The semantics of the Trinity

Alan Asquith

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I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one God. So I am puzzled why the New Testament sometimes uses the word God to refer exclusively to the Father. For example, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul wrote: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Another example is John 17:3 where Jesus prayed: This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

According to the rules of English grammar, it tends to imply that Jesus and the Spirit are not God. I am genuinely puzzled and would appreciate some light on this please. Thank you.
 
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HTacianas

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I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one God. So I am puzzled why the New Testament sometimes uses the word God to refer exclusively to the Father. For example, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul wrote: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Another example is John 17:3 where Jesus prayed: This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

According to the rules of English grammar, it tends to imply that Jesus and the Spirit are not God. I am genuinely puzzled and would appreciate some light on this please. Thank you.

They are used interchangeably. The three are also used together so as to communicate the concept of the Trinity, even though that concept was not referred to as the Trinity in those times.
 
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Call me Nic

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I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one God. So I am puzzled why the New Testament sometimes uses the word God to refer exclusively to the Father. For example, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul wrote: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Another example is John 17:3 where Jesus prayed: This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

According to the rules of English grammar, it tends to imply that Jesus and the Spirit are not God. I am genuinely puzzled and would appreciate some light on this please. Thank you.
While there is a distinction within the Godhead of the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, the three are at the same time one.

They each bear record of God. Jesus bears record of the Father, and the Father bore record of Jesus through the works that Jesus did in his name. The Spirit bears record of both.

Though they bear separate records, their testimony is still one regarding the same truth, and they are three that are one.

The law of Moses states that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a matter be established. The testimony of men is good, but the testimony of God is greater; if God bears witness of himself three times over, then the truth of the matter of redemption toward creation is established both in heavens and the earth for those that are saved, and they that are judged.

The Bible cannot contradict itself when it says that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), that the eternal Word that proceeds from the Father became man (John 1:1, John 1:14), and that Jesus Christ is the preeminent Creator of everything (Colossians 1:15-18).
 
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Dave-W

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According to the rules of English grammar, i
Paul did not write in, nor did anyone in his audience speak or read in English. That language would not even exist for more than 1000 years. So "English grammar" is a non issue. Totally irrelevant.

You need to understand the word usage Our Lord was using (in Aramaic) and what Paul used (in Koine Greek).
 
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Alan Asquith

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They are used interchangeably.
Yes, I can see that. But my question is why are the persons of the Trinity referred to in this way? It seems misleading when God intended to lead his church into the formal definition of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Why didn't Paul ever refer to Jesus or the Spirit as 'God' when he referred to all 3 members of the Trinity in the same breath?
 
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Call me Nic

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Yes, I can see that. But my question is why are the persons of the Trinity referred to in this way? It seems misleading when God intended to lead his church into the formal definition of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Why didn't Paul ever refer to Jesus or the Spirit as 'God' when he referred to all 3 members of the Trinity in the same breath?
Paul oftentimes says "God our Saviour." We know that Jesus is our Saviour, so he was referring to Christ specifically when he said that.
 
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HTacianas

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Yes, I can see that. But my question is why are the persons of the Trinity referred to in this way? It seems misleading when God intended to lead his church into the formal definition of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Why didn't Paul ever refer to Jesus or the Spirit as 'God' when he referred to all 3 members of the Trinity in the same breath?

I don't know that Paul or any of the other apostles saw it as all that important. It was only later in Church history, mostly to safeguard against heresy, that the nature of the Trinity was clearly defined.
 
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Alan Asquith

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You need to understand the word usage Our Lord was using (in Aramaic) and what Paul used (in Koine Greek).
Thank you. But can you enlighten me on the structure of Koine and Aramaic in the above two verses that would help me understand them please? I only speak English. How would an Aramaic/Greek listener have interpreted those words? Can you give me a paraphrase of those verses as they would sound to the ears of a contemporaneous audience? That would be very helpful.
 
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Dave-W

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Thank you. But can you enlighten me on the structure of Koine and Aramaic in the above two verses that would help me understand them please? I only speak English. How would an Aramaic/Greek listener have interpreted those words? Can you give me a paraphrase of those verses as they would sound to the ears of a contemporaneous audience? That would be very helpful.
While I would love to be able to do that, it is something that actually takes a long time of study. Months if not years.

Sorry, but that kind of in depth study is beyond what can be done in a forum like this.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one God. So I am puzzled why the New Testament sometimes uses the word God to refer exclusively to the Father. For example, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul wrote: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Another example is John 17:3 where Jesus prayed: This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

According to the rules of English grammar, it tends to imply that Jesus and the Spirit are not God. I am genuinely puzzled and would appreciate some light on this please. Thank you.

Isn't that interesting? And, you know the concept of the Trinity came about in the 4th century After the Death of Christ, due to the Arian Controversy and because of a man named Athanasius, right?

Another section that should send you back to God the Father could be John 15 where Jesus is talking about Himself remaining in the Father's love. Or, the passage in 1 Cor 15:23-28 where Paul shares what is going to happen in the end.
 
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Alan Asquith

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Paul oftentimes says "God our Saviour." We know that Jesus is our Saviour, so he was referring to Christ specifically when he said that.
Thank you Nicolaus. Yes, there are two places where it is almost certain the NT writers used the word 'God' to refer to Jesus: Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. (There may be other places but the others are more tentative because of variant manuscripts or grammatical imprecision.) However, my original question is why the 1st and 2nd persons of the Trinity are usually referred to in conjunction as 'God' and 'Christ' where the word God is only used for the Father specifically.
 
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Alan Asquith

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While I would love to be able to do that, it is something that actually takes a long time of study. Months if not years.
Sorry, but that kind of in depth study is beyond what can be done in a forum like this.
OK, thanks anyway. You sounded as if you had already studied it and knew the answer, so I was hoping you could translate the Aramaic/Koine idiom for me.

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you were alluding to, but here is something I found in an old article on the Trinity which may be to the point:

The NT writers were not imbued with Aristotelian philosophy and didn't analyse things in terms of substance or ontology. Instead they thought about things in terms of function - for example, they thought of God as creator, sustainer, ruler, judge, etc. but didn't speculate about his abstract qualities such as the inner structure of his being or personality. Thus if one of the NT writers had been asked "Is Jesus God?", he probably would not have understood the question. To his mind it would have sounded as bizarre as it would do to a modern western person being asked "What does the colour red smell like?" This explains why the NT never attempted to define God in the same terms as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Definition. The NT authors simply never asked themselves the sorts of questions the Nicene Creed attempted to answer. The theologians who formulated the Nicene Creed were deeply influenced by Aristotelian philosophy and so their minds naturally probed into the ontological relationship between the Father and Jesus, whereas the NT writers thought more about the functional relationship between the Father and Jesus (Sender/'Sent One', Commissioner/Messiah, Father/Son, etc.) The 4th century theologians who formulated the doctrine of the trinity made accurate inferences from the biblical data, but their definition of the trinity is only one lens through which God may be viewed, while non-Greek theologians with a different mindset may look at God through a different lens that is equally valid.
 
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Dave-W

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OK - that is starting you in the right direction. But I am not sure an analysis of God via Aristotelian methods is all that valid in the first place. And that is EXACTLY what the Creeds try to do.

Rabbi Jonathan Sachs (former chief rabbi of the UK) contrasts the Hebrew approach (which is the approach of the bible - both testaments) and the Greek approach. He attributes it to the differences in language structure.

 
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grasping the after wind

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I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one God. So I am puzzled why the New Testament sometimes uses the word God to refer exclusively to the Father. For example, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul wrote: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Another example is John 17:3 where Jesus prayed: This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

According to the rules of English grammar, it tends to imply that Jesus and the Spirit are not God. I am genuinely puzzled and would appreciate some light on this please. Thank you.

The reality of the Triune God's relationship to Himself is so unlike anything we are capable of understanding with our limited unitary minds that every explanation given just seems a completely pitiful attempt. Paul and John had as much trouble with it as the rest of us.
 
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shadowhunter

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Much has been written about the Trinity, mostly from a Greek point of view. I will add some observations from a Hebrew point of view:

You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand Isaiah 64:8

Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Malachi 2:10

"...father of the fatherless, a defender of widows." Psalms 68:5

1 Chronicles 29:10; Isaiah 63:16; Jeremiah 3:19; Exodus 4:22, Deuteronomy 14:1; 32:5-6; Isaiah 1:2; Hosea 1:10; 11:1

The word Father 'ab' אב has gematria of 3. Even modern rabbis say that God has a triune nature, but they consider 3 primary attributes rather than three persons.

John understood the trinity better than most.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Hebrew word for 'heaven' is 'shamayim' שמים . The word has two 'mems' or Hebrew m's. The mem is drawn differently when it is at the end of a word. The First mem has a metaphor for the Father in it, and the second has one for the Son/Word. The ש on the front represents the Holy Spirit. These three testify in heaven. Also shamyim has gematria of 3.

The Hebrew word for earth 'erets' ארץ also has gematria of 3. Similarly the letters represent the Spirit א , the water (revelation), and the blood ץ, signifying that Christ in the flesh was the fullness of deity on earth.

Jesus uses the metaphor of the mem's. He told the woman at the well that though she worshiped on the mountain, she would worship in Spirit and Truth. The mayim in 'heaven' means waters. She would move the mountain to the waters (The Father is Spirit, the Son is Truth). When he spoke of the mustard seed... If you have faith... you will move the mountain to the waters (sea).
 
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Mathetes66

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While it is good to ask questions to further understand the Scriptures, it is not good to 'question' the Scriptures. The more I read your posts, the more you appear to listen to the speculative & presumptions of others rather than the Scriptures & use the 'skeptical language' of unbelievers. You appear not to harmonize the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE & what it says concerning the Trinity, both OT & NT & isolate verses.

Your first question is EXTREMELY LIMITED to just 2 Bible passages & your whole premise appears to be based on QUESTIONING the Word of God versus believing it & simply doing correlative Bible study on harmonizing the whole of Scripture on its revelation concerning the Triune nature of the one true God in Scripture.

As another poster stated, this often involves much study of Scripture; in other words, do your homework!

The dynamics of the Trinity as revealed in Scripture involve a number of things for one. The Father is God invisible; the Son is both God & man visible & thus is approached on the basis of both being true at the same time.

Secondly, the nature of the Father/Son relationship is another issue of why the Scripture says what it says at different times.

Third, the Son honors the Father. Yet the Son is to be honored just as the Father is honored. (John 5:23) Yet the Son received His teaching from the Father WHILE A MAN ON THE EARTH. Yet to have seen the visible Son working is to have seen the invisible Father working as well AT THE SAME TIME. (John 5:17).

Aramaic Bible in Plain English But Yeshua himself said to them: “My Father is working until this hour AND I am ALSO working.”

Fourth, the Holy Spirit, though God, honors the Son, taking from the Son what He is to lead & guide us into--all the truth. (John 14 & John 16). Yet in Acts 5, to lie to God is synonymous to lying to the Holy Spirit.

The Son glorifies the Father, the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, the Father glorifies the Son, etc. depending on what passages you are reading at the time.

You must also consider the distinct roles & ministries each Person of the Trinity fulfilled, though unified in these, that often leads to the descriptions we find in Scripture concerning them as such.

One such example is that God is a Comforter or Paraclete or Counselor, however that Greek word is translated. All three members are called Comforter. (see if you can find the verses).

Thomas referred to Jesus, speaking directly to Him, as 'the Lord of me' & 'the God of me' & he wasn't referring to the Father when he made his confession directly to Jesus.

John 1:1 refers to Jesus as the Word being WITH GOD yet also the Word being God in the same sentence.

You reference John 17:3 as referring to the Father as the only true God, yet ignore the first part of the verse as to how Jesus defines what eternal life is: knowing both the Father AND the Son. Then you seem ignorant of what John also says in I John 5:20

Aramaic Bible in Plain English "And we know that The Son of God has come & he has given us a mind to know The True One and to be in The True One--IN HIS SON, Yeshua The Messiah. This One {refers back to the Son} is The True God & The Life Eternal."

So not only is the Father called the only true God but the Son is also called the only true God or true One & also is the eternal life. This is further confirmed in I John 1:2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"And The Life was revealed and we perceived and we testify and we proclaim to you the Life Eternal, that which was with The Father and was revealed to us."

Another issue is that Jesus Christ came to earth as the Word made flesh, God manifested in the flesh yet as a man OF NO REPUTATION (Phil 2:6-8), FROM AN UNKNOWN FAMILY & FROM AN UNKNOWN CITY (John 1:46) where He grew up. He came into the world, made the world & yet He wasn't recognized. When He presented Himself as Deity & the Promised Messiah, the Prophet & Priest Moses talked about & King from David's line to His own Jewish people, they received Him not but rejected Him & called for His crucifixion.

His physical appearance was one such that we wouldn't notice Him or pay attention to Him--He wasn't outwardly handsome or attractive or someone to be desired or majestic. (Isaiah 52 & 53) Those Divine attributes were veiled due to the voluntary limitations of being a man in a body of flesh & blood. He did not ever cease to be God but yet being a man had natural limitations He voluntarily accepted during His time on the earth.

So, rather than doubt or question the Word of God based on only two verses--

or question it based on someone's speculation that the NT writers depended on 'Aristotelian philosophy' RATHER THAN THE THE DIRECT LEADING & REVELATION FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT--

or quote skeptics language such as 'there may be other places but the others are more tentative because of variant manuscripts or grammatical imprecision' which is based on vague presumptions & unbelief--

rather than believing the WHOLE of what Scripture teaches & what the Christians have believed & taught since the first century onward, 'the faith once for all delivered to the saints.'

Present yourself TO GOD as one accurately handling the Word of Truth--the whole harmonization of the Scriptures concerning this wonderful teaching concerning the Triune nature of the one true living God.

These are just a FEW things to consider--before a more in-depth study of the various harmonious verses on the Trinity are shown, including all those that reference all 3 Persons of the Triune God throughout Scripture.
I hope that this is helpful & informative.
 
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Paul oftentimes says "God our Saviour." We know that Jesus is our Saviour, so he was referring to Christ specifically when he said that.

That's incorrect.

1Ti_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

God our saviour is used for God the Father by Paul.
 
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Call me Nic

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That's incorrect.

1Ti_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

God our saviour is used for God the Father by Paul.
Then why does Paul say thus in Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ?" Our God and Saviour is Jesus Christ, who is the Lord.
 
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ewq1938

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Then why does Paul say thus in Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ?" Our God and Saviour is Jesus Christ, who is the Lord.

All that is important is that Paul does use "God our saviour" as a reference to the Father at least once so it is not exclusively used of Christ as claimed.
 
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shadowhunter

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That's incorrect.

1Ti_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

God our saviour is used for God the Father by Paul.

How did you determine that this is not two titles for Christ in this instance?

There is no punctuation in Greek, so this text might be:
Paul, an apostle
.................\of Jesus Christ
by the commandment
...................\of
........................God
............................\our savior and Lord
........................................\Jesus Christ

It is more likely that Paul uses the phrase consistently, than mixing it up between Father and Son.

Is there evidence that God the Father commanded Paul to be an apostle, or only that Christ did?

Greek words are much more precise than Hebrew, but the lack of punctuation leaves much ambiguity.
 
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