"The Sad Truth Of Tolkien Spirituality"

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Hi.
Prefaith I read the LOTR several times, the hobbit a few times and did some minor studies about the Silmarillion which I also read a few times.
Tolkiens Eru is as close to God as one can make a fictional depiction of Him.
Gandalfs ressurrection is a nice allegory to Christ's ressurection.
But for me, I now have trouble enjoying Tolkiens works as it is full of occultism.
Gandalf is a magician, in an order of magicians....Rings of power...Aragorn commanding the dead to do his bidding...
I really do enjoy both Tolkiens good vs evil theme and of course the triumph of good over evil, as I also enjoy original Star wars by George Lucas for the same reasons.

These works gave me joy and hope in a dark world. Now the light of Christ illuminates the darkness in it, and it has become irrelevant, I do not any longer need these fairytales to nourish me as I now have real food to eat.
What is good is good. There are lots and lots of references to good in Tolkiens works. But it remains fiction. It is still my favourite fiction though.

I read though the link you gave in the inital post and there was a comment there about Tolkies inspiration that is new to me:
Indeed, Tolkien frequently states that he did not invent his stories, but that he rather “recorded” or “reported” what was already there.
I want to investigate this further and if possible see pictures of Tolkiens own writing about that. Or just read transcriptions of his writings about this theme.

Gloria in excelsis Deo!
 
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dms1972

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I want to investigate this further and if possible see pictures of Tolkiens own writing about that. Or just read transcriptions of his writings about this theme.

Like you I'd like to see if Tolkien ever described his sub-creation in that way as "recording" or "reporting" what was already there. As I understand it he started by inventing the Elfin languages, then the stories came later as a way to bring those languages to life.

Elvish languages (Middle-earth) - Wikipedia

Artists describe the creative process in various ways. CS Lewis for instance once said he was "pregnant with book". I have read in reference to Michaelangelo and his sculpting, that he described the figures he was sculpting as being in the stone clamoring to be freed, and that he chipped away the stone to uncover the masterpieces. This suggests a measure of humility on the part of such artists.
 
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dms1972

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But for me, I now have trouble enjoying Tolkiens works as it is full of occultism.

I am struggling to see where the occultism is in the books beyond there being a couple of wizards in the story?
 
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Like you I'd like to see if Tolkien ever described his sub-creation in that way as "recording" or "reporting" what was already there. As I understand it he started by inventing the Elfin languages, then the stories came later as a way to bring those languages to life.

Elvish languages (Middle-earth) - Wikipedia

Artists describe the creative process in various ways. CS Lewis for instance once said he was "pregnant with book". I have read in reference to Michaelangelo and his sculpting, that he described the figures he was sculpting as being in the stone clamoring to be freed, and that he chipped away the stone to uncover the masterpieces. This suggests a measure of humility on the part of such artists.

My understanding of Tolkiens works and process of creation was as you described a consequence of his love of language. Mr. Carmichael's information is new to me and I have now sent him a sandwichgram to give him a chance to back up his claims about Tolkiens creative prosess. If he replies with plausible information I will share it here.

Soli Deo bonum.
 
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I am struggling to see where the occultism is in the books beyond there being a couple of wizards in the story?

I am not so strong in high ways. I prefer to stay low, very low or I wander off the path into ungodly ways.
The words magic, wizard, undead repels me. I was involved with magic, paganism, wicca, invoking the dead, among other impure practices before faith. And now anything remotely accepting those kind of activities are difficult for me to handle.
The rings of power are occult. Commanding the dead are occult.
It is very nice to observe how pure Gandalf and Galadriel are. They are refusing to even touch the dark ring. Fearing its power and the corruption it will bring upon them.
There is so much light and hope and faith in his books, and for me as an unbeliever it was a beacon of light in a dark world.
This article is very good at displaying the good in Tolkiens works:
Faith and fantasy: Tolkien the Catholic, The Lord of the Rings, and Peter Jackson’s film trilogy - Decent Films
This reference in the article is particularly nice:
This sense of hope in Middle-earth is also rooted in an undefined but definite awareness of Providence. The name of Eru may not be spoken in The Lord of the Rings, but his will is evident from the outset, when Gandalf explains to Frodo the significance of the evil Ring being discovered by his uncle Bilbo, a humble hobbit. In that seemingly chance occurence, Gandalf says,

"…there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought."

Gandalf can "put it no plainer," of course, because in this story Tolkien wishes to avoid explicit entanglement with religious doctrine. Nevertheless, the underlying idea is clear.

I heard a story from a gym in an american study place.
The students came in a saw the cleaningman reading a book. They asked him what he was reading and he replied: The revelation of John. As the students were taught it was a difficult book to understand, they asked him if he understood what it was saying. He replied yes, it is easy: Jesus wins.

Gloria in excelsis Deo!
 
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dms1972

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I think its important here not to mispresent Tolkien or his works - the Carmichael article about Tolkien spirituality is one view (a negative critical one) on Tolkien's works - there are others who find things of value in Tolkien writings- eg. Clyde Kilby (who knew Tolkien personally) and Fleming Rutledge (author of The Battle for Middle Earth) to name two.

I don't mind reading a critique but I tend to avoid critiques that find it hard to find anything of value in what they are evaluating - even if one wants to point up concerns there is rarely an excuse for being almost entirely negative.

When it comes to the Inklings if one is concerned about occultism Charles Williams leant far more in that direction and incorporated some ideas into some of his works which are at best highly questionable. However not that many people read Williams compared to Tolkien whose works have a much higher profile.
 
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(BACKGROUND) I recently saw some illustrations by a man called Ted Nasmith. I liked some of his artwork. Some of his art is about a book called The Silmarillion. He's done a lot of work for Tolkien's books.

I have a basic knoweldge of The Lord of the Rings from when I was young. I thought it might be nice to read the books and also The Silmarillion but I happened to find this essay. It doesn't outright say do not read Tolkien but it implies his works are not good for Christianity.

I know a lot of people love Tolkien's books. What do you think of this essay? It's a long read btw but this is a shortened version.


The Sad Truth Of Tolkien Spirituality | The Sacred Sandwich

If you do not agree with and/or like the essay, please still try and give some positive thoughts. I don't know much about the author or the website it is posted on.

Thanks

Gloria in excelsis Deo!
Your post renewed my interest in Tolkiens works and now I found this video.
The great and exemplary farmer Maggot!
Who is to be admired and learned from if you follow the view of the Men of the west. Wich I highly recommend you all do.
The eye is the lamp of the body. Therefore if your eye is sincere, your whole body will be full of light.
 
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dms1972

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To be honest my thoughts are mixed about Tolkien and Lewis also and their use of Fairy Stories to communicate christian truth - I don't know that they even had evangelism in mind - the idea of a pre-evangelistic role for his fiction occured to Lewis after he discovered many of his adult readers didn't make the connections between Maleldil and Christ in his Space Trilogy. I don't think there is anything wrong with the stories - I just think people need to move beyond them. Building a cult out of them seems the wrong response - I feel the same about Star Wars - I enjoyed the films (at least the first three - though they are more gnostic than anything Tolkien wrote) - but I cannot be bothered with people who take it so seriously as to start a Jedi Religion.

Does loving Aslan or Gandalf mean one has become a christian?
 
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Some people do get a bit carried away - I was reading there was a group in the Mojave desert in the 70s who were hoping to start excavating to find the ruins of Minas Tirith (the great city of Gondor in LOTR)!!!

I realize it is a great leap from Lotr to Fallout(3) but there seem to me to be possible to find some connections. (I spent some time on the forum Whats on your mind...)
I would very much like to come in contact with anyone involved with pushing for those excavations you mention. Just to have a link to some material about them is interesting to.
As for Jedi-religion, before faith I was reading about some guys in Australia publicly pushing that. They had allegedly registered their community with a statement of faith and everything. I found it funny, and because there came online offers for free businesscards, I ended up with 1000(?) business cards with my name and contact info calling myself Jedi in training. Mostly for fun, but I think it was alot of desperation for Light, Truth and Life. As blind as I was that was the most reasonable of all views. I knew that Jedi's wielding the force as depicted in Star Wars was not the Thruth. But it carried some amount of light. The good ones fighting the bad ones, and winning... Hope.. So strong.
God is the God of hope.
Hallelujah!
Jesus Christ! The way, the Life, the Truth. Light of the world.
What a friend we have in Jesus.
His name is Faithful.
TGBTG!
 
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dms1972

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I would very much like to come in contact with anyone involved with pushing for those excavations you mention. Just to have a link to some material about them is interesting to.

It never went ahead. There is no one pushing for it anymore - I read the group fell apart.
 
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It never went ahead. There is no one pushing for it anymore - I read the group fell apart.
I understand that the group is not active for the purpose of excavating a fictional city anymore, still I would like to come in conatct with any member of this group. Even if the group is dismantled.
 
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My understanding of Tolkiens works and process of creation was as you described a consequence of his love of language. Mr. Carmichael's information is new to me and I have now sent him a sandwichgram to give him a chance to back up his claims about Tolkiens creative prosess. If he replies with plausible information I will share it here.

Soli Deo bonum.
Gloria in excelsis Deo!
I managed to get my hand on a copy of "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and after studying a bit I have come to the conclusion that indeed Tolkien considered himself as a recorder.
He writes that he has long ceased to invent, now he wait until he seem to know what happened or until the stories write themselves. This can be read in letter 180 on page 231. the letter is dated 14 january 1956.
I have made a short study which I will put as an attachment if you are interested to see more.

God bless you all in Jesu name.
 

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  • Notes on A commentary to Tolkiens Letters.pdf
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jamiec

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(BACKGROUND) I recently saw some illustrations by a man called Ted Nasmith. I liked some of his artwork. Some of his art is about a book called The Silmarillion. He's done a lot of work for Tolkien's books.

I have a basic knoweldge of The Lord of the Rings from when I was young. I thought it might be nice to read the books and also The Silmarillion but I happened to find this essay. It doesn't outright say do not read Tolkien but it implies his works are not good for Christianity.

I know a lot of people love Tolkien's books. What do you think of this essay? It's a long read btw but this is a shortened version.


The Sad Truth Of Tolkien Spirituality | The Sacred Sandwich

If you do not agree with and/or like the essay, please still try and give some positive thoughts. I don't know much about the author or the website it is posted on.

Thanks
My long answer. Sorry.
“For those Christians who insist on promoting and celebrating the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien as a rich tapestry of Christian allegory....”
LOTR is not an allegory. Tolkien says explicitly that it is not, and the detail of the book bears him out.
“The evidence is shocking: Neo-Pagans, Gnostics and other occult-based religionists absolutely adore Tolkien’s works, but are not turning to Christianity for spiritual understanding. Instead, they are extracting new beliefs out of his writings that support and bolster their own alternative religions. Why?”
LOTR is a work of literature, not of propaganda or apologetics. The Iliad is a work of literature, not of propaganda or apologetics. People don’t read “Paradise Lost” in order to share Milton’s theology, or the Aeneid, in order to worship Rome, Augustus, Juppiter or Juno, but because these are both great poems, which enrich and enlarge the reader. I don’t read the Gilgamesh poem in order to believe in the deities of Ancient Iraq, but because it is a (very great &) humane & thought-provoking and ancient poem. There is nothing wrong or dodgy about reading Norse mythology, either.
“For starters, Tolkien, despite his abhorrence of the occult and the practice of it, still indiscriminately and carelessly wove many biblically-condemned occult elements throughout his narratives to enhance the pagan mystique and mythic landscape of his stories, without anticipating its immediate appeal to the adherents of Theosophy and Neo-paganism.”
“Occult elements” such as...? Having characters perform black magic, is not the same as advocating black magic. The Bible contains three mentions of incest, mentions of exterminations, and much more: does it follow that it is advocating incest, extermination, and other evils ? Of course not. And in LOTR, none of the nasty stuff is commanded by a god.

Theosophists do all sorts of things other people do: including eating, reading, drinking, sleeping, working, breathing; Are Christians to destroy themselves, lest by breathing they have something in common with Theosophists ?
“Secondly, Tolkien’s extensive cosmology, created outside the bounds of Genesis and other books of the Bible, reflects in many ways the esoteric understanding of Gnosticism, the ancient enemy of biblical Christianity, to the delight and approval of most modern-day gnostics.”
His cosmology fits his story, and that is what matters. His myth is a work of imagination, not of Scripture. The absence of Elves, Orcs, Trolls, Ents, dragons, wargs, half-orcs, Easterlings, Southrons, Hobbits, Wizards, Valar and Bombadil from the Bible, does not mean that Tolkien did wrong by peopling his invented world with them. There is nothing remotely Gnostic about it. There is no Biblical command for people to fill their minds only with the Bible.
“And lastly, Tolkien’s published letters and essays reveal his other missteps which do not align with Christianity: 1) the frequent veiled assertions that his myths were not invented, but “recorded” by him as revealed ancient truths, perhaps divinely inspired; and 2) his regressed ancestral memories of Atlantis which hint at a belief in both reincarnation and Plato’s imaginary “island of Atlas.””
(1) Where does he claim his myths were inspired ? He claims in LOTR to be translator & editor of an ancient book in which the story of the Quest of the Ring is told. This is a literary device, to bridge the gap between him, & and the fictional ancient past in which the Quest is set.

(2) This is a literary device, which has nothing to do with re-incarnation.
“These are the grim facts concerning the “religious affordances” of Tolkien’s literary works which have given the growing Neo-Pagan community just as much spiritual insight and guidance for their particular beliefs as it has given Christians in theirs, if not more so.”
Tolkien is no more to blame for the abuse of his book by nutty USAnians, than St John is to blame for the crazed interpretations some people have got from the Book of Revelation. Eccentrics & fanatics can spoil anything, regardless of its maker’s intentions. Perhaps no book has been more perverted by ignoramuses, fanatics & eccentrics than the Bible.
“The extensive proof of this dangerous syncretism in Tolkien’s mythology is compelling and overwhelming, as revealed in the groundbreaking analysis by Markus Altena Davidsen in his 2014 doctoral thesis, The Spiritual Tolkien Milieu: A Study of Fiction-based Religion....”
What syncretism ? He was a storyteller, with an imagunation enriched from many different sources. IOW, he was very well-read, and drew upon what he had read, and experienced in order to create his mythology. His knowledge of Old English, Old Norse, Finnish & Welsh, his experiences in WW1, his reading of Norse legends, of the Kalevala & of Beowulf, all find a place in LOTR. That is not “syncretism”; that is enriching & deepening & developing one’s story with one’s reading, memories, & experiences.

A quotation or two from Altena:
“This [dissertation] offers a comprehensive analysis of the history, social organisation, and belief dynamics of the spiritual Tolkien milieu, a largely online‐situated network of individuals and groups that draw on J.R.R. Tolkien’s literary mythology for spiritual inspiration. It is the first academic treatment of Tolkien spirituality and one of the first monographs on fiction‐based religion, a type of religion that uses fiction as authoritative texts.”
Most people are level-headed & sane enough to be able to tell the difference between a literary mythology, and a religion. That some people make a religion out of LOTR, Star Wars, Harry Potter, & probably other fictions, does not oblige anyone else to do so. There are many good lessons in LOTR - one can learn from Aragorn’s rejection of moral relativism, from Gandalf’s refusal of Frodo’s offer of the Ring, from the despair of Denethor, from the treachery and envy of Saruman, & from a hundred other things in LOTR, without treating this (very good) book as Scripture.
“In chapters 7 through 16, I analyse the religious affordances of Tolkien’s literary mythology and carry out a number of case studies of groups within the spiritual Tolkien milieu. Taken together, the ten chapters offer a thick description of the spiritual Tolkien milieu. Chapter 7 is entitled “The Religious Affordances of The Lord of the Rings”. In this chapter, I demonstrate that The Lord of the Rings contains numerous fantastic elements (e.g. superhuman beings, otherworlds, magic, visions) and limited elements of narrative religion (e.g. divine powers and rituals directed at them; morality, cosmology, and eschatology). It also includes a frame narrative that stages the main story as ‘feigned history’ and thus thematises its veracity. While all this was meant by Tolkien to be taken with a grain of salt, The Lord of the Rings certainly contains textual and paratextual elements that make a non‐fictional reading of the text possible.”
No, no, no, no. It is not meant to be taken “with a grain of salt”. It is a “really long story”, a “feigned history”. It is not mostly true history, with a few fictions in it: it is a myth, a fairytale. Its truth is moral, and metaphysical; not historical.

That a myth can be read as non-fiction, does not make that reading a correct one. A myth remains a myth, even if it is taken as history. Is King Kong to be taken as a documentary about how a giant ape attacked New York, on the ground that New York is a real location on the map ?

The last paragraph is headed: “Christians Unequally Yoked With Tolkien’s Spiritual Children”. Altena brings no evidence to show that his assertion is accurate.

The essay tries to condemn LOTR by association: New Agers like it a lot, & even make religions out of it - therefore, Christians are not to like it. The story itself, its action, course, motives, speeches, ideas, the virtues & vices of the characters, the characterisation, are all completely ignored.

LOTR is a work of great imaginative power, genius, & beauty. These are good gifts of God, so they attract people. It is extra-ordinarily vivid & immediate, and that too attracts people. In a world full of depraved and dehumanising ideas, it is a Godsent shaft of light that helps readers not to “darken their souls”, & to think instead of what is “good and true and beautiful”.
 
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jamiec

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I can't really argue with your thoughts on it. I don't have a strong opinion yet. What I know about Tolkien's books is mostly from that essay. I liked the LotR films when I was younger but I didn't understand that there was depth to them.
One of the leading features of LOTR, is that it takes place in a world with a vast weight and length of history behind it. The films do not succeed in conveying much of this atmosphere. Elrond is about 6,500 years old, and Galadriel is much older. But if one did not know the contents of the books, of LOTR & the Sil, one would not know either of these things.

The events covered in the films come at a very late stage in the history of the invented world, very close to the end of that invented history. And that too is not obvious unless one is familiar with the books.

It is the depth, detail, and consistency of the tale, that are, I think, a major source of the power of LOTR. There is world-building, with those qualities, not simply for the story being told in LOTR, but for the "feigned history/geography/ languages/etc." that lead up to the events, places, languages, etc., in LOTR. So the mountains, statues, armies, weapons, caves, rivers, forests, languages, etc., have the consistency of reality to an unusual degree. In many authors, their inventions have little or no depth - especially if they are not Main Characters. The same lack of depth characterises many of the off-stage events in such books. In LOTR, by contrast, even minor characters have depth. When, for instance, Aragorn refers to Beren & Luthien, he is talking about two people in the ancient past of that world, whose story of great personal relevance to him (& not only because they are his direct ancestors, at a remove of about 60 generations & 6,500 years). All of the references are references to things real in that feigned world, things with histories in that world. The Ring is called Isildur's Bane, because that is exactly what it was: the feigned history has a lot to say about Isildur (a more recent ancestor of Aragorn, separated from him by a mere 38 generations & 3,000 years).

As for occultism, just what do people mean when they say there is occultism in LOTR ? A good comment on that, may be this exchange from the book:

"The air was very still, and the dell was dark, and the Elf-lady beside him was tall and pale. 'What shall we look for, and what shall we see? ' asked Frodo, filled with awe.

`Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, `and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look? '

Frodo did not answer.

`And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic? '

'I did,' said Sam, trembling a little between fear and curiosity. `I'll have a peep, Lady, if you're willing.'

`And I'd not mind a glimpse of what's going on at home,' he said in an aside to Frodo. 'It seems a terrible long time that I've been away. But there, like as not I'll only see the stars, or something that I won't understand.'

'Like as not,' said the Lady with a gentle laugh. `But come, you shall look and see what you may. Do not touch the water!'"

- from: The Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, chapter 7, The Mirror of Galadriel.
 
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Alistair_Wonderland

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The standard of people using his works to strengthen their own non-Christian beliefs is irrelevant, as that happens with literally everything in existence, including the Bible. Personal bias blinds people and makes them see things that aren't there or not see things that are. (For a modern example, take any show where two characters of the same sex so much as look at one another and people assume they're gay.)

As for being destructive to the Christian faith, I say the opposite. It might be destructive to the author of that article's idea of what Christianity should be, and I know a lot of people who act like "it isn't Cristian if it isn't explicitly screaming about Jesus and the church culture of my denomination", but God doesn't give a fig about religion and church culture and denominations and all that. Let's face it: we're always villainizing this or that for being against Christian beliefs, when in the end all God said was to believe in Him. We're all on the same side, even if we often forget that. Having a clearly fictional series that does not claim to bear any truth behind its scenarios is a wonderful way to expand one's understanding of God, so long as one recognizes that the content is fiction and more of a way to see another person's opinion on God. And hearing other people's opinions on God is the entire basis of the Church: if we refuse to listen to their opinions on God, we will become locked in our own views, until we fester into a culture of narrow-minded conformity like the Pharisees.

Also, anyone who can't take a storybook as nothing more or less than a story really is lacking in imagination. Not everything has to have a message, after all.
 
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john the youngest

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I don't think much of it. A lot of Lotr, and especially the hobbit, was based on play, and he wrote the hobbit for his children originally. In fact, Tolkien originally wanted to include an actual map of the mountain with invisible ink -- things that are fun just for being fun. Likewise, his books are full of riddles, and puns that a linguist would probable love, and which a lot of people still don't get.

I've often thought that people into "spells" must have had a defective childhood and just don't understand what play and fun is, or imagination or pretending. Actually, a good dose of getting them to understand that Tolkien was having fun and writing for children - to actually get it - might cure them.
 
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Leah2727

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I am not sure how much I can add to this discussion except to say that Tolkien was a translator of Beowulf before he became a fiction writer.

You could even say his entire oeuvre was Beowulf fanfic.

Now, Beowulf was a pagan story in its oral tradition but was only written down by Christians. It has Christian allusions such as references to "Agents of Satan" and "Descendants of Cain."

It is about a pagan world on the cusp of becoming Christian, like Tolkien's Middle Earth.

Those who point out the occultic elements in Tolkien's work are correct, but those things which are occulted, that is, hidden, are about to be revealed, which is the Christian advance over paganism.

The "Things Hidden since the Foundations of the World," as Rene Girard put it, Christ now revealed for all of us to see.

BTW,

I know a a guy who named his motorcycle "Shadowfax" and he's a Christian.
 
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Jipsah

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I haven't read enough (I have read LOTR and the Hobbit - and a bit of the Silmarilion) to know the progression from Melkor to Morgoth to Sauron (is Sauron and Morgoth the same character?).
Melkor/Morgoth is Satan. Sauron is a very fallen angel
 
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Jipsah

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Gandalf is a magician, in an order of magicians.
Gandalf is a maia, an angel, in an order of angels, reporting to the valar, who are archangels. Yep, as such they have extraordinary power.

Rings of power.
Weapons forged by a fallen angel,

Aragorn commanding the dead to do his bidding...
They were bound by an oath they had taken to serve the king. He's the king.
 
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