The Sign of Jonah? Jesus was in Hell?

[GoldenKingGaze]

Jesus warned to the Jews who ask with ill motive for a sign in the sky, that they were being wicked and that they would only be given the sign of Jonah. So I ask about the scriptures that suggest Jesus went to Hell after dying that Grudem and Erickson say are moot as proof of Jesus descent. Because those two theologians do not mention the sign of Jonah, in which Jonah descends to the moorings of the Earth, could Jonah chapter 2 prove Jesus descended and perhaps those other verses about Jesus preaching to souls in gloomy dungeons and descending and ascending really were about Jesus works below? Or at least Jesus did descend into Hell, pray there and won the victory of light over darkness?

 

[DW1980]

Hi

The problem with this is the KJV language which translates 3 words using the English word "hell". "Hell" in this case was Hades in Greek, Sheol in Hebrew. What we think of as hell is the word "Gehenna".

Hades/Sheol was simply the realm of the dead which consisted of two parts - Abraham's Bosom which was a restful place, and a darker side which was punishment (Luke 16:22-23, Rev 20:13 NIV). So when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise" and he went to Sheol, this is not inconsistent.

With Jesus' death the "door" to Heaven was opened (cf Rev 6:9-11)

 

[RaymondG]

What if the Gospels weren't in chronological order and the decent into and preaching to the souls in Hell was reference to His birth and ministry on earth?

 

[DW1980]

What if the Gospels weren't in chronological order and the decent into and preaching to the souls in Hell was reference to His birth and ministry on earth?

To me this seems unlikely. It says "the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead" (1 Peter 4:6), which from Peter's perspective would mean those long dead - see also 1 Peter 3:18-19 which says "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits"

 

[DW1980]

Jesus warned to the Jews who ask with ill motive for a sign in the sky, that they were being wicked and that they would only be given the sign of Jonah. So I ask about the scriptures that suggest Jesus went to Hell after dying that Grudem and Erickson say are moot as proof of Jesus descent. Because those two theologians do not mention the sign of Jonah, in which Jonah descends to the moorings of the Earth, could Jonah chapter 2 prove Jesus descended and perhaps those other verses about Jesus preaching to souls in gloomy dungeons and descending and ascending really were about Jesus works below? Or at least Jesus did descend into Hell, pray there and won the victory of light over darkness?

RE Jonah - I read an interesting perspective a while back. It suggested that Jonah was dead inside the fish (which would fit scientific understandings of being swallowed whole!). In Jonah 2:2 it says, "In my distress I called to the Lord, and he answered me. From deep in the realm of the dead (Hebrew: Sheol) I called for help, and you listened to my cry." This, if correct, would be an even greater parallel with what Jesus said about the sign of Jonah.

 

[RaymondG]

To me this seems unlikely. It says "the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead" (1 Peter 4:6), which from Peter's perspective would mean those long dead - see also 1 Peter 3:18-19 which says "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits"

You could be right. But also note that the living were called dead by the Lord as well. "Let the dead bury the dead."

 

[DW1980]

You could be right. But also note that the living were called dead by the Lord as well. "Let the dead bury the dead."

True, but calling someone who is living "dead" is clearly figurative of a spiritual reality. In 1 Peter it seems to be quite literal, since the context is Jesus' death which was definitely not figurative?

 

[prodromos]

Jesus descended into Hades. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and those who follow the same. It is presently empty.

 

[RaymondG]

Good point......also note that the Earth was the place that the the Lord cast the devil and his followers down to. The Earth was also a place Jesus descended to and Preached to the Dead.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Good point......also note that the Earth was the place that the the Lord cast the devil and his followers down to. The Earth was also a place Jesus descended to and Preached to the Dead.

The dead being the Pharisees? Jesus also said, "Feed my lambs".
Jesus did not only preach to the dead, but to some righteous men and women. Some became right.
As I see it, the dead were mainly those who did not have a preacher before judgement, Noah was only one and that world was judged without warning or opportunity.
The rich man and Lazarus story revealed a place of suffering. And Jesus mentioned sheep and goats on the right and the left.

 

[RaymondG]

The dead being the Pharisees? Jesus also said, "Feed my lambs".
Jesus did not only preach to the dead, but to some righteous men and women. Some became right.
As I see it, the dead were mainly those who did not have a preacher before judgement, Noah was only one and that world was judged without warning or opportunity.
The rich man and Lazarus story revealed a place of suffering. And Jesus mentioned sheep and goats on the right and the left.

I see nothing wrong with what you believe......But also note that Jesus stated this :"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I see nothing wrong with what you believe......But also note that Jesus stated this :"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

There are big issues Jesus addressed in His life and, death and resurrection. Listening to teachers and explaining scripture in the temple. Preaching to the sick for healing. Laying hands on little ones. Nicodemus a righteous man He met in secret. Rebuking and showing up religious leaders. Telling the crowds of faithful they needed to eat His body and drink His blood. Not all teaching was directed at sinners' repentances. And there was the teaching to the 12 and 72. Mission training. And to Mary, teaching post repentance. Jesus taught, laid on hands and healed and resurrected.

In death Jesus dealt powerfully with sickness, sin and death as a spirit power. He rose and attested this to the disciples and made the way to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit for Pentecost, a repetition of His life works in a grand way, exceeding the prophets.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Jesus mentioned outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. The rich man was in pain and thirsty, across a divide he could see Lazarus and Abraham, water. Jesus' apostle mentions gloomy dungeons. Jesus in Revelation has the keys of Hell and death. Jonah has an experience of the deep before coming ashore, the sign Jesus mentioned.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

By tradition Jesus light never died and conquered darkness. Satan was outwitted, he was proud. The rapid succession of event tricked him. Jesus is scourged, cursed in the cross, but at the last minute says it is finished, seems to be abandoned by God, and then dies. Satan took the bait. He didn't sin and die but overcame and gave up His own Spirit.

Satan thought he better take the chance. He wanted to obtain Jesus' power. Become God, rise above them.

Grudem and Erickson don't think this tradition started early enough and scripture does not prove it. It is in the apostolic succession. I think Augustine held to it. The theologians don't mention Jonah.

 

[thecolorsblend]

As others have said, Our Lord descended into the place of the dead to give the gospel to the departed.

It's a tricky concept to explain though. Sometimes pictures can speak a thousand words.

And memes can speak 24 words.

 

[Tayla]

Jesus went to Hell

Not the eternal hell but, rather, the holding tank for those who died before Jesus came to preach to them and set them free.

 

[Marco70]

Jesus warned to the Jews who ask with ill motive for a sign in the sky, that they were being wicked and that they would only be given the sign of Jonah. So I ask about the scriptures that suggest Jesus went to Hell after dying that Grudem and Erickson say are moot as proof of Jesus descent. Because those two theologians do not mention the sign of Jonah, in which Jonah descends to the moorings of the Earth, could Jonah chapter 2 prove Jesus descended and perhaps those other verses about Jesus preaching to souls in gloomy dungeons and descending and ascending really were about Jesus works below? Or at least Jesus did descend into Hell, pray there and won the victory of light over darkness?

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts2:31

Someone said:
Hell is a place where God's presence does not exist.

Viewed that way, it would seem easier to understand

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am just forming my firm conclusions about Jesus Christ between death and resurrection. I appreciate all your responses above. I tend to respect theologians works but not essentially. I am looking at both the Catholic Catechism and the Evangelical theology eclectically. Just read the Catechism on two days ago. I would like to see the Russian and Greek Orthodox works too. I am Spirit Filled. Also the Coptic writings would be good. And the Syrian before they pass away in persecution. God forbid.

Sola Scriptura is not perfect. Also Erickson left out Jonah as in my OP.

The traditions of the Apostolic succession and saints matter. Some of the saints were were found by God grasped him in return.

It is an important part of Jesus' life.

I think some of the scriptures considered moot in regards to Jesus death do actually refer to him.

I will bring out all the scriptures on this tomorrow. And quote Erickson on them. I will analyse them a bit. Scripture explains scripture, and the Holy Spirit teaches them.

It matters that some query why Jesus Christ had to come in the flesh and die and be resurrected. When he could already resurrect Lazarus. And God able to do anything could raise the dead without the Messiah. Death was somehow best overcome and swallowed up by this event of the death of Jesus. Satan is finished. Jesus said "it is finished" in regards to sin. And in the resurrection, death is finished. It goes back to Adam's hiding shame and God's zealous fiery love.

 

[Amittai]

In addition to foregoing:

The pharisaical are Assyrians

By time he got to Nineveh Jonah was damaged goods

(His earlier career had been predicting prosperity under Jeroboam II)

Jonah didn't go back, he stayed there

God had sent him to say to them "Look after my people" who got taken there soon after.

Esarhaddon "educated" Manasseh who sawed Isaiah in half (before or after - did Isaiah remind him of Esarhaddon?)

The lesson to us is to never utterly write off others as spiritually dead, but to pray for their revival or even resurrection - even when they are in the grip of a "movement" that kneejerks them.

(A parallel with differences is the life of Paul and the shipwreck when he helped save everyone)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Scriptures from Erickson

Psalm 16:10

Ephesians 4:8-10

1 Timothy 3:16

1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:4-6

Above from the apostle’s creed



Acts 2:27-31; 13:34-35

Luke 16:19-31



Compare

Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:3