Discussion The Sin of tattooing

[FoundInGrace]

I always thought the heart was more important before God than the body.
Grace...
We could all do with ministering more grace to others because outward appearance didn't seem to be what Jesus focused on He looks at our hearts.. thankfully.

 

[Alithis]

I always thought the heart was more important before God than the body.
Grace...
We could all do with ministering more grace to others because outward appearance didn't seem to be what Jesus focused on He looks at our hearts.. thankfully.

It is,and outward action comes forth ,from the abundance of the HEART the mouth speaks .what fills The HEART is made evident outwardly in the words and actions.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken Rank:

Hi, again. Just wanted to ask, since you raised the idea of self-mutilation: where do you think self mutilation begins? for example, ear piercing? surely not! So many Godly Christians happen to wear earrings. Nose piercing? even in the Bible some people/representative figures wore nose rings (I could give references, but I won't detain us). A simple faith based tattoo motivated by a God honouring desire to testify?

I would suggest instead that we need to go well beyond such examples before we really get into what self-mutilation properly refers to.

Agreed... earrings and other piercings seem fairly common although there was meaning behind them. The dumbbell nose ring that some young lady wears, or the nip^%$le piercing is done generally for fleshly reasons. Whereas the earring or nose ring would symbolize marriage, covenant, or other things in times past. The tattoos and other carving were done when mourning or to honor other gods. Our God, the true God, said this was wrong and should not be done. The reason most people do them today is, again, for fleshly reasons. Those I have run into who have verses, at least most I have engaged in conversation (which isn't many, it isn't my place to judge but I do get curious from time to time) have gotten tats with verses and used that to justify the practice. One man said, "God doesn't approve but since I am putting His Word on my arm it honors Him." No... I don't see it that way... if He said don't do it then you honor Him by not doing it. Not by doing it and then justifying it somehow.

 

[FoundInGrace]

So. Those who know and love the Lord Jesus and abide in him seeking always to do his will and to worship him in spirit and in truth will now have observed there is a wolf among the sheep.hell bent on promoting the demonicly inspired practice of cutting the flesh and so dishonouring God in whose image we are made.
And I do mean HELL bent.

There is absolutely NO godly source of this devil inspired self mutilation.
It is of note that when Jesus went to the demon posses man it states "he was cutting himself with stones. "
The cutting of the flesh is also how the devil attempted to torment (by whip) and slay Jesus .

It is also how the prophets of Baal invoked their demon God at ,as displayed at the time of Elijah.

To Oscar and Gideon and others,I thank you for your input.
But don't miss that the single point of this thread is to offset the practice of promoting tattoos by unscrupulous wolves and to let young people know.

Any one promoting this devil art is NEVER speaking by the spirit is Christ Jesus.

Just a quick note the cutting with stones the demonised guy could have been doing was cutting, self harm stuff which deserves compassion, I doubt he was tattooing himself but probably in so much torment he was self harming by cutting. Imho.

 

[Ken Rank]

I want to be clear... I am not judging. Even though I have a different conclusion (our bodies are HIS not ours to do with as we please - I don't think His character changes so those things which He called sin are still sin, etc,) I recognize that I could be wrong and ultimately we all have something. None are perfected and all will be corrected. The position @Alithis is taking, the staunch, "My understanding is correct and you all might accept that" is wrong... it is a form of heresy and I won't be part of that. Sorry if I offended anyone!

 

[FoundInGrace]

It is,and outward action comes forth ,from the abundance of the HEART the mouth speaks .what fills The HEART is made evident outwardly in the words and actions.

I agree... But no one except God can truly know the heart of someone. We are judged by God as we judge others... That is a sobering fact.
I used to live with someone who dressed Gothic when she went out and boy did she get judged, we went to church one time and the way people treated her.. but all she wanted was acceptance. The Gothic attire was partly a defence a mask for her against rejection. She never went back to church with me. It was really sad how people judged her based on her outward appearance.

 

[Ken Rank]

I agree... But no one except God can truly know the heart of someone. We are judged by God as we judge others... That is a sobering fact.
I used to live with someone who dressed Gothic when she went out and boy did she get judged, we went to church one time and the way people treated her.. but all she wanted was acceptance. The Gothic attire was a defence a mask for her against rejection. She never went back to church with me. It was really sad how people judged her based on her outward appearance.

Amen! And the bold/underlined line of yours is 100% correct. How we judge is how we will be judged. If we are quick, judged by SIGHT and without mercy... then God will judge us quickly, by sight, and without mercy. I would far rather err on the side of extending too much mercy to others.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Agreed... earrings and other piercings seem fairly common although there was meaning behind them. The dumbbell nose ring that some young lady wears, or the nip^%$le piercing is done generally for fleshly reasons. Whereas the earring or nose ring would symbolize marriage, covenant, or other things in times past. The tattoos and other carving were done when mourning or to honor other gods.

Re. ear piercing, there's also the bondservant symbolism latent below the surface in Psalm 40, Philippians 2, etc.

Re. tattoos, if we under the New Covenant (you see, I'm dispensational) impute to all young people with crosses, Christian fish signs <>< or Bible verses on their wrists, etc. the context of the activities of pagan mourning spoken of in Leviticus 19, many young people would find the stretch somewhat difficult to make, interpretationally. Even in the context of Leviticus 19, it's interesting that if those same young people were to ask about the very previous verse, "Well, what about the apparent prohibition of trimming one's beard? and why then do preachers shave?", are we then going to tell those young people that they are just being impertinent?

I guess my point is that on such matters - many of which may come under 'Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind (Romans 14) - there is never likely to be full unanimity of interpretation or understanding.

You are not doing this, I know; I sense you have a gracious Christian character; but when talking to young people about interpretations which have their subjective or at least multifaceted element, I don't like to take the line: You must submit to my authority! 'Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuehrer', and so forth.

PS: I don't think I've ever gotten around to discussing with young people n^^%$$e piercings which you mention (though it was done widely by fashionable society mothers and daughters in London and Paris in the 1890s).

 

[faroukfarouk]

I agree... But no one except God can truly know the heart of someone. We are judged by God as we judge others... That is a sobering fact.
I used to live with someone who dressed Gothic when she went out and boy did she get judged, we went to church one time and the way people treated her.. but all she wanted was acceptance. The Gothic attire was partly a defence a mask for her against rejection. She never went back to church with me. It was really sad how people judged her based on her outward appearance.

FoundInGrace:

In any case I think there are various degrees of Gothic: dark make up, mascara, black clothes: some of it part of a style revival of Victoriana: avant garde meeting old fashioned. Someone - albeit with slight piercing and ink - can overall look very traditional with Victoriana attire.

 

[Alithis]

I agree... But no one except God can truly know the heart of someone. We are judged by God as we judge others... That is a sobering fact.
I used to live with someone who dressed Gothic when she went out and boy did she get judged, we went to church one time and the way people treated her.. but all she wanted was acceptance. The Gothic attire was partly a defence a mask for her against rejection. She never went back to church with me. It was really sad how people judged her based on her outward appearance.

And yet... Jesus .the speaking of God，says a tree is known by its fruit.thus we are FULLY able to judge what type of tree it is .both able to and are supposed to.
So a tree that at its root is full of evil brings forth evil fruit.

So its very obvious what is in a persons heart..it comes out in thier words and thier actions.

In this case thier words that promote a demonicly inspired practice in disdain ，Not honour of the temple.Shows very plainly they are Never speaking from a heart filled with the holy spirit.bu a heart devoid of holiness to God.

 

[FoundInGrace]

I don't know that it is always as simple as a person does "xyz" therefore their heart must be full of rebellion or bitterness or sinfulness if some kind etc.
Eg the reasons and state of yr heart when you got your tattoos won't be the same as when another person got theirs so you can not judge anothers heart when they got tattoos based on your own path.
I think we need to be careful about outward behavior and saying it always is indicative of sinfulness in the heart...it may be simply learnt behavior or not knowing any different etc. We can not know only the Lord knows.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't know that it is always as simple as a person does "xyz" therefore their heart must be full of rebellion or bitterness or sinfulness if some kind etc.
Eg the reasons and state of yr heart when you got your tattoos won't be the same as when another person got theirs so you can not judge anothers heart when they got tattoos based on your own path.
I think we need to be careful about outward behavior and saying it always is indicative of sinfulness in the heart...it may be simply learnt behavior or not knowing any different etc. We can not know only the Lord knows.

It's also become a rite of passage at around 18. It used to be a man thing, particularly in the military, but now at about 18 both genders do it, so often.

I saw this quote from Dr Brooke Magnanti about how it's a rite of passage for young adults:

When I was growing up in the US, a tattoo was seen more as a rite of passage rather than a shocking statement: among adults I knew, not having one was far more unusual than having one.

dailytelegraph dot com dot uk

And of course a lot of Christian young people - many of them who might go on missions trips - choose something faith based for theirs.

 

[Alithis]

I don't know that it is always as simple as a person does "xyz" therefore their heart must be full of rebellion or bitterness or sinfulness if some kind etc.
Eg the reasons and state of yr heart when you got your tattoos won't be the same as when another person got theirs so you can not judge anothers heart when they got tattoos based on your own path.
I think we need to be careful about outward behavior and saying it always is indicative of sinfulness in the heart...it may be simply learnt behavior or not knowing any different etc. We can not know only the Lord knows.

We are not talkin xyz, we are talking about defacing the flesh .an act of carnal flesh that has no regard for the will of God.

Any one in witchcraft has no problem with the topic or its origins.
It is a practice that fully conforms to the spirit of this world that now works in the children of Disobedience.

 

[Alithis]

Our rite of passage is through the waters of baptism.where we die to our sinful nature and rise again through faith a new creation and "put on christ"
Not copy the sins of the world.

This naysayers needs to repent of opposing the spirit of God and get delivered.
No one promoting the demonic inspired act of defacing the flesh is speaking from the spirit of God.
Testthespirits..the Holy Spirit does not ever tell any one to do this.and since all scripture is given by his inspiration
He has already made it clear he opposes it .

 

[FoundInGrace]

We are not talkin xyz, we are talking about defacing the flesh .an act of carnal flesh that has no regard for the will of God.

Any one in witchcraft has no problem with the topic or its origins.
It is a practice that fully conforms to the spirit of this world that now works in the children of Disobedience.

I think what is being opposed is the harsh tone of the op.. which could be construed as being strongly judgmental, whether meant that way or not it is how it comes across. That is what is being opposed mostly.. at least that is what concerned me when I read it.

 

[FoundInGrace]

What I find most interesting about God is that He is incredibly merciful toward ignorance. Where someone truly has done anything without realising Gods view on things and the consequences God is incredibly merciful. Sometimes God does hold back consequences sometimes He doesnt. We do not know any persons level of understanding so we can not judge harshly all because not all are in the same boat. Ideally we can warn but not using condemnation and speaking with hate. Easier said than done and I am guilty of judging wrongly at times even though I get judged wrongly myself a great deal due to how I look. Because I do get judged wrongly though it hopefully has made me less likely to judge others and as a previous person mentioned be inclined to be found more merciful than the other way.

 

[FoundInGrace]

FoundInGrace:

In any case I think there are various degrees of Gothic: dark make up, mascara, black clothes: some of it part of a style revival of Victoriana: avant garde meeting old fashioned. Someone - albeit with slight piercing and ink - can overall look very traditional with Victoriana attire.

The person I referred to wore chains from her nose across her face and I guess was not the more Victorian look, more dark looking -long dark coat dark eyes pale face red lipstick, red shoes almost costume looking and actually a quite neat look I liked it but I can get why people weren't sure what to make of her because she looked quite dark perhaps it wouldn't be called pure Gothic look but alternative. I am not in that scene so I do not know exactly.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The person I referred to wore chains from her nose across her face and I guess was not the more Victorian look, more dark looking -long dark coat dark eyes pale face red lipstick, red shoes almost costume looking and actually a quite neat look I liked it but I can get why people weren't sure what to make of her because she looked quite dark perhaps it wouldn't be called pure Gothic look but alternative. I am not in that scene so I do not know exactly.

FoundInGrace: (great screen name, btw! )

Hi there; I think that the reaction of some parents and older people to when some of the current generation of young Christian adults dress differently is sometimes borne of some sort of fear that their dress code will somehow lead them into seriously rebellious and unChristian behaviour. There seems also to be the assumption sometimes that if only a cookie cutter reproduction of 60 year old dress code norms can be reproduced in young people, then their hearts and minds will supposedly follow.

Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. The Lord by His grace works from the inside, not from the outside.

I saw this post from a parent who evidently got some flak about her sons' piercings:

Two of my sons have their ears pierced, and we are certainly not overly permissive. ... We haven't had one problem with rebellion, drugs, or anything else with our sons, despite their ears being pierced.

welltrainedmind dot com

I guess a tattoo, which is for young adults a sort of rite of passage, is not too different from the earring custom which seemed to increase for both genders a few decades ago.

It makes me smile how some very conservative people appeal to the past in an attempt to encourage their idea of supposed taboos relative to jewelry, while forgetting that customs such as double pierced ears have been around for decades (if in 1979 a 19 year old - and even her mom aged 49 - got double ear piercings in 1979, the daughter would be 57 today and the mom would be 87).

The tattoo today for young adults as a rite of passage is in some ways a little like the ear piercing wave of decades back, I guess.

But of course subjective preferences and comparisons could be talked about ad infinitum, going round and round in circles.

 

[Alithis]

Again not a single mention of love for the word of God nor his will.
Just the demonicly inspired in insistance of justifying self will .

 

[Alithis]

What I find most interesting about God is that He is incredibly merciful toward ignorance. Where someone truly has done anything without realising Gods view on things and the consequences God is incredibly merciful. Sometimes God does hold back consequences sometimes He doesnt. We do not know any persons level of understanding so we can not judge harshly all because not all are in the same boat. Ideally we can warn but not using condemnation and speaking with hate. Easier said than done and I am guilty of judging wrongly at times even though I get judged wrongly myself a great deal due to how I look. Because I do get judged wrongly though it hopefully has made me less likely to judge others and as a previous person mentioned be inclined to be found more merciful than the other way.

Again this is not about what one person may or may not have done as they learn to HEAR and OBEY Jesus.
It is about those who shamefully and unrepentedly promote this act of defilment in opposition to the Holy spirit.
Holy... Seperated not of and not as the world who act in accordance with the spirit of antichrist Not the spirit of christ.

In the op i am not giving an uncertain trumpet sound and confusing the young in the lord.
I sm giving. A certain and sure sound.

As for its harshness. I say phooey.

Here is what jude says.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit....“
.....
Well.rather harsh .i jest to say，perhaps we should have it removed from scripture，irs altogether too hard to hear.please only say things that tickle our ears and do not make us uncomfortable.

No.this devil who promotes this behaviour is doing nothing more then promoting “doing whatever is right in ones own eyes“

The absolute oppisite of obedience to the holy spirit.