The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

nolidad

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#8 is definitely Nero.. Suicide sent him to perdition.

Not at all! John wrote Revelation long after Nero! He can't be one to come.

John was not sent to Patmos until the reign of Domitian (cesar from 81-96) long after Nero!
 
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nolidad

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The little horn is that person. Commonly called the Antichrist, by reason of habit. But in actuality, as the little horn, that particular role he will be in - is not as the Antichrist.

The Antichrist has to be the person who is instead of, and against Jesus - Christ the king of Israel. The person to be in the role of the Antichrist - he has to become the king of Israel.

Differently, the little horn role is one of being the 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire. In the end times, the leader is the EU.

Being the beast, in that role, the person will have become the 8th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire, becoming dictator of the EU.

So, the distinction is - little horn, beast, king of the Roman Empire end times (a Julio-Claudian). The Antichrist, king of Israel (coming in his own name), a Jew, descended from David. It is the same person, with a unique background.

He will be identifiable when he becomes leader of Europe.

We went through this once before and it is still wrong!

Nowhere in SCripture does it say he has to be a king of Israel- that is reading into the text something not there.

Jesus is Messiah of the World not just Israel. And the prince of Rome to come makes a 7 year treaty with Israel and breaks it in the middle of the 7 years and sits in the temple declaring hilself God and declaring all out genocide against Israel and Christians. The beast, Antichrist. little horn, the eleventh horn. The eighth out of the 7 are all teh same person!

Rev. 17:
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

When John wrote this there was not a Julian/claudian Cesar on the throne! Domitian was Cesar and He was the last of the Flavian Dynasty.
 
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Josheb

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The topic of the thread is not me.
Correct.

But method is as important as content and one of the measures Dispensationalists are constantly using is the fallaciously post hoc response, "When did that happen?" so I'm applying that concept as it should be applied. If Dispensationalism and its adherents repeated claim the Dispensational view is ten years away (or five, or 20) then that is a valid means of measurement. The intrinsic relationship between false teaching and false teachers is something scripture mentions quite often in regard to eschatology. The great irony is at the time of the tribulation "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many" (Mt. 24:11). The only eschatology that foments these false teachers is Dispensationalism.

It is good and valid and will prove veracious to point this out with any eschatological prognostication brought to bear on contemporary Christians.

You're not just a futurist, Douggg. All who look to a future return of Christ are futurists, me included. Similarly, all who accept Jesus as Messiah are preterist to one degree or another. One of the problems revealed in this discussion is you deny these things.

I'd like to give you credit for early-dating the book of Revelation but I can't do that because you deny the preterism of asserting Nero as the sixth king. In other words, the position asserted in this op has an internal discrepancy. If (and when) I read an acknowledgment of the logically necessary implications of Nero as the sixth king then I will move one with greater hope because then you will have conceded a very important first century context. As I have already shown you and all the readers, reading the prophesies as written, properly exegeted in context of the first century writer, audience, and intent is necessary for proper understanding.

You claim Nero is the sixth king but resist the implications of that position.​

It is not person, Douggg. It may feel personal because you got caught in a contradiction. That is textbook Jon 3:20.

"Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

So it's not personal, Dougg. This is a problem inherent with the eschatology to which you subscribe. This problem is a reason for you to re-examine your affinity and affiliation with this eschatology and be more critiqual and more critical of what you read and hear when preachers teach on the end times. This problem has existed since the beginning of ever-imminent far-futurism, especially in its Premillennial Dispensational iteration. Darbyism fails for many reasons but this is an important one: it makes its adherents false prognosticators. False, unaccountable, unrepentant, and disobedient false prognosticators.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."[/i]​

So I exhort you to think about the content, the method, and the consequences of this op.

Nero is the sixth king, placing Revelation prior to 70 AD but for someunexplained and therefore unjustified position there is this huge gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week that absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the original audience of the pre-70 AD Christian but this unjustified gap is going reach fulfillment in the next ten years.

This is what you are telling Christians here to believe.




The solution is simple: Yes, Nero was the sixth king and the seventh king also existed during the first century and therefore had relevance for the original writer and the original readers of Revelation. Whether Galba or not the seventh "king" was tied to the Roman Emperors of the first century.

There's no need to prognosticate a far-futurism.
 
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Who has claimed Galba was the beast?

If Galba succeeded the 7th monarch then he would be the beast. The scriptures say that the 8th monarch becomes the beast which continues for a short time 42 months.

It's common sense man
 
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Douggg

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nolidad

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Correct.

But method is as important as content and one of the measures Dispensationalists are constantly using is the fallaciously post hoc response, "When did that happen?" so I'm applying that concept as it should be applied. If Dispensationalism and its adherents repeated claim the Dispensational view is ten years away (or five, or 20) then that is a valid means of measurement. The intrinsic relationship between false teaching and false teachers is something scripture mentions quite often in regard to eschatology. The great irony is at the time of the tribulation "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many" (Mt. 24:11). The only eschatology that foments these false teachers is Dispensationalism.

It is good and valid and will prove veracious to point this out with any eschatological prognostication brought to bear on contemporary Christians.

You're not just a futurist, Douggg. All who look to a future return of Christ are futurists, me included. Similarly, all who accept Jesus as Messiah are preterist to one degree or another. One of the problems revealed in this discussion is you deny these things.

I'd like to give you credit for early-dating the book of Revelation but I can't do that because you deny the preterism of asserting Nero as the sixth king. In other words, the position asserted in this op has an internal discrepancy. If (and when) I read an acknowledgment of the logically necessary implications of Nero as the sixth king then I will move one with greater hope because then you will have conceded a very important first century context. As I have already shown you and all the readers, reading the prophesies as written, properly exegeted in context of the first century writer, audience, and intent is necessary for proper understanding.

You claim Nero is the sixth king but resist the implications of that position.​

It is not person, Douggg. It may feel personal because you got caught in a contradiction. That is textbook Jon 3:20.

"Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

So it's not personal, Dougg. This is a problem inherent with the eschatology to which you subscribe. This problem is a reason for you to re-examine your affinity and affiliation with this eschatology and be more critiqual and more critical of what you read and hear when preachers teach on the end times. This problem has existed since the beginning of ever-imminent far-futurism, especially in its Premillennial Dispensational iteration. Darbyism fails for many reasons but this is an important one: it makes its adherents false prognosticators. False, unaccountable, unrepentant, and disobedient false prognosticators.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."[/i]​

So I exhort you to think about the content, the method, and the consequences of this op.

Nero is the sixth king, placing Revelation prior to 70 AD but for someunexplained and therefore unjustified position there is this huge gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week that absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the original audience of the pre-70 AD Christian but this unjustified gap is going reach fulfillment in the next ten years.

This is what you are telling Christians here to believe.




The solution is simple: Yes, Nero was the sixth king and the seventh king also existed during the first century and therefore had relevance for the original writer and the original readers of Revelation. Whether Galba or not the seventh "king" was tied to the Roman Emperors of the first century.

There's no need to prognosticate a far-futurism.

Wow! So dispensationalists are wolves in sheep s clothing to you! Good to know! Dispensational eschatology is futurist!
 
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Douggg

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But method is as important as content and one of the measures Dispensationalists are constantly using is the fallaciously post hoc response, "When did that happen?" so I'm applying that concept as it should be applied.
Read the information below my screen-name.

"anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist"
 
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nolidad

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Your problem is that you are a poor student of the language the bible was written in. If the term antichrist was originally written as "heterochristos", then your hypothesis would be absolutely correct! For then the antichrist would be "another Christ but of a different kind"

But it is written "antichristos" which is simply "an enemy of Christ". So He has no need to be a future king of Israel. He just needs to oppose Jesus! All the miracles and his resurrection are to decieve th emasses- not just Israel!
 
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Josheb

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Probably not. Nero died in 68 AD and that would be early and long before even the most extreme scholars think John of Patmos wrote Revelation.
If I haven't done so already, I encourage you to pick up a copy of "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Ken Gentry. It's a bit laborious in places but he covers the external and internal evidence to show Revelation was written prior to 70 AD and how much consensus Christian theologians have had on the matter over the last 2000 years.

The book was his doctoral dissertation. It was therefore peer-reveiewed and rigorously questioned and defended prior to publication.
What is known is that people were terrified of Nero and feared he might return from the dead and lead an invading army of Parthians across the Euphrates to reinstitute the persecutions.. That superstition continued until the 5th century. Furthermore, there were Jews and new Christians who thought Nero would return as another Roman Emperor like Domitian.
Yes, but that does nothing to establish the beginning and end points of the tribulation, which is what I asked of you.

I don't wholly agree with Gary Demar's account of events but I do think his view is good to read so we can understand how profound and legitimate the events prior to 70 AD do in fact explain the tribulation. Gentry's book is a must, imo. Demar's book, "Last Day's Madness" is unnecessarily polemic but it is measurably a better case for first-century fulfillment than this op is for 21st-century fulfillment.




I will not belabor my inquiry further but I am disappointed to have received avoidant responses and not answers to the questions asked. I will also correct something I posted earlier because I was confusing the tribulation with the abomination. The tribulation is tied to persecution, which begins with Jerusalem, not Rome. The abomination is tied to Zealots, not Rome.
 
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Douggg

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But it is written "antichristos" which is simply "an enemy of Christ". So He has no need to be a future king of Israel. He just needs to oppose Jesus!
An enemy specific to Jesus being the promised king of Israel descended from king David - i.e. the Christ, the messiah.

Anti - can mean against, or instead of, or both. In the case of the Antichrist, both.

The Jews are looking for the messiah, to be anointed the king of Israel. They believe the person will be anointed the king of Israel by a known prophet. Every passover meal, they set a place for Elijah. The Jews believe that some persons are reincarnated.

Moses made it a requirement of all future leaders of Israel to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year interval. The Jews still hold to that requirement. Can't be done as long as the muslims are on the temple mount. The 7 years following Gog/Magog will make it possible. The seven years are in Ezekiel 39, which after Gog's mass grave buriel, there is the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20, with Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to earth to rule the nations, and reflecting of why the house of Israel went in dispersion for having transgressed against him.

Jesus does not return until Jerusalem says blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Matthew 23:39. In John 12:12-15, before being rejected by the religious leaders, his followers welcomed him riding into Jerusalem riding the donkey, Zechariah 9:9..... "13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

And you say that the Antichrist does not have to be the king of Israel, coming in his own name?

All the miracles and his resurrection are to decieve th emasses- not just Israel!

He doesn't do any miracles to become the king of Israel. The Jews will embrace him as their promised messiah because according to the Rambam, their authority on the messiah, the person fights the battles of God in defending Israel. It will look that way to them.

The lying miracles don't come under the person's time as the king of Israel, Antichrist, is over and has become the beast. His time as the king of Israel will be over when he claims to be God, and the Jews reject him and his claim.
 
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Douggg

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If Nero is the sixth king then Revelation is pre-70 AD. There is nothing in the cited texts asserting a 2- century break between the 69th and 70th week. NOTHING! Since the evidence asserted in this op of Nero as the sixth king that "is" we have reason to understand the seventh king is also first century.
70 AD is not in Revelation.

Is there a gap between when Jesus was cutoff in Daniel 9:26 and his Second Coming, in Revelation 19?
 
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Erik Nelson

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Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudian family leaders. The 7 kings are all related. Of the same family. The Julio-Claudians. Julius Caesar was the first of the Julio-Claudians, but was not an emperor, but dictator for life. Thus is not in the list of emperors.

Julio-Claudian dynasty - Wikipedia

"The Julio-Claudian dynasty was the first Roman imperial dynasty, consisting of the first five emperorsAugustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero[1]—or the family to which they belonged. They ruled the Roman Empire from its formation under Augustus in 27 BC until AD 68 (95 years), when the last of the line, Nero, committed suicide"

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 are:

1. Julius Caesar (dictator for life)

2. Augustus (1st emperor)

3. Tiberius (2nd emperor)

4. Caligula (3rd emperor)

5. Claudius (4th emperor)

6. Nero (5th emperor)

7. The end times little horn person (forthcoming leader of the EU)
How can that be, when both the 7th head, and body = 8th king = "of the 7"...

the first 8 Beastly leaders are all of the same line...

The Julio-Claudian dynasty, from Caesar to Nero to Galba / Otho / Vitellius

The break between the 7 Heads (+Body) and 10 horns is the break between the Julio-Claudian dynasty and all future emperors (Vespasian, Titus, Domitian et al) caused by the Year of Four Emperors amidst the Jewish War
 
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timtams

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Not at all! John wrote Revelation long after Nero! He can't be one to come.

John was not sent to Patmos until the reign of Domitian (cesar from 81-96) long after Nero!
The latest research points to an exile in Nero's reign.
 
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Douggg

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How can that be, when both the 7th head, and body = 8th king = "of the 7"...

the first 8 Beastly leaders are all of the same line...

The Julio-Claudian dynasty, from Caesar to Nero to Galba / Otho / Vitellius
It is the Julio-Claudian Caesar family dynasty. Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians. Galba was not a Julio-Claudian. Galba is not part of the group.*

In Revelation 13, the body of the first beast represents the kingdom of the beast (the 8th king). The composite makeup indicates that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the kingdom of the beast will control the territories of the 3 historic kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greek. In tangible terms, it means the EU will be controlling all the oil rich territory in the middle east.

The beast king will be dictator over the EU at that time. And the ten EU leaders, represented by the horns, having their crowns in Revelation 13 will rule with him.

None of the heads have crowns in Revelation 13, because with the death, mortally wounded head (king 7) but healed, the prophecy of the 7 kings is over at that point.

King 7 will have transitioned, come back to life, to be king 8 the beast.

This is borne out in Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Erik, in those two verses, it is no longer emphasizing the head that was mortally wounded, but healed, but the beast - indicating the transition of the person from being king 7 (the head) to having become the beast king 8.


__________________________________________________________

* Erik, in your "both the 7th head, and body = 8th king = "of the 7"..."

Galba, Otho, Vitellius would have no connection as being the lion, bear, leopard make up of the beast's body in Revelation 13.
 
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timtams

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If I haven't done so already, I encourage you to pick up a copy of "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Ken Gentry. It's a bit laborious in places but he covers the external and internal evidence to show Revelation was written prior to 70 AD and how much consensus Christian theologians have had on the matter over the last 2000 years.

The book was his doctoral dissertation. It was therefore peer-reveiewed and rigorously questioned and defended prior to publication.
I think this description exaggerates the book's merits, somewhat. It was written as a dissertation at Whitefield Theological Seminary, which is not accredited and whose courses are mostly by distance learning. It hasn't been published in an academic press and therefore isn't what one would usually understand as "peer reviewed," though obviously his doctoral committee read and approved it. It has little interaction with modern or foreign scholarship and contains significant errors of fact.
 
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