The seemingly "discrepencies" between the apostles James and Paul.

[Neostarwcc]

I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God. Because Faith is what saves not works.

Of course. This makes James sound like a liar because he seemingly says that a workless faith will not save.


But wait. How can that be true? How can a Christian "have" to do works but yet at the same time is saved whether or not he does works. This has puzzled theologians for thousands of years. But my thought I just had is, what if they're both right.

A workless faith seems to be a "dead" faith in Gods eyes and God rebukes and chastises them for their lack of obedience on Judgement day. A fate I personally would not want to suffer. I want to be praised by God not have him discipline me lovingly with a rod of iron and have Christ say "you wicked and lazy servant". Yet just like Paul says they're STILL saved. They just will enter heaven without rewards while the obedient Christian's will be richly rewarded and praised for their service.

After all. Both statements are spoken by the Holy Spirit so both statements HAVE to be true so what if I "cracked the code" so to speak. After all James and Paul were friends and fellow apostles together. So they must have agreed on doctrine. So there should be no contradiction here. Those who have a workless faith DO enter heaven.

But that does raise a question if we accept this as fact. Just what is saving faith then? Paul answers this question throughout his letters. Salvation is by faith. In other words faith in the gospel. In other words, relying on it, believing that it's TRUE, and having full confidence that you have a heavenly home in Jesus.

But what then about the apotosates? I... honestly dont know. And what about Christs parable about wordless Faith's? I dont know. I just know the whole bible has to fit together. Either Paul was a heretic who shouldn't be listened to or we REALLY ARE saved when we have a workless faith. Because Paul didnt just say it once. He said it throughout his letters. Paul's message of what a "saving" faith was believing the gospel. That is quite clear.

 

[HTacianas]

I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God. Because Faith is what saves not works.

Of course. This makes James sound like a liar because he seemingly says that a workless faith will not save.


But wait. How can that be true? How can a Christian "have" to do works but yet at the same time is saved whether or not he does works. This has puzzled theologians for thousands of years. But my thought I just had is, what if they're both right.

A workless faith seems to be a "dead" faith in Gods eyes and God rebukes and chastises them for their lack of obedience on Judgement day. A fate I personally would not want to suffer. I want to be praised by God not have him discipline me lovingly with a rod of iron and have Christ say "you wicked and lazy servant". Yet just like Paul says they're STILL saved. They just will enter heaven without rewards while the obedient Christian's will be richly rewarded and praised for their service.

After all. Both statements are spoken by the Holy Spirit so both statements HAVE to be true so what if I "cracked the code" so to speak. After all James and Paul were friends and fellow apostles together. So they must have agreed on doctrine. So there should be no contradiction here. Those who have a workless faith DO enter heaven.

But that does raise a question if we accept this as fact. Just what is saving faith then? Paul answers this question throughout his letters. Salvation is by faith. In other words faith in the gospel. In other words, relying on it, believing that it's TRUE, and having full confidence that you have a heavenly home in Jesus.

But what then about the apotosates? I... honestly dont know. And what about Christs parable about wordless Faith's? I dont know. I just know the whole bible has to fit together. Either Paul was a heretic who shouldn't be listened to or we REALLY ARE saved when we have a workless faith. Because Paul didnt just say it once. He said it throughout his letters. Paul's message of what a "saving" faith was believing the gospel. That is quite clear.

Paul did not say that.

 

[Albion]

But wait. How can that be true? How can a Christian "have" to do works but yet at the same time is saved whether or not he does works. This has puzzled theologians for thousands of years. But my thought I just had is, what if they're both right.

They ARE both right, and only SOME theologians have been puzzled.

Paul is a famous defender of Salvation by Faith. So also does James believe it...but he takes the matter one step further and chastises people who claim saving Faith but do not live it. They do not produce works, which every true Faith produces. Their so-called "Faith" is therefore bogus. Being bogus--or dead--it cannot save.

There is no contradiction between the teachings of the two Apostles, even though all sorts of today's Christians think there is--mainly because they've misunderstood the Epistle of James.

 

[FenderTL5]

They ARE both right, and only SOME theologians have been puzzled.

Paul is a famous defender of Salvation by Faith. So also does James believe it...but he takes the matter one step further and chastises people who claim saving Faith but do not live it. They do not produce works, which every true Faith produces. Their so-called "Faith" is therefore bogus. Being bogus--or dead--it cannot save.

There is no contradiction between the teachings of the two Apostles, even though all sorts of today's Christians think there is--mainly because they've misunderstood the Epistle of James.

Agree and they have misunderstood and/or exaggerated the writings of Paul.

 

[FenderTL5]

Paul did not say that.

you are correct.

 

[Neostarwcc]

They ARE both right, and only SOME theologians have been puzzled.

Paul is a famous defender of Salvation by Faith. So also does James believe it...but he takes the matter one step further and chastises people who claim saving Faith but do not live it. They do not produce works, which every true Faith produces. Their so-called "Faith" is therefore bogus. Being bogus--or dead--it cannot save.

There is no contradiction between the teachings of the two Apostles, even though all sorts of today's Christians think there is--mainly because they've misunderstood the Epistle of James.

Something interesting the writer of Hebrews said about faith too is in Hebrews 11. He (or she but let's face it a man. Probably wrote Hebrews) notice how the writer of hebrews doesnt talk about works being a part of faith either. While granted every example he gave of a person who had faith did some wonderful works for God he never says a workless faith never saves. Instead he says "faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen".

Just kind of interesting because for years I agreed with that theology (that a workless faith is a dead faith and they're not saved.) But something is making me wonder if th he workless Christian's that we see walking around we will actually be with and see in heaven one day."

 

[Neostarwcc]

Agree and they have misunderstood and/or exaggerated the writings of Paul.

How can you misunderstand of exaggerate direct statements of Paul though? Read Romans 4:5 for example. Sounds pretty clear cut to me. There's no way to "exaggerate" that.

 

[A_Thinker]

I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God. Because Faith is what saves not works.

Of course. This makes James sound like a liar because he seemingly says that a workless faith will not save.


But wait. How can that be true? How can a Christian "have" to do works but yet at the same time is saved whether or not he does works. This has puzzled theologians for thousands of years. But my thought I just had is, what if they're both right.

A workless faith seems to be a "dead" faith in Gods eyes and God rebukes and chastises them for their lack of obedience on Judgement day. A fate I personally would not want to suffer. I want to be praised by God not have him discipline me lovingly with a rod of iron and have Christ say "you wicked and lazy servant". Yet just like Paul says they're STILL saved. They just will enter heaven without rewards while the obedient Christian's will be richly rewarded and praised for their service.

After all. Both statements are spoken by the Holy Spirit so both statements HAVE to be true so what if I "cracked the code" so to speak. After all James and Paul were friends and fellow apostles together. So they must have agreed on doctrine. So there should be no contradiction here. Those who have a workless faith DO enter heaven.

But that does raise a question if we accept this as fact. Just what is saving faith then? Paul answers this question throughout his letters. Salvation is by faith. In other words faith in the gospel. In other words, relying on it, believing that it's TRUE, and having full confidence that you have a heavenly home in Jesus.

But what then about the apotosates? I... honestly dont know. And what about Christs parable about wordless Faith's? I dont know. I just know the whole bible has to fit together. Either Paul was a heretic who shouldn't be listened to or we REALLY ARE saved when we have a workless faith. Because Paul didnt just say it once. He said it throughout his letters. Paul's message of what a "saving" faith was believing the gospel. That is quite clear.

There's no such thing as a "workless" faith.

There are always changes in the lives of the saved ...

Luke 23

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[Barney2.0]

If people just read where Paul says ”works of the law,” then the whole problem goes away. Paul and James aren’t talking about the same thing. James refers to good works that are necessary to complete a Christian’s faith as you’d see in James 1:27. Paul himself commanded these works to be done as we see in Romans 12:15-16. James no where says in his letter that obedience to the works of the law are needed for our salvation. The two Apostles, James and Paul are in complete agreement, especially if we read Acts we’d see James and the rest of the Church vote in favor of Paul against the Judaizers who favored obedience to the works of the law as a way to attain salvation. This was rejected at the Council of Jerusalem at which James presided over and we see this same agreement of teachings in the letters of Paul and the letter of James. The only way for there to be a contradiction is if you misinterpret Paul and pit him against James which is what ultimately gave birth to Sola Fide as a result of a single man trying to interpret the scriptures on his own. The Church and Christianity as a whole historically never saw any contradiction or problem here until you get to the “reformation” in the 1500s, Otherwise there’s no issue here.

 

[timewerx]

I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God. Because Faith is what saves not works.

Apostle Paul worked with cultural context in order to win Gentiles in their time and place and their many different cultures.

Paul even mentioned it in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

It is a major problem in Christianity today, having the doctines based upon Paul's epistles while completely ignorant of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

Wonder why we have so many denominations (divisions) in our religion today.

Truth is that Paul's teachings which were adapted for the many different cultures at a different time so different from our own culture, they hardly apply to us anymore.

When in doubt, always refer back to the Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (and also the epistles of John).

The books of Peter, etc, were also written in a context similar to Paul's and still not as good as the Gospels.

 

[SeaCrystalFish]

Paul did not say that.

He implied it.

 

[HTacianas]

He

He implied it.

He didn't even imply it.

 

[A_Thinker]

I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God.

If you think about it, this is quite impossible.

The believer, at the very least, changes his/her position towards God, ... and will, likely, make some presentation of his/her new faith to others ...

 

[SeaCrystalFish]

So which one is correct? Faith and work or faith only?

 

[SeaCrystalFish]

Apostle Paul worked with cultural context in order to win Gentiles in their time and place and their many different cultures.

Paul even mentioned it in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

It is a major problem in Christianity today, having the doctines based upon Paul's epistles while completely ignorant of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

Wonder why we have so many denominations (divisions) in our religion today.

Truth is that Paul's teachings which were adapted for the many different cultures at a different time so different from our own culture, they hardly apply to us anymore.

When in doubt, always refer back to the Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (and also the epistles of John).

The books of Peter, etc, were also written in a context similar to Paul's and still not as good as the Gospels.

I see, then it's faith and work?

 

[SeaCrystalFish]

If people just read where Paul says ”works of the law,” then the whole problem goes away. Paul and James aren’t talking about the same thing. James refers to good works that are necessary to complete a Christians faith as you’d see in James 1:27. Paul himself commanded these works to be done as we see in Romans 12:15-16. James no where says in his letter that obedience to the works of the law are needed for our salvation. The two Apostles, James and Paul are in complete agreement especially if we read Acts we’d see James the rest of the Church vote in favor of Paul against the Judaizers who favored obedience to the works of the law as a way to attain salvation. This was rejected at the Council of Jerusalem at which James presided over and we see this same agreement of teachings in the letters of Paul and the letter of James. The only way for there to be a contradiction is if you misinterpret Paul and pit him against James which is what ultimately gave birth to Sola Fide as a result of a single man trying to interpret the scriptures on his own. The Church and Christianity as a whole historically never saw any contradiction or problem here until you get the “reformation” in the 1500s, Otherwise there’s no issue here.

Please correct me if I am wrong. So faith is needed to attain salvation, not good work. But in order to maintain salvation, you must do good work, is that it?

 

[A_Thinker]

So which one is correct? Faith and work or faith only?

There is no such thing as faith only.

True faith bears fruit (works).

 

[timewerx]

I see, then it's faith and work?

When in doubt over scriptures of the apostles, always go back to the Gospels.

Hint:

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[Barney2.0]

Please correct me if I am wrong. So faith is needed to attain salvation, not good work. But in order to maintain salvation, you must do good work, is that it?

You need both, you can’t have one without the other.

 

[Amittai]

Jesus talks about fruit being looked for. Who ended up where gnashing & wailing are?

Paul distinguished between how far prior works not in Holy Spirit power, and subsequent works in Holy Spirit power, cut it. This is the identical distinction James makes, including metaphorically.

To protect the widows and orphans and not stint the rations of our brother, is to pray that they will reach their own maturity to face adversity and to mentor them in so doing.

To mentor someone in shallow triumphalism is to rob and starve them.