The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

[summerville]

It is not 7 emperors, but 7 kings who are related. Galba was insignificant. The seven kings are the Julio-Claudian Caesars, that rule(d) following the destruction of the republic.

Galba was not a Julio-Claudian. He was a significant king, did nothing significant, to be the fulfillment of the 7 king prophecy.

The 7king prophecy will be fulfilled end times - the heads (the kings) have crowns in Revelation 12, not in Revelation 17 (when the king 6 was ruling). Revelation 12 has the 7 year 70th week in it; Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days followed by Revelation 12:14 the time, times, half time.

King 7 will be the cap stone to the 7 kings prophesy, fulfilling it. He will be a significant person in bible prophecy. He will be the little horn person.

Scholars disagree.....

Why the Little Horn of Daniel 8 Must Be Antiochus Epiphanes
Why the Church Needs a Membership Adjustment Before 2020 | Adventist Todaylittle-horn-of-daniel-8-must-be-antiochus-epiphanes
Jan 14, 2018 · Modern Bible commentators are almost unanimous in seeing the Greek king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, as the fulfillment of the little horn of Daniel, chapter 8. Antiochus Epiphanes was an erratic megalomaniac who made it his express purpose to …


Why Antiochus IV Is Not The Little Horn Of Daniel 8 ...
Index of /articles2antiochusiv.htm
Thus they hold that the little horn rose from one of the divisions of Alexander's empire. They conclude that the activities of the little horn unmistakably point to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Futurists generally follow this line of interpretation also.

 

[Josheb]

It will all happen quickly like a flood, when the 7th king comes to power.

Reading more additions into the text.

Cursing yourself.

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."​

.

Galba was not the fulfillment of the 7 kings prophesy.

Sure he was. And nothing you've posted proves otherwise.

The heads on the beast do not have their crowns until Revelation 12, right before the 70th week 7 years begin.

Once again, you're adding things to the text the text never states. The only crown mentioned in Rev. 12 is that of the harlot.

Revelation 12:1-2
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."​

Who does scripture say might have been the woman with a crown of twelve stars? Who is it the Christians of the first century would have understood that to be? Neither are there any weeks mentioned in Rev. 12, the 70th or otherwise.

So, once again, your interpretations fail.

No, I am not a preterist.

You are if you believe Nero was the king that "is" when Revelation was written.

I don't believe that 70 AD was fulfillment of the end times prophesies.

Which is why your interpretations are so inane and bear little resemblance to the actual text of scripture.

The 70th week is still future of us...

No, it is not.

...although not the distant future.

Oh look, now you are timeframe-setting.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."​

But you know it's not the distant future. How soon is it, Douggg?

Keep an eye on Europe for a change in their structure, to some form of ten leader makeup with one leader over them.

No thanks. You watch while I continue working on expanding God's kingdom here and now with every opportunity God brings me. Don't want to be empty handed when he comes because I was idle watching instead of doing.


Nice chatting with you, Douggg. When you read end times arguments ask yourself "Is what I am reading what those in the first century would have understood?" because if it isn't possible for the first century reader to understand what a 21st century teacher is teaching then the 21st century teacher is wrong and you should stay as far away from that "teaching" as possible. One of the most basic and fundamental rules of proper exegesis is to understand scripture as the original writer intended and the original reader would have understood it.

Nero was. Galba remained for a little while.

Revelation 17:10-11
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. "​

Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 1
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 2
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 3
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 4
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 5
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 6
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 7

 

[friend of]

That's 12. The book of Revelation talks about an 8th and Final king. You, on then other hand, are talking about the continuity of kings.

 

[Josheb]

Because only having 1 scripture to back up your claim is weak.

You did not hold the op to the same standard. He's proof-texted a single verse in this op. I don't read you telling him his op is "weak." Come, join me in doing so.

Otherwise, don't assert double standards. Treat all posters' arguments uniformly.

Because only having 1 scripture to back up your claim is weak.

You have not read through all of the posts, have you?

 

[friend of]

You have not read through all of the posts, have you?

How about you present all the scriptures in favor of your view in bullet point format and I'll respond to them. So far you have that Galba remained for a little while.

Galba remained for a little while

Big deal. What else supports that Galba was 8th king?

 

[summerville]

Reading more additions into the text.

Cursing yourself.

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."​

.

Sure he was. And nothing you've posted proves otherwise.

Once again, you're adding things to the text the text never states. The only crown mentioned in Rev. 12 is that of the harlot.

Revelation 12:1-2
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."​

Who does scripture say might have been the woman with a crown of twelve stars? Who is it the Christians of the first century would have understood that to be? Neither are there any weeks mentioned in Rev. 12, the 70th or otherwise.

So, once again, your interpretations fail.

You are if you believe Nero was the king that "is" when Revelation was written.

Which is why your interpretations are so inane and bear little resemblance to the actual text of scripture.

No, it is not.

Oh look, now you are timeframe-setting.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."​

But you know it's not the distant future. How soon is it, Douggg?

No thanks. You watch while I continue working on expanding God's kingdom here and now with every opportunity God brings me. Don't want to be empty handed when he comes because I was idle watching instead of doing.


Nice chatting with you, Douggg. When you read end times arguments ask yourself "Is what I am reading what those in the first century would have understood?" because if it isn't possible for the first century reader to understand what a 21st century teacher is teaching then the 21st century teacher is wrong and you should stay as far away from that "teaching" as possible. One of the most basic and fundamental rules of proper exegesis is to understand scripture as the original writer intended and the original reader would have understood it.

Nero was. Galba remained for a little while.

Revelation 17:10-11
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. "​

Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 1
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 2
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 3
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 4
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 5
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 6
Link to guidelines for Biblical exegesis 7

The tribulation didn't last 7 years... Just 42 months.

You all do know that the year 69 AD had FOUR emperors.

 

[Josheb]

The tribulation didn't last 7 years... Just 42 months.

Start and end markers, please. Do you start from the zealots' take over, or the Roman siege? I would start with the former.

You all do know that the year 69 AD had FOUR emperors.

Yep. From June 68 until December 69 there were five: Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian.

 

[Josheb]

That's 12. The book of Revelation talks about an 8th and Final king. You, on then other hand, are talking about the continuity of kings.

It does not say "final." It says there is an eighth. It does not say "final"

Revelation 17:10-13
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."​

Scripture is understood much better when things it nowhere states are not added to it.

 

[friend of]

Scripture is understood much better when things it nowhere states are not added to it.

Who were the 10 kings that ruled with the beast then?

 

[Douggg]

Once again, you're adding things to the text the text never states. The only crown mentioned in Rev. 12 is that of the harlot.

Revelation 12:1-2
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

No, it is in the text. You just got the wrong verse.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

conversely, in Revelation 17, no crowns on the heads, nor horns...

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

conversely, in Revelation 13, crowns on the horns, but not the heads, one head had been mortally wounded.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

You are if you believe Nero was the king that "is" when Revelation was written.

I am not a preterist. Preterists believe that the majority of the prophecies have already been fulfilled. I do not. I am futurist.

But you know it's not the distant future. How soon is it, Douggg?

The forum has rules that prevent me from giving that information. But the parable of the fig tree indicates that the generation that sees Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews will not pass away until all of the prophecies in Matthew 24 are fulfilled.

I wlll pm you when.

 

[friend of]

Galba is clearly far too insignificant to be the Beast of Revelation.

 

[summerville]

Start and end markers, please. Do you start from the zealots' take over, or the Roman siege? I would start with the former.

Yep. From June 68 until December 69 there were five: Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian.

I think the tribulation began in 66 AD.

 

[Josheb]

Who were the 10 kings that ruled with the beast then?

You don't get to change the topic, friend of. It is bad practice.

If you have a genuine interest in the answers to these questions then I suggest you pick up a copy of "Last Days Madness" by Gary Demar and read it. The get a copy of Kim Riddlebarger's "The Case for Amillennialism."

Until then, if you genuinely have specific questions then post one, two, or three of them in your own op. Any more than three and an op gets too complicated. Many posters from many perspectives will gladly answer your sincere inquires. If you're sincerely interested then you won't be arguing, you'll be inquiring. Whatever you choose, do not hijack another poster's op. It's rude and disrespectful and shows you to be a poster who has difficulty staying on topic.

 

[Josheb]

Galba is clearly far too insignificant to be the Beast of Revelation.

Who has claimed Galba was the beast?

 

[Josheb]

I think the tribulation began in 66 AD.

Great. You think the tribulation began on 66 AD. Upon what is that position based? You believe the trib lasted 42 months, not 49. Great. What do you see as the beginning and end dates, events, or markers of that tribulation? Are you counting the beginning of the revolt, or the Roman response to it? I would count the former.

 

[Josheb]

No, it is in the text. You just got the wrong verse.

No, you didn't cite the verse. You don't blame others for your own lapses.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Conversely, in Revelation 17, no crowns on the heads, nor horns...

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Conversely, in Revelation 13, crowns on the horns, but not the heads, one head had been mortally wounded.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Yep. And I have already addressed all of that in a previous post. A single sentence covered all of that and it has been ignored. You are, once again, not attending to information posted, not furthering the discussion, and in that neglect wasting both our time.

I am not a preterist. Preterists believe that the majority of the prophecies have already been fulfilled. I do not. I am futurist.

You can post that all you like but the evidence speaks for itself.

If you believe Nero was the king that is then you must also believe Revelation was written before 70 AD. Logic demands that of you. Revelation 17:10 states one king "is" and one will remain a little while. You are on record stating Nero is the sixth king, the king that coincides with the king that "is." That is preterist.

You might not like that fact but it is the fact on record. You might not like where that takes you, but that is the fact on record. No one tricked you into posting what was posted; you posted it all on your own freely; unfettered by anyone in this discussion.

So either own up to it or discard everything that got you to thinking Nero was the king that "is" in Revelation 17:10. Or don't discard it. I happen to think you are correct. Nero was ruling Rome when Revelation was revealed. You and I are in good company because scores of noted theologians have agreed Revelation was written prior to 70 AD. Ken Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fall," is an excellent survey of the evidence for that position.

Now why it is you think there is this huge time span between the 69th and 70th week is what you should have asked your teachers before you bought into far-futurism. There was a break, but it was not 1950+ years. There is nothing in the scriptures justifying such an interpretation and such an interpretation instantly renders much of scripture irrelevant to those generations of Christians living in the interim. Scripture is never meaningless, Dougg. This is another one of the ways in which sound exegetical principles help us discard false teachings when we hear/read them.

If Nero is the king that is then you are in fact asserting a preterist position. What you are saying is Revelation 17:10's first six kings have all already come and gone AND the book of Revelation was reveal prior to the sixth king's death. That is preterist. If Nero is the sixth king of Revelation 17 that has logically necessary implications for Revelation 12 and 13. Logically necessary implications that are preterist. No way for you to escape this if you're sticking to Nero being the sixth king.

 

[Josheb]

The forum has rules that prevent me from giving that information. But the parable of the fig tree indicates that the generation that sees Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews will not pass away until all of the prophecies in Matthew 24 are fulfilled.

I wlll pm you when.

I got the message. Your belief is ten years away. What will you do when nothing predicted happens by then? Will you listen to the false teachers as they "recalculate"? Will you note none of them acknowledge their teachings were false, making them false teachers? Will you take responsibility and accept culpability and accountability for have spent so much time and so much cyberspace arguing with Christian brothers and sisters over what will by then have proven to be false information? Will you be accountable for this op? If I'm still alive and ask you about you errors and false teachings and lack of accountability will I read repentance or rebellion?

You're not alone in this, Douggg. David Jeremiah has said he believes Jesus is coming back within his lifetime. David Jeremiah is 79 years old. If he lives five more years then he has predicted Jesus will come back within the next five years. If he lives another ten years then he's taught his audience worldwide Jesus is coming within the next ten years. Now if Mr. Jeremiah dies and Jesus has not returned as Mr. Jeremiah teaches then in that instant of his final breath he will have proven a false teacher, but since he's dead there will be no means for the church to hold him accountable (not that Dispensationalists ever hold their false teachers accountable for their falsehoods). Hal Lindsey has said the same thing. He is 90 years old. What's the likelihood Lindsey will live another five, ten, fifteen, or twenty years? You, on the other hand, might still be alive, drawing breath and pumping blood in ten years. Will you be accountable for this op if and when it proves false in ten years?

Tell us now so we know what kind of Christian you are.





I covered Rev 12 and 13 in cursory manner and that content is sitting silently in the op ignored. You are copying and pasting scripture together without warrant and you are not providing any rationale for doing so. You are regurgitating things you learned from others you do not name. When asked about these things you prove incapable of providing such explanations. When confronted with conflicts within your own position, like Nero being the sixth king making Revelation early-date and you're unawareness your own position has preterist parts you deny it. You are on record doing so.

I am not a preterist.

I am not a preterist.

I am not a preterist.

I am not a preterist. Preterists believe that the majority of the prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Yep. Preterists believe the majority of prophesy has been fulfilled. You believe every prophesy related to and preceding Nero has been fulfilled. That is the logically necessary conclusion to what you have here asserted.

You can call yourself a futurist, and you are definitely a futurist, but you're an inconsistent futurist and as far as I can tell you do not critique your sources or your own position very well.


Revelation was written before Nero died.
Revelation was written by a first century regenerate believer with first century intent and application.
Revelation was written so first century Christians understood it and applied it.

There is nothing in the text of Revelation that says any of it is being fulfilled in the 21st century.

And in ten years you're culpable for all this.

 

[Josheb]

I think the tribulation began in 66 AD.

Yes. I read that the first time it was posted. I understand that is what you think. You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.

You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.
You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.
You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.
You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.
You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.
You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.

I get it. You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD.

Now I am trying to further the conversation by asking you what markers are you considering the beginning and end of the tribulation and whether or not you begin with Rome of Jerusalem.

summerville, the response, "I don't know for sure, Josh," is a completely fine and acceptable response.

But if you have that information I'd like to know what it is. So please do not unnecessarily repeat content you've already post and I have already twice or thrice quoted you saying. You believe the tribulation began in 66 AD. Great.

What markers are you using?

 

[Douggg]

I got the message. Your belief is ten years away. What will you do when nothing predicted happens by then? Will you listen to the false teachers as they "recalculate"? Will you note none of them acknowledge their teachings were false, making them false teachers? Will you take responsibility and accept culpability and accountability for have spent so much time and so much cyberspace arguing with Christian brothers and sisters over what will by then have proven to be false information? Will you be accountable for this op? If I'm still alive and ask you about you errors and false teachings and lack of accountability will I read repentance or rebellion?

You're not alone in this, Douggg. David Jeremiah has said he believes Jesus is coming back within his lifetime. David Jeremiah is 79 years old. If he lives five more years then he has predicted Jesus will come back within the next five years. If he lives another ten years then he's taught his audience worldwide Jesus is coming within the next ten years. Now if Mr. Jeremiah dies and Jesus has not returned as Mr. Jeremiah teaches then in that instant of his final breath he will have proven a false teacher, but since he's dead there will be no means for the church to hold him accountable (not that Dispensationalists ever hold their false teachers accountable for their falsehoods). Hal Lindsey has said the same thing. He is 90 years old. What's the likelihood Lindsey will live another five, ten, fifteen, or twenty years? You, on the other hand, might still be alive, drawing breath and pumping blood in ten years. Will you be accountable for this op if and when it proves false in ten years?

Tell us now so we know what kind of Christian you are.





I covered Rev 12 and 13 in cursory manner and that content is sitting silently in the op ignored. You are copying and pasting scripture together without warrant and you are not providing any rationale for doing so. You are regurgitating things you learned from others you do not name. When asked about these things you prove incapable of providing such explanations. When confronted with conflicts within your own position, like Nero being the sixth king making Revelation early-date and you're unawareness your own position has preterist parts you deny it. You are on record doing so.




Yep. Preterists believe the majority of prophesy has been fulfilled. You believe every prophesy related to and preceding Nero has been fulfilled. That is the logically necessary conclusion to what you have here asserted.

You can call yourself a futurist, and you are definitely a futurist, but you're an inconsistent futurist and as far as I can tell you do not critique your sources or your own position very well.


Revelation was written before Nero died.
Revelation was written by a first century regenerate believer with first century intent and application.
Revelation was written so first century Christians understood it and applied it.

There is nothing in the text of Revelation that says any of it is being fulfilled in the 21st century.

And in ten years you're culpable for all this.

The topic of the thread is not me.

 

[summerville]

I got the message. Your belief is ten years away. What will you do when nothing predicted happens by then? Will you listen to the false teachers as they "recalculate"? Will you note none of them acknowledge their teachings were false, making them false teachers?

Will you take responsibility and accept culpability and accountability for have spent so much time and so much cyberspace arguing with Christian brothers and sisters over what will by then have proven to be false information? Will you be accountable for this op? If I'm still alive and ask you about you errors and false teachings and lack of accountability will I read repentance or rebellion?

You're not alone in this, Douggg. David Jeremiah has said he believes Jesus is coming back within his lifetime. David Jeremiah is 79 years old. If he lives five more years then he has predicted Jesus will come back within the next five years. If he lives another ten years then he's taught his audience worldwide Jesus is coming within the next ten years. Now if Mr. Jeremiah dies and Jesus has not returned as Mr. Jeremiah teaches then in that instant of his final breath he will have proven a false teacher, but since he's dead there will be no means for the church to hold him accountable (not that Dispensationalists ever hold their false teachers accountable for their falsehoods).

Hal Lindsey has said the same thing. He is 90 years old. What's the likelihood Lindsey will live another five, ten, fifteen, or twenty years? You, on the other hand, might still be alive, drawing breath and pumping blood in ten years. Will you be accountable for this op if and when it proves false in ten years?

Tell us now so we know what kind of Christian you are.





I covered Rev 12 and 13 in cursory manner and that content is sitting silently in the op ignored. You are copying and pasting scripture together without warrant and you are not providing any rationale for doing so. You are regurgitating things you learned from others you do not name. When asked about these things you prove incapable of providing such explanations.

When confronted with conflicts within your own position, like Nero being the sixth king making Revelation early-date and you're unawareness your own position has preterist parts you deny it. You are on record doing so.

Yep. Preterists believe the majority of prophesy has been fulfilled. You believe every prophesy related to and preceding Nero has been fulfilled. That is the logically necessary conclusion to what you have here asserted.

You can call yourself a futurist, and you are definitely a futurist, but you're an inconsistent futurist and as far as I can tell you do not critique your sources or your own position very well.


Revelation was written before Nero died.
Revelation was written by a first century regenerate believer with first century intent and application.
Revelation was written so first century Christians understood it and applied it.

There is nothing in the text of Revelation that says any of it is being fulfilled in the 21st century.

And in ten years you're culpable for all this.

Probably not. Nero died in 68 AD and that would be early and long before even the most extreme scholars think John of Patmos wrote Revelation.

What is known is that people were terrified of Nero and feared he might return from the dead and lead an invading army of Parthians across the Euphrates to reinstitute the persecutions.. That superstition continued until the 5th century. Furthermore, there were Jews and new Christians who thought Nero would return as another Roman Emperor like Domitian.