The second beast, the image of the first, and the mark.

ewq1938

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Exactly. Which means the mark of the beast has also been around since Adam and Eve.

No, the mark does not exist until the second beast of Rev/the false prophet issues it to people.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This mark cannot exist prior to these verses.
 
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ewq1938

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See, this is where your line of thinking totally falls apart. Your line of thinking would require that there are two ways to be damned. One, reject Christ or two, take the mark.

Don't forget the unforgivable sin...blasphemy of the Holy spirit.
 
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seventysevens

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Exactly. Which means the mark of the beast has also been around since Adam and Eve.

That could be symbolic for something. I don't know what.

It doesn't say that.

See, this is where your line of thinking totally falls apart. Your line of thinking would require that there are two ways to be damned. One, reject Christ or two, take the mark.

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense if they were both the same thing? In other words, if rejecting Christ = taking the mark? Or put yet another way, "taking the mark" is merely poetic language to describe people who've rejected Christ.
READ CHAPTER 13 RIGHT HAND or FOREHEAD , maybe you don't have these but that is what scripture says
NO you don't Get It
Chapter 14 says if anyone accepts the mark they will go to the lake of fire period
If a person rejects Christ they will take the mark and be damned
If a person rejects the mark they will be killed as a martyr Rev2 0
If a person rejects Christ for ANY reason they are damned as per scripture , have you read any of it - how is it you don't know this ?
Since the scripture BOLDLY says the AC will cause people to take the mark as in forcing it because the AC is demanding to be worshiped as God -you either accept it or die
NO man can buy or sell without the mark - so it is a REAL mark on either the RIGHT HAND or Forehead , to say it is just symbolic or figurative makes no sense at all , imagine trying to get a car loan and tell the bank you have an ID card but not on you - they will say -when you bring one in only then you can continue with the process , until then it is stopped
 
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TribulationSigns

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No, the mark does not exist until the second beast of Rev/the false prophet issues it to people.

That is not correct which is why you have not compared Scripture with Scripture.

Rev 20:4
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

From God's Word, it is clear that the beast was already present at the time of this writing, and those martyrs risen in Christ had already gotten the victory over him and were raised up to reign with Christ.

God says very plainly that when Satan is bound (Revelation 20) that the souls of the martyrs were at that time living and reigning with Him in heaven. Read the Scripture carefully, these were those:

"which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Meaning clearly that the beast was already around in those days, and already marking people in their hands and foreheads. So the idea that this beast only exists sometime in the latter times is untenable, if Scripture is our authority. From this verse, we see that the Beast was already around, already around even then and already marking souls. The ones who weren't marked, live forever and were in heaven living and reigning with Christ, while the rest of those who had died were not raised up to do so. They didn't go to live and reign with Christ, but the Martyrs did. That's 100% consistent with what I said earlier on other thread about the beast with "7 heads" representing the authority of His kingdom throughout time, the number 7 illustrating its completeness. Consider carefully what God says in Revelation chapter 17 also:

Revelation 17:10-12
  • "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
  • And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
  • And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."
God speaks of 7 kings or reigns, five being fallen, one was (at the time), and one kingdom was yet to come (future). 7=complete rule of this kingdom, the 7th the final chapter (so to speak). Moreover, Note what it says about the beast--that he is the eighth and is of the seven!!! In other words, his reign is part of the 7, not one apart from it. And the final clue, the 10 horns were kingdoms not realized as yet (at the time John penned this), but who would reign one hour with this beast. So I'd say it's pretty conclusive that the beast was before John, was around at the time of John (but restrained), and would come again (when Satan was loosed). It's clearly prove you wrong that a beast that doesn't exist until the latter times.

My point is... the symbolism of the mark fo the beast, meaning those owned by Satan, is NOT "tribulation period" specific, as you think!

The "symbolism" of the beast's mark is NOT limited to a certain time of the end, for Satan has marked men for thousands of years as LastSeven suggested. Look at Judas, for example, we can say he indeed had the mark of the beast. The moment Satan entered into him to betray Christ, he was (spiritually speaking) marked or branded of the beast. He was of the household of saints and was deceived just as those of the household of saints will be deceived during the end times. This is also illustrated in the souls during the millennial reign of Christ, (church age). For example, they are those who have not received the mark, obviously meaning others have, and this is long before the loosing of Satan! It's the entire new Covenant period millennial reign where people are marked!

Selah!
 
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TribulationSigns

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READ CHAPTER 13 RIGHT HAND or FOREHEAD , maybe you don't have these but that is what scripture says

The mark of the beast is NOT A PHYSICAL or VISIBLE MARK!

NO you don't Get It

It is YOU who do not get it.

Chapter 14 says if anyone accepts the mark they will go to the lake of fire period

Of course. It does not means that anyone to show their physical mark on the right hand or forehead to God the Judgment Day in order to go to Lake of Fire. God sees something else that you do not see!

Allow me to explain a bit on this.

The hand in Scripture is often used as an illustration of the WILL OF MAN. Because the hand is used by man to do his bidding. Specifically, the right hand, is the main hand. It is well known that the majority of people are right handed, meaning, the right hand is the prominent hand. For example, it is the stronger hand, or the hand of power. In the Old Testment, when a father's will was that his son be blessd, he would signify this by laying his "right hand" upon him. Or when Jesus ascended to the throne of God, He was seated at the "right hand" of God. In these illustrations of the right hand, God is giving us a spiritual image of the will. Get it? It is like if I were to say to you as my friend, you are my "right hand" man. You would understand what I mean. It is an illustration of being able to depend on you because you works like my own right hand, or you will do "my will" as if by my own right hand. That is the significance of the hand in this imagery. The right hand is an idiom for "will and power."

Therefore, when we read Satan's mark is on their right hand, it signifies Satan uses this deceived man as his "main hand" or as his power to get his will done on earth. Satan will NOT pop up as a red horned devil with a pitchfork, instead, he manifests himself through men, women, and children, who receives his mark on his right hand. This is how Satan uses false prophets and christs to do his bidding in church to attack the True Christians and to the professed christians.

So you see, one will not be able to sell or buy Satan's doctrines unless he first receive the mark on the right hand or on the forehead (more on that later). For example, the false prophets and christs are willing to speak false doctrines on behalf of Satan to deceive many and to force as many as they can to receive the mark of the beast. This is what God talked about the second beast with two horns like a lamb (Christ-like) but spoke like a dragon. IT is their false gospel and doctrines are what gives away.

The True Christians, on other hands, know the false gospel and doctrines when they heard it, this is how they have refused to receive the mark of the beast, so they got killed by the beast. They could be physically killed like we read about them in history books, or they will have their testimony spiritually silenced in the church where there are apostasy and desolation.

Now, as for the forehead, it is where the mind is, and is illustrative of man's thinking. For example, with Christians, they have the name of God written in their foreheads which means it is revealed their minds are sealed in Christ Jesus so that their thoughts become one with His. Believers all have one mind as they are all sealed or secured of the Spirit in Christ, Romans 15:6, 1st Corinthians 2:16. Believers who have thename of God written in their foreheads are illustrative of a people who are of one SPirit where God is guiding them in their will and in their thinking. It is the fulfilling of Old Covenant Prophecy.

Hebrews 10:16
[16] This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will write My law into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."

The question is, did God literally written Scripture on someone's heart or that He has literally carved laws on our foreheads or in our minds to show the world that we are Christ's? Of course not. Same thing with Satan's mark of the beast.

By the same token, those who are DECEIVED by the spirit of Satan also have the same mind. But instead of the mind of lawfulness like the believers, they have the mind of lawlessness. Their desire is not to do the will of God, but to be DISOBEDIENT and do the will of their spiritual father, the Devil.

Ephesians 2:2-3
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Didn't you read in Scripture where Jesus warned the Scribes and Pharisees that their mind was defiled because they were of their father, the Devil. Why? Because the mind of the people of Israel was given over to that prince or ruler, Satan. Spiritually speaking, he had become their king and held them in spiritual bondage. In this same fashion, when the church falls into apostasy as illustrated in Revelation chapter 13, the professed christians also will be brought into bondage by Satan. How? They will love their false prophets and christs who have declared that homosexuality is not a sin, or that we should not judge people, or say that God wants us to live propersity, or say that women can be a pastor, or say that divorce and remarriage is okay, etc. etc. They can't buy or even sell their lies unless they first receive the mark of the beast! In other words, they are required to agree or to have one mind with the beast, in order to sell false doctrine to others.

Therefore, the spiritual mark of the beast is much more dangerous than your RFID chips or even iphones. Really!

Think about it.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Oh and one more important thing...

And in this same cryptic fashion I explained earlier, Revelation 17:5 talks about the Harlot with a name written on her forehead saying "Mystery Babylon, the Great, the Mother of harlots, and abominations of the earth." Is this a literal woman with literal writing on her forehead? Again, not at all. It is symbolic language signifying a fallen spiritual city that outside looks rich, but inside are abominations and filth. To look for a literal woman with a name literally marked in her forehead would be foolishness, would you agree? Yet this type of unsound hermeneutic is routinely practiced by many theologians in chapters such as Revelation 13. But in these cryptic images, we see the battle against the one true God, and the images of the god of this world. One Kingdom of the Lamb, with the man of law serving God, and the other is the kingdom of the beast, with the man of lawlessness (sin) serving Satan. Images of the Christ, and of the false Christ.

Babylon the Great is the congregation of God that ONCE WAS a representative of God for the past 2,000 years, but her mind has become one with Satan by allowing abominations into her which made her a harlot. This is the church in spiritual crisis! Apostasy and Desolation are the signs that we, Elects, can see which God commanded to come out to avoid being judged along with those who receives the mark of the beast.

It is happening right now.
 
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TribulationSigns

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YES IT IS ON THE BODY SO SAYS JESUS
I might read the rest of this nonsense later as you so often have such bizarre teachings as it won't make any sense

Sounds like you have been offended by the Truth lately? I hope and pray that Holy Spirit shall open your eyes to the Truth.
 
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seventysevens

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Sounds like you have been offended by the Truth lately? I hope and pray that Holy Spirit shall open your eyes to the Truth.
No I haven't , it is just you rarely make sense , you spiritualize, symbolize , allegorize, just about everything , will be expecting you to say that Jesus really didn't raise from dead to life but it was just a spiritual way to say he returned to life after death, God put a real physical mark on Cain so that no one would kill him and the AC will cause people to accept a mark or he will kill them , sorry man your method of interpreting scripture needs a regrouping and see what is real
 
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LastSeven

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READ CHAPTER 13 RIGHT HAND or FOREHEAD , maybe you don't have these but that is what scripture says
NO you don't Get It
You're such a literalist. Didn't you read about the mark God's people had on their hands and their foreheads in Deuteronomy? Do you think those were literal marks too? Perhaps it's you, who doesn't get it.
 
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LastSeven

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Chapter 14 says if anyone accepts the mark they will go to the lake of fire period
If a person rejects Christ they will take the mark and be damned
If a person rejects the mark they will be killed as a martyr Rev2 0
If a person rejects Christ for ANY reason they are damned as per scripture , have you read any of it - how is it you don't know this ?
As I said, according to you, there are now two ways to damnation.

1. Reject Jesus.
-or-
2. Accept the mark.

In other words, (according to you) I could accept Jesus, but also accept the mark and still be damned? In light of what Jesus said in John 11:26, does that make any sense to you?
 
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LastSeven

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No I haven't, it is just you rarely make sense, you spiritualize, symbolize, allegorize, just about everything, will be expecting you to say that Jesus really didn't raise from dead to life but it was just a spiritual way to say he returned to life after death, God put a real physical mark on Cain so that no one would kill him and the AC will cause people to accept a mark or he will kill them, sorry man your method of interpreting scripture needs a regrouping and see what is real
If the literal reading doesn't make sense (which is obviously the case here) then it's o.k. to consider a metaphorical option. In fact, it is wise to do so. Why are you so opposed to that?
 
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seventysevens

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As I said, according to you, there are now two ways to damnation.

1. Reject Jesus.
-or-
2. Accept the mark.

In other words, (according to you) I could accept Jesus, but also accept the mark and still be damned? In light of what Jesus said in John 11:26, does that make any sense to you?
WRONG !
you just don't understand the basics
1. If you reject Jesus - being that you do not accept the gift of salvation - or do not believe Jesus is God you will be damned - scripture says that plainly in an outright manner - it covers any and all times or situations

2. If you accept Jesus and know what he says about the mark you will not take it and spend eternity with him - but if you do accept the mark it means you have turned your back on Jesus and have chosen to reject him in favor of the mark

very simple , what makes no sense is that you don't understand this simple thing and are trying to say that I am saying something that I am not saying
simple you choose one or the other
 
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seventysevens

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If the literal reading doesn't make sense (which is obviously the case here) then it's o.k. to consider a metaphorical option. In fact, it is wise to do so. Why are you so opposed to that?
simple because scripture almost always will interpret it self , so there is no need to make it mean something it does not say just to avoid the intended meaning
Think about it
consider someone always saying you mean something other than what you mean on a continual basis - you would avoid that person ;)
 
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TribulationSigns

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No I haven't , it is just you rarely make sense , you espiritualiz,NOsymbolize , allegorize, just about everything

Not everything. You just avoid "spiritualize, symbolize, allegorize" as a plague and consider it as foolish, which is too bad:

1Co 2:12-14
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

will be expecting you to say that Jesus really didn't raise from dead to life but it was just a spiritual way to say he returned to life after death

I did not say that.

God put a real physical mark on Cain so that no one would kill him

Actually, God did not exactly say he put a physical mark so I need to research a little bit on this.

the AC will cause people to accept a mark or he will kill them

That is your private interpretation. According to the context of the passage, it was the beast with two horns like a lamb, not your so-called Antichrist, who has caused many to receive the mark of the beast.

Rev 13:15-18
[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
 
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LastSeven

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Don't forget the unforgivable sin...blasphemy of the Holy spirit.
Good point. Except, I don't believe it's possible for a Christian to commit that sin because it would require one to claim that the Holy Spirit is the devil. That's a willful denial of the righteousness of God himself and if you do that then you're not saved anyway.

The issue is the mark of the beast. If it's a physical mark, then it could be forced upon you, and there's no way that God would take away your salvation for something that somebody else could do to you.

And since we know that the mark dooms one to death, it can not be something that somebody else could do to you. It has to be your own choice, which means you can make that choice with or without a physical mark.
 
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TribulationSigns

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@TribulationSigns
Thanks, you dont see it as a monetary system then.

Sorry if I have missed your post as you can see that I was busy responding to others.

No, the mark of the beast has nothing to do with the monetary system. The mark is to signify Satan's ownership of people who receive it. The name is to signify they are part of his spiritual family. And the number is to signify their lot or part is the beast. Those people who receive these signs have "fallen" away from God, and are now deceived into worshiping the image or likeness of the beast.

Im not sure what you mean by "work of the church" in place of that.

Those deceived people IN THE CONGREGATION of ISRAEL, the CHURCH, are cut off having received the mark of the beast in their minds and hands. The 'works' of their heart is to worship this image or likeness of Satan, and the mark on their hand is to illustrate this.

Revelation 9:20
  • "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:"
The works of their hands are idol worship (a god of their own making). It is to serve a false god rather than Christ, wherein these deceived people are really worshipping devils. For example, they worship a false doctrine where it says you need to pay tithes in order to live propersity, or feel good gospel, tolerate or support homosexuality marriage and pastorship, women in position, speaking in tongues, etc. The 666 is a number of man (representing 2/3 parts) who is deceived by the spirit of antichrist whose hand and mind is to do the works of the devil, and to worship the "likeness" or image of the beast:

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12
  • "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  • And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
You can see that this has NOTHING to do with buying food at the store with the mark on your right hand or forehead. None of that! It is a spiritual mark to show that you are buying or worship the lies that come out of the mouth of the false prophets and christs. The mouth is the power! That is where false doctrines comes from! You reject the True testimony of Elect (Two Witnesses) in favor of false prophets like Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyers. Because you do not love the truth, God will allow you to believe their lies as a judgment so that you will not find salvation (seek death, but not find it or desire to die but death flee from you, Revelation 9). See what I am saying?

Let me try explain this way... man in the works of the devil, and also this is an illustration that it is God who is sending these unfaithful this delusion because they would not believe the truth preached in love. These antichrists who come after the 'workings' of Satan (with all lying signs and wonders to deceive) are those who cause them to receive this mark and be cut off from God. The phrase 'mark of the beast' refers to their being brought into servitude to the spirit of antichrist and deceived (Revelation 14:9, 20:4). They fall because of the judgment of God for not receiving the truth. Therefore, if anyone teaches that the mark of the beast is physical and is something you need to use to buy food at the store does not understand what Scripture actually says.

Hope this helps.
 
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LastSeven

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simple because scripture almost always will interpret it self , so there is no need to make it mean something it does not say just to avoid the intended meaning
Think about it
Surely you're not implying that I'm trying to "avoid the intended meaning". Why would any Bible believing Christian do that? Don't we all just want to understand?
consider someone always saying you mean something other than what you mean on a continual basis - you would avoid that person ;)
Not if he were a prophet or a poet.
 
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seventysevens

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Actually, God did not exactly say he put a physical mark so I need to research a little bit on this.
God put a mark on CAIN
Rev 13:15-18
[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Notice it is the AC /beast that cause people to take the mark and if you don't take the mark you can't buy or sell and IF you study you will find the story of the Man of Lawlessness - Man of Sin who sits in the throne calling himself God will demand that everyone worship him and he will send his armies to kill all that will not accept the mark

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Gen4
13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.

That mark would be visible so people would know Cain had a mark that God put on him ,

since you proclaim that you study for long long long time you should already know this
 
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