbish behind us and get back to the business of debating in a proper way shall we?
 
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Composer

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I presume by my detractors silence that I have proven my case.

The Scriptures confirm that Jesus was indeed born of a "sinful flesh" as are all mortals. Yet Jesus was able to overcome that "devil" (personification of Sin in the Flesh) by totally submitting his inherent "self will" to doing only God's Will (Luke 22:42) KJS and thus was rewarded by God with the strength and capacity to never succumb to that inherent sinful nature, and thereby Jesus was rewarded by God to became the mediator that we must follow in his steps (1 Pet. 2:21 - 22) KJS and follow that perfect EXAMPLE he has now set in place.

Jesus did NOT die "for us", but died as the perfect "EXAMPLE for us" to follow.
 
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Sabian

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Follower of christ The thread we were talking on was closed so I'm going to post this here.

quote:OH NO, JESUS IS BREAKING THE LAW


And it happened on the second chief sabbath, He passed along
through the sown fields. And His disciples plucked the heads and
were eating, rubbing with the hands. But some of the Pharisees
said to them, Why do you do that which is not lawful to do on the
sabbaths? And answering, Jesus said to them, Have you never read
this, what David did when he hungered, and those being with him?
How he went into the house of God, and he took the Loaves of
Presentation, and ate, and even gave to those with him, which it is
not lawful to eat, except only the priests? And He said to them,
The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath also.
(Luk 6:1-5)

I must warn you I believe you are walking on dangerous ground By calling YAHSHUA a law breaker.

Then You clearly believe that YAHSHUA broke the LAW .
YAHSHUA could not have become the LAW made flesh if he broke the LAW.
YAHSHUA could not have fulfilled the LAW if He broke the LAW


YAHSHUA broke the LAW?

Mark 2:23 His explanition was about hunger. YAH provided enough food for the
israelites on sabbath.
Why they were sining is they were going to get more then they needed.
Is YAHSHUA spending the day working in this feild? or is he getting needed food?
Did YAHSHUA forget it was the sabbath? The Law is remember the Sabbath to keep
it set apart.
The Pharisees Knew by his answer that he was not breaking the LAW or they would
have taken hiw to Harod right then.

Was the healing breaking Sabbath. Well if it was the FATHER Broke his own LAW.
Because the healing came from the FATHER.

In Romans 7:22 Paul says that he delights in the law of ELOHIM after the
inward man. Paul held the LAW in high regard and admits that he was taught
according to the perfect manner of the LAW, Acts 22:3. He further states:
YAHSHUA was keeping the perfect manner of the LAW also.
Again YAHSHUA did not break the LAW writen in stone by YAH.
Paul says:
"This I confess unto you, that after the way which they call heresy, so
worship I the ELOHIM of my fathers, believing all things which are
written in the law and the prophets," Acts 24:14. Paul followed the
Bible’s teachings, but rejected the burdensome and erroneous man-made
teachings added by the Scribes and Pharisees.

Acts 26:22 and 28:23 reveal that Paul continually relied upon and quoted
the Old Testament for his authority. Paul was not against keeping the law!

Luke 13:15-16 YAHSHUA then answered him, and said, "You hypocrite, does not
each one of you, on the Sabbath, loose his ox or his *** from the stall, and lead
him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of
Abraham, whom the evilone has bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from
this
bond on the Sabbath day?" It is clear that we have responsibilities to our animals
which depend on us for their care. A milking cow must be milked twice every day;
but at
some size the herd will be too large to be cared for without breaking the Sabbath.
The
afternoon milking should be done just before Sabbath on the sixth day and then
immediately after Sabbath as the first day begins.




Luke 14:5 And YAHSHUA answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an
*** or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the
Sabbath day? An ox in a pit, water in the basement, a cut in someone's hand or
something spilled may each need attention immediately to prevent further damage
or to
relieve pain or distress. As YAHSHUA explained, it's just common sense to take
care of
these things. Be careful not to overdo this.

I know Matt 24:20 is not one of your scriptures listed but this will help too.

Mat 24:20 But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath
day. Do we in our day consider that the Sabbath is important enough that we would

hesitate to flee from danger because doing so may break the Sabbath? Isn't that
the
meaning of YAHSHUA's word?

Also in connection with travel think about the 'Sabbath day's journey.' This was a
distance determined by the Jewish leaders to limit walking on a Sabbath. It was
probably less than a mile. Neither Moses, the prophets, YAHSHUA nor the Apostles
said
anything about this being YAH's LAW. The principle of spending very little effort in
traveling on Sabbath is still a good idea.

If I am keeping sabbath the best I can and know how to do out of love and respect
to YAH,
then that would be worshiping YAH. It is true that you are to worship YAH
continually ,
but the sabbath day is sancifitied and set apart. A set apart day unto YHWH.

Worship:1) Reverance and respect to YAH.
2) acts or ceremonies displaying this.

Keeping sabbath the correct way is a act of LOVE To man and YAH.
Which is doing what YAH has comanded you to do. It is YAH's will.
Doing YAH's will out of love is worshiping YAH.
To follow any LAW of YAH out of love is to worship YAH.


In was not the LAW that was the burden. It was how man saw the LAW.
The LAW starts out with Remember the Sabbath.
Their is no proof that YAHSHUA concidered any other day the SABBATH.
If you have found the scripture you need to cash in.
Their is nothing wrong with the LAW the problem was with man.
YAHSHUA kept the LAW exactly how it was writen and supposed to be interpeted.
Man interpeted wrong.
The Sabbath is still the day of rest the day the FATHER set apart.
I can not explain it any better then I have throughout this thread.
It weird because you agree but only a little.
I stand on the LAW I have faith that The LAW is the best way to live.
I 100% believe that YAHSHUA is the LAW made flesh that he fulfilled the LAW
prefectly.
Without spot or blemish. Exactly how the LAW was writen.
I believe YAHSHUA is my example and I will follow him.
Even If I have to crawl up on a stake to save others.
If you can find a verse that says YAHSHUA made another day set apart I will follow.

But untill then I will remember the SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT SET APART THE BEST
I CAN.


Qustion is the LAW of YAH flawed? YHWH brought The Israelites out of slavery
He did not put them in slavery.
Did YHWH give the LAW to Moses and not explain how to keep them?
Did Moses go dowm and explain to the Israelites the wrong way to keep the LAW?
Was the message flawed from the begining.
If so that is not a very fare FATHER.
Sounds alot like my earthly father.
He would tell me to do something ,Not show me how, then beat me for not doing it
right.
Is that the way our Heavenly FATHER does things?
No I believe man twisted the meaning of the LAW.
To bind the LAW to your mind. means to learn them rread them every day.
To bind the LAW to your hand means to apply them in the Things you do.
Yet the Pharisees Bonded them to their hand with leather cord.
And wore the Scrolls in a box Bound to their head.
Were they missing the point or what?
How many times does it tell you in scripture to keep the commandments?
How many times does it tell you not to keep the commandments?
What does it say about the people that do not keep the commandments?
What does it say about the people that do the commandments?
Rev 22:14
Rev 14:12
Please think about what you said. There was no fault found in YAHSHUA.
If what you said where true then why did n't they stone YAHSHUA then?
That was the LAW. I think you need to rethink your statement.
 
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Tawhano

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Composer said:
I presume by my detractors silence that I have proven my case.

:D Nice try!

Lets examine how it is you have proven your case shall we?

Composer said:
…Jesus did NOT die "for our sins"…

The Scriptures say:
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;


Composer’s Defense:
Silence

Composer said:
…Jesus allegedly "substituting" himself for our sins…

The Scriptures say:
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Composer’s Defense:
Silence

Composer said:
Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17).

NB . . . "ye are yet in your sins".

So how can we still remain in our sins if they are all already eradicated by Jesus' Sacrifice "for us?"

The Scriptures say:
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Christ did rise so we are not in our sins.

Composer’s Defense:
Silence

Composer said:
Correct, Jesus was made a curse for us, in order to fulfill the Scriptures that he must be the Sacrificial Lamb (John 1:29) KJS, thereby the perfect "EXAMPLE for us" (1 Pet. 2:21) KJS that we might follow in his steps and do no sins likewise COPY as Jesus did.

The Scriptures say:

1 Peter 2
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


These verses are talking about a man that for conscience toward God endures grief will be found thankworthy. Verse 21 tells us that as Jesus suffered this is an example on how we too should endure suffering and in verses 22 and 23 we are told the examples we are to follow. We do not sin and offer guile, reviling or threats when we receive such but commit ourselves to God. Nothing here indicating that by following his example will bring salvation to us. In fact nothing in 1 Peter suggest it either. Finally in verse 24 it says Jesus bore our sins on that tree. You have to ignore a major portion of the Bible to believe that we can find salvation by simply following the example of Jesus. The scriptures teach us that mankind is unable to refrain from sin on his own.

Composer’s Defense:
Silence


There seems to be a pattern here Composer. You have not addressed any of the above discrepancies of your doctrine. It is your tactic to simply ignore any scripture that does not support your claims and to ignore any rebuttal on scriptures you are shown to take out of context. Before you can prove anything you need to address the issues above one by one. I know you are unable to and you will continue to ignore the fact that your doctrine has not scriptural support.
 
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Tawhano

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Composer Said:
I suggest you read my Post #23 that certainly addresses your ongoing misunderstandings and false claims.

I did, it didn’t. You need to directly address the scriptures that tell us clearly that Christ died for our sins.
 
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Tawhano

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Composer said:
All I wish to do is to express my sound and accurate Scriptural opinion without being attacked and being called a liar etc.

Then by all means do so but refrain from lying about me.

Composer said:
Then again, Jesus and those who followed him were abused and so Tawhano for example is only perpetuating those abusers who ridiculed Jesus.

Exposing your dishonesty and perverted interpretations of scriptures is not abuse. Your doctrine ridicules Jesus.

Composer said:
All I know is that whenever those I discuss my evidence with those who try to explain their teachings and those teachings are thus shown to be without foundation, then every excuse is made to try to get rid of me.

What evidence? All you have done so far is post scriptures out of context and ignore scriptures that say the opposite of your doctrine.

Composer said:
I KNOW, I have the Truth, I only wish to share it to those who are prepared to at least listen without attacking me falsely.

Then by all means show us the truth you are suppose to know and be prepared to defend it scripturally. No one has attacked you falsely.

Composer said:
The Scriptures say it all - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth ? (Gal. 4:16) KJS

No, you are the enemy because you speak ill of the sacrifice Jesus made for us. You speak no truth.

Composer said:
The Truth shall stand regardless, so let us all please stay focused on the Scriptures and if any of our teachings are found wanting, then we must be prepared to examine "why?".

Which is what I have been trying to get you to do from the beginning. Address the issues with the scriptures that say otherwise to your doctrine and the scriptures you take out of context.

Composer said:
Having said that, I now submit further PROOF that Jesus was born with inherent sins as ALL in the flesh are inherently born with and Jesus was NO different, unless it is claimed that he was NOT human like us at all -

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin} (Rom. 8:3) KJS

NB. - God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, . . . (Rom. 8:3)

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Where in any of the above verses does it hint that Jesus inherited sin? Nowhere! Jesus being sent in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh. How did he do that?

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


There was no sin found in Him. He was made in the likeness of our sinful flesh but He knew no sin.

Composer said:
For we are further exhorted to "follow Christ's steps", so unless "our flesh" is just the "same" as his flesh, then we can not do as the Scriptures demand that we do. (1 Pet. 2:21- 22)

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


How are we to follow in His footsteps if we having sinful flesh and in the flesh sin is found in us? It can’t be done in the flesh. See also my previous rebuttal against your interpretation of 1 Peter 2 which you continue to ignore.

Composer said:
Jesus was also tempted (Heb. 4:15)

God can not be tempted (James 1:13)

In order for a "legitimate" temptation to occur, the person tempted must be legitimately "open / susceptible" to that temptation, if not, then that person is a fraud and a false example. Jesus was only able to overcome his inherent sinful Adamic "cursed nature" that we "all" in the flesh inherently possess (Gen. 3:17; Rom. 3:23; Rom. 5:12), because God rewarded him with that power to resist it, because of Jesus' complete submission to God's Will, instead of Jesus following his own inherent sinful, self-will, as did Adam (Luke 22:42).

Where did you come up with “…because God rewarded him with that power to resist it…”? Scripture please.

You entire doctrine rests on that one verse in 1 Peter 2 about Jesus being an example, which you have taken out of context. Jesus resisted temptation because He had God’s Spirit in Him.

Luke 4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,


It is through this Holy Spirit that was given after the sacrifice that mankind can also resist sin.

John 7:38-39
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


We cannot obtain salvation by following the example of Jesus because in the flesh we are unable to resist sin. We can only please God in the Spirit.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Your doctrine, Composer, ignores all of this and purports that man is able to please God in his sinful flesh.

Composer Said:
I suggest you read my Post #23 that certainly addresses your ongoing misunderstandings and false claims.

As you can see from my rebuttal above your post #23 addresses none of my concerns about your false claims. Until you are willing to address directly the scriptures that have been posted to you which report that Jesus died for our sins I will consider your silence on the issue to be admittance of defeat.
 
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Composer

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The facts are that Jesus died FIRST for his OWN inherent Sins and THEN as the perfect EXAMPLE for others - Proof: -

For such an high priest became us, (who is) holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb. 7:26-27) -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore (it is) of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. (Heb. 8:3) -

Again Heb. 8:3 confirms that Jesus had to be offered as a sacrifice to overcome his inherent "Adamic Curse / sinful" nature. -

Overall proofs that Jesus had a "sinful nature" just as we "all" in the flesh possess! -

My case is proved beyong doubt.

QED
 
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Tawhano

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Composer said:
The facts are that Jesus died FIRST for his OWN inherent Sins and THEN as the perfect EXAMPLE for others

Composer said:
…Jesus did NOT die "for our sins"…

The fact is the scriptures say otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;


Are you ever going to address this scripture?

Composer said:
For such an high priest became us, (who is) holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb. 7:26-27) -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

Yeah that's good, repeat it a couple times and that makes it true.

Lets examine the verse you quote more closely shall we. We have seen in the past that you take scriptures out of context to build your defense so we cannot take your word on face value.

Hebrews 7
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.



Jesus was made a much better High Priest than those who came before Him. In verses 23 to 25 we are told that because Jesus lives forever he is last and forever the High Priest. Jesus was holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens. The High Priest first had to offer up a sacrifice for his sins because he needed to be undefiled before he could go into the Holy of Holies to offer up sacrifice for the people. Jesus was already undefiled and did not need to make a sacrifice for Himself. Verse 27 says exactly this. Jesus did NOT have to make daily sacrifice first for his sins then for the sins of the people as the High Priest did before. He made one sacrifice. Jesus died once.

Composer said:
For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore (it is) of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. (Heb. 8:3) -

Again Heb. 8:3 confirms that Jesus had to be offered as a sacrifice to overcome his inherent "Adamic Curse / sinful" nature.

Could you elaborate on that please? I don’t see Hebrews 8 confirming anything of the sort. It quite clearly says that as every high priest had gifts and sacrifices to offer Jesus also should have something to offer. It says nothing about his inherent "Adamic Curse / sinful" nature as you falsely claim.

Composer said:
Overall proofs that Jesus had a "sinful nature" just as we "all" in the flesh possess!

The scriptures quite clearly state otherwise:

Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;


Composer said:
My case is proved beyong doubt.

What case? Repeatedly misquoted scriptures? Silence on the scriptures that clearly say differently than you do? You haven’t proved one thing.
 
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Composer

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Composer writes: For such an high priest became us, (who is) holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb. 7:26-27) -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

You can ignore the Scriptural facts as much as you like but they will not go away for you. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves.

It is stated clearly that Jesus died FIRSTLY as a sacrifice for his OWN inherent sins. The reason why Jesus was "separate" from other sinners is because he and he alone DID NO ADDED SINS to those he already inherited. (1 Pet. 2:22) KJS

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin} (Rom. 8:3) KJS

NB. - God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, . . . (Rom. 8:3) KJS

Now if YOU / others say that Jesus was NOT sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, you will have to re-write the Bible.

Likeness is translated as EXACT likeness -

Strong's renders: -
BDB/Thayers # 3667
3667 homoioma {hom-oy'-o-mah}
from 3666; TDNT - 5:191,684; n n
AV - likeness 3, made like to 1, similitude 1, shape 1; 6
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation
1b) likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to
equality or identity

The Bible therefore states that Jesus was of a sinful flesh EXACTLY like us.

Your claims are false Tawhano.
 
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Tawhano

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Composer writes: For such an high priest became us, (who is) holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb. 7:26-27) -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -

You can ignore the Scriptural facts as much as you like but they will not go away for you. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves.

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once,

Then perhaps you can explain why you quote this verse and tell me Jesus died for His sins first and then for the peoples when you quite clearly do not believe this:

Composer said:
…Jesus did NOT die "for our sins"…

In your own words Composer you stand guilty:

“You can ignore the Scriptural facts as much as you like but they will not go away for you. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves.”
 
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Composer

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Jesus did not die FOR US, but he surely died FIRST for himself and then secondly as the Perfect EXAMPLE for us. (1 Pet. 2:21) KJS

I have maintained that consistently and the Scriptures agree with me that my understanding is correct. Proof: -

To this for you were called; because even Anointed suffered on behalf of you, to you leaving behind an example, so that you may follow in the steps of him; (1 Pet. 2:21) Diaglott Original Greek NT Text Interlinear
 
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Tawhano

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Composer said:
I have maintained that consistently and the Scriptures agree with me that my understanding is correct.

:sigh: Lets examine how it is that the Scriptures agree with you shall we?

Composer said:
…Jesus did NOT die "for our sins"…

The Scriptures say:
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;


Composer said:
…Jesus allegedly "substituting" himself for our sins…

The Scriptures say:
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Composer said:
Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17).

NB . . . "ye are yet in your sins".

So how can we still remain in our sins if they are all already eradicated by Jesus' Sacrifice "for us?"

The Scriptures say:
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


Christ did rise so we are not in our sins.

Composer said:
Correct, Jesus was made a curse for us, in order to fulfill the Scriptures that he must be the Sacrificial Lamb (John 1:29) KJS, thereby the perfect "EXAMPLE for us" (1 Pet. 2:21) KJS that we might follow in his steps and do no sins likewise COPY as Jesus did.

The Scriptures say:

1 Peter 2
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


These verses are talking about a man that for conscience toward God endures grief will be found thankworthy. Verse 21 tells us that as Jesus suffered this is an example on how we too should endure suffering and in verses 22 and 23 we are told the examples we are to follow. We do not sin and offer guile, reviling or threats when we receive such but commit ourselves to God. Nothing here indicating that by following his example will bring salvation to us. In fact nothing in 1 Peter suggest it either. Finally in verse 24 it says Jesus bore our sins on that tree. You have to ignore a major portion of the Bible to believe that we can find salvation by simply following the example of Jesus. The scriptures teach us that mankind is unable to refrain from sinning on his own.

Until you address the above scriptures and by your silence on them you have not proven a thing.
 
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Composer

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For such an high priest became us, (who is) holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb. 7:26-27) -

NB - first for his own sins, and then for the people's, for he (Jesus) did this once, . . . -
 
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usadingo

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Composer, you're constantly igonoring Tawhano, so I thought I'd help you see what you're missing. Could you address 1 Corinthians 15:3?
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
We're not asking you to repeat the same scriptures you post over and over again. All we're asking for is a response to this verse. Repition seems to help you though, so let me help...

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
 
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