THE SABBATH TRUTH!

[Studyman]

Brother, once God removes sin from the universe, we will all rest from the misery it brings. You seem a good candidate to speak to about this new truth on the Sabbath, because you do not have the traditions of a church group to get in the way.

Themes as you describe can get in the way of listening to what God “reveals” with the first day in Genesis.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 NIV)​

Most people think God created everything in a week, when the Bible “reveals” with the first day starting with the light that there was a time before the week of creation. God has been creating before He prepared a home for us here on the earth in the week of creation.

Gen. 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

It seems like the Holy Scriptures are saying that when the Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh, created the Earth, darkness came first. Is this not what this first 3 verses in Genesis tells us?

God made us immortal first than after Satan deceived Eve to rebel, God took away “the tree of life” so that we would not “live forever”. To listen to what God has “revealed” you must resist such assumption as this theme you see that can blind you to what is “revealed”.

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 NIV)​

My friend, if man was already created immortal, then why was there a "Tree of Life" that must be eaten to live forever? There is no evidence that Adam or Eve had already eaten from this tree. If they are created immortal, there would be no need for a "Tree of Life" for them to eat from would there? And how can a person created immortal, like satan, not live forever?

I respectfully disagree with this understanding. Adam and Eve were humans just as we are. Not immortal as satan. In my understaing anyway.
​

Adam and Eve were made adults, they were never children as were born to them Cain and Abel. General assumptions can blind us to see what is “revealed”.

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Adam was not created with knowledge of his reason for being, just as a child is not born with this knowledge. A child must first be taught truth and knowledge, otherwise will he not always remain a child? In the same manner, Adam was not created with knowledge. He had to be taught, just as a child has to be taught.

So maybe the phrase "child first, then adult" could have been better stated "Ignorance first, then knowledge". But the theme would still be the same would it not?

I would say that righteousness came first by obeying God, but Satan caused sin to enter God’s creation when He deceived Eve to rebel against the instructions of God. Careful with your trust of themes blinding you to what is “revealed”.

Can we even know righteousness, without first being exposed to evil? When is a child judged by God? Before they choose between what God tells them, and what the "other" voice tells them? Or after they know the difference and make a choice?

I can see your point here, but if Eve was created in Righteousness, then a child is also born in righteousness, YES? Was Eve judged before God prepared a choice for her? Or After? And if she would have chosen to listen to God and not the serpent, then would it not be said that "Righteousness came first"? But in her case, the very first "choice" she made between good and evil, she chose evil.

So then, as with all men, Evil came first. Is this not a valid point?

Agreed, but we should not make assumptions and actually listen to what God “reveals” in Genesis. Yes, that has been the assumption of the Jews based on God’s instructions about the Sabbath in Israel.

Gen. 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

I'm not assuming the Jews knew the truth, but I am assuming the Christ, who created the Day, knows the truth.

Jesus was taken down due to the start of the Sabbath in Israel, but the Sabbath according to Genesis is not a day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden. In Israel the Sabbath falls between two days of the week as established in Genesis first day from first light to light again in the morning and confirmed by other parts of the Scriptures.

A more careful view of what God “reveals” in Genesis shows there is more complexity to the Sabbath than the simplified view of it we have come to except. I think what has happened here is that when God has something complicated to tell us we do not listen assuming everything God “reveals” is simple.

I am hopeful that without loyalty to the traditions of a large group you may find it easier to see my point of view, but on the other hand I believe God prepared our church to see this truth in the future. It may be that no one else but Seventh-day Adventists are prepared to give value to this new depth to our understanding of the Sabbath. The question is, when does the “evening” fall in the first day in Genesis? When you resist assuming it falls at the beginning of the first day because of the Sabbath in Israel you can see that it falls in the middle of the first day from first light to light again in the morning. Morning ends the first day and begins the second day until the first Sabbath from morning to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I have my doubts that the entire Law and Prophets, including Moses and Jesus were oblivious to the true Sabbath of God. Maybe SDA is the only true church, but the JW also believe they are the only true church, and so do the Catholics, and many other religious franchises make the same claim.

I appreciate your conversion attempt but I have gone many rounds with SDA preachers years ago, and no offence intended, but I'm sticking with the assumption that God gave Israel HIS Oracles, which includes HIS Holy Sabbath that starts in the Evening.

I have served God and came to my understanding in 30 years of study apart from SDA. If God wants to reveal a truth to me, It will be through the Scriptures as HE has done my whole Spiritual journey.

I agree with much of your understanding of scriptures, as well as others on this forum, but I have been serving God in His Holy Sabbath for 30 years apart from the organized religions of the land I was born into, and I find my understanding of scriptures quite hard to argue with, many times to my surprise. I am thankful that HE is faithful to honor His Promises in John. 14:15-17, and will do nothing to jeopardize it.

2 Tim. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

May God lead us both into His perfect truth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I knew this was your agenda when you deceptively asked the question.

My agenda, however, was to expose this popular religious myth that God placed 613 laws on the necks of men, then lied to them about them. Not to discredit you, but in God's Love for you. And your anger is representative of the anger of religious men since Cain.

The Holy Feast's of the Christ are a road map to the Salvation of God, in my experience of observing them for 30 years. It begins with Passover, but doesn't end there as many modern religions imply. It is followed by the Holy Feast of Unleavened Bread that Paul instructed us to "Keep", which symbolize our journey out of Sin, AKA, Transgressions of God's Laws. This Holy Feast is followed by Pentecost or "first Fruits" which pictures the first begotten children of God during the church age of the New Covenant, As the first part of Acts demonstrates, followed by the Holy Feast of the Christ called Feast of Trumpets, which foreshadows the 2nd coming of the Christ to take over Earths Throne. This is followed by Day of Atonement, a Fast Day which foretells of a time not yet come, when the Christ will put sins on the head of satan where it belongs, and lock Him up for a time. This is followed by the Holy Feast of the Lord's Christ called Tabernacles which symbolize our waiting in "Temporary Booths" for a Continuing city, an eternal inheritance. This is followed by "The Last Great Day", or the last day of the Feast of tabernacles which symbolize the great Throne judgment.

In my view, based on the teaching of the NT, Israel's journey from Exodus to Malachi is a detailed spiritual look into the mind of man, what a human with a choice will trend towards, and how we look at authority, any authority. Paul said it was written specifically for us, as examples so we wouldn't lust after disobedience and rebel against perfection as they also lusted.

I believe Him.

I am not saying any more than Paul as to their observations. Paul said to the weak in faith, "let each man be fully convinced in their own mind". Having been convinced by the Word's of the Christ that these are truly Holy Feasts of His, I Glorify God in them, or strive to. But this is not the reason I replied to your post.

I replied to your post because you were furthering a religious teaching that was basically "Anti-Christ". I knew you didn't think that or know that, that is what deception is all about, believing things that are not truth. I didn't show you the point of view to mock you, or discredit you at all. Read my post, I showed you so you could be warned of the dangers of believing falsehoods about God, and worse yet, teaching them to others.

I am sorry you feel the way you do.

I am sorry you feel the way you do.

 

[guevaraj]

It seems like the Holy Scriptures are saying that when the Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh, created the Earth, darkness came first. Is this not what this first 3 verses in Genesis tells us?

Brother, it is reasonable to suppose at first that verse one is part of the first day. However, revealed is what you have to make an effort to understand. When you get to the end of the first day and work back to the beginning of the first day, you realize that everything before the light is before the first day and before the week of creation. An unspecified time before preparing the earth for us God in the beginning created the heavens and the earth. God revealed an unspecified time before creation week an older earth than what we understood at first that we have misrepresented to science because we did not do the work to understand that revealed is an earth that existed before the week of creation. In God's mercy in these last days He has restored respect for the Bible, despite our misrepresentation of the revealed facts, with the Sabbath in Israel telling us that the International Date Line is the site of our origin, where God taught us to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy. What follows is what we learn by listening to the end of the first day and working from the end to the beginning of the first day.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and (Genesis 1:1-3a NIV)​

[the above is prior to the first day below starting with the half first day of light]​

there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3b-5 NIV)​

[the first day ends with the half first day of darkness until the same morning that begins the next day]​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Major1]

I knew this was your agenda when you deceptively asked the question.

My agenda, however, was to expose this popular religious myth that God placed 613 laws on the necks of men, then lied to them about them. Not to discredit you, but in God's Love for you. And your anger is representative of the anger of religious men since Cain.

The Holy Feast's of the Christ are a road map to the Salvation of God, in my experience of observing them for 30 years. It begins with Passover, but doesn't end there as many modern religions imply. It is followed by the Holy Feast of Unleavened Bread that Paul instructed us to "Keep", which symbolize our journey out of Sin, AKA, Transgressions of God's Laws. This Holy Feast is followed by Pentecost or "first Fruits" which pictures the first begotten children of God during the church age of the New Covenant, As the first part of Acts demonstrates, followed by the Holy Feast of the Christ called Feast of Trumpets, which foreshadows the 2nd coming of the Christ to take over Earths Throne. This is followed by Day of Atonement, a Fast Day which foretells of a time not yet come, when the Christ will put sins on the head of satan where it belongs, and lock Him up for a time. This is followed by the Holy Feast of the Lord's Christ called Tabernacles which symbolize our waiting in "Temporary Booths" for a Continuing city, an eternal inheritance. This is followed by "The Last Great Day", or the last day of the Feast of tabernacles which symbolize the great Throne judgment.

In my view, based on the teaching of the NT, Israel's journey from Exodus to Malachi is a detailed spiritual look into the mind of man, what a human with a choice will trend towards, and how we look at authority, any authority. Paul said it was written specifically for us, as examples so we wouldn't lust after disobedience and rebel against perfection as they also lusted.

I believe Him.

I am not saying any more than Paul as to their observations. Paul said to the weak in faith, "let each man be fully convinced in their own mind". Having been convinced by the Word's of the Christ that these are truly Holy Feasts of His, I Glorify God in them, or strive to. But this is not the reason I replied to your post.

I replied to your post because you were furthering a religious teaching that was basically "Anti-Christ". I knew you didn't think that or know that, that is what deception is all about, believing things that are not truth. I didn't show you the point of view to mock you, or discredit you at all. Read my post, I showed you so you could be warned of the dangers of believing falsehoods about God, and worse yet, teaching them to others.

I am sorry you feel the way you do.

You said..........
"My agenda, however, was to expose this popular religious myth that God placed 613 laws on the necks of men, then lied to them about them. "

You seem to say a lot of things. You also seem to do a point of pointing out the problems of others.

Just so that I understand what you said and to make sure I am not speaking to something in error.......
Did you just call God a LIAR in the comment above?????

 

[Studyman]

Brother, it is reasonable to suppose at first that verse one is part of the first day. However, revealed is what you have to make an effort to understand.

The theme to which I refer is based on some Biblical Truths that can not be denied. In creation, God created the heavens and Earth. God Himself said darkness existed before the Light.

When you get to the end of the first day and work back to the beginning of the first day, you realize that everything before the light is before the first day and before the week of creation.

My friend, It is written that in the beginning God Created the Earth, and it was void and filled with darkness. Not before God created the earth, but after. It is Biblically untrue to assert that "everything before the light is before the first day and before the week of creation". The Earth and Heavens are part of the Creation of God. According to the Scriptures, after God created the Earth, it was filled with Darkness.

Therefore, in the creation of God, darkness came first.

An unspecified time before preparing the earth for us God in the beginning created the heavens and the earth. God revealed an unspecified time before creation week an older earth than what we understood at first that we have misrepresented to science because we did not do the work to understand that revealed is an earth that existed before the week of creation.

May I humbly submit to you that the Earth did not exist before God created it. And after God created it, it was filled with darkness, according to His Written Word. Darkness came first my friend. Before the day, before the week, before man, before His Sabbath, but after His Creation, Darkness came first.

I can not ignore this Biblical fact, and would not to promote any doctrine.

In God's mercy in these last days He has restored respect for the Bible, despite our misrepresentation of the revealed facts, with the Sabbath in Israel telling us that the International Date Line is the site of our origin, where God taught us to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy. What follows is what we learn by listening to the end of the first day and working from the end to the beginning of the first day.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and (Genesis 1:1-3a NIV)​

[the above is prior to the first day below starting with the half first day of light]​

there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3b-5 NIV)

[the first day ends with the half first day of darkness until the same morning that begins the next day]​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I can see what you are saying.

And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (NIV)

You are reading this as if the evening wasn't part of the first day. "there was Evening, not part of the first day, and there was morning, which was part of the fist day.

But it can just as easily be read "there was Evening and morning, the first day".

This one sentence, especially from the NIV, isn't enough to create an entire doctrine around in my opinion.

• 
  
• King James Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (KJV) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
  
  
• 
  
• The Message Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (MSG) God named the light Day, he named the dark Night. It was evening, it was morning - Day One.
  
  
• New American Standard Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NAS) God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
  
  
• New Century Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NCV) God named the light "day" and the darkness "night." Evening passed, and morning came. This was the first day.
  
  
• New International Reader's Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NIRV) God called the light "day." He called the darkness "night." There was evening, and there was morning. It was day one.
  
  
• New International Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NIV) God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
  
  
• New King James Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NKJV) God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
• 
  
• New Revised Standard
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NRS) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
  
  
• New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (NRSA) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
  
  
• Orthodox Jewish Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Bereshis 1:5 (OJB) And Elohim called the light Yom (Day), and the darkness He called Lailah (Night). And the erev (evening) and the boker (morning) were Yom Echad (Day One, the First Day, Mk 16:2).
• 
  
• Tyndale
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (TYN) and called the lyghte daye and the darcknesse nyghte: and so of the evenynge and mornynge was made the fyrst daye
  
  
• The Webster Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (WBT) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night: and the evening and the morning were the first day.
  
  
• World English Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (WEB) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. There was evening and there was morning, one day.
  
  
• Wycliffe
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (WYC) and he called the light, day, and the darknesses, night. And the eventide and the morrowtide was made, one day (the first day).
  
  
• Young's Literal Translation
  Chapter Parallel
  Genesis 1:5 (YLT) and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.

I think you are making a mistake by taking this one verse from the NIV and trying to build a doctrine around it. I have provided some other translations which clearly seem to imply, as does the KJV, that God's Day consists of darkness and light, the dark coming first.

This is why I think man should consider "Every Word" of God, regarding doctrine.

Given it is a Biblical Fact that after God created the Earth, it was filled with darkness, it would be perfectly reasonable to expect God's Day to begin at Evening. And the Scriptures seem to agree.

Lev. 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Ex. 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. (End of one day, beginning of the next)

My friend, we are all influenced by the "other voice" in the garden. Adam and Eve was not created immortal, if they had they would still be alive like satan. Both Adam and Jesus died. One was raised from the dead, the other has not. Darkness came first. Ignorance comes first. Sin comes first. Mortal comes first. The evidence you provided against this understanding is not sufficient for me to reject it.

Matt. 4:14. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Why? Because Sin/Darkness comes first.

Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Why? Because Sin/darkness comes first.

I appreciate your zeal, but the scriptures do not support your assertion regarding the Nature of God's creation, and the makeup of God's Day, in my view. At least, certainly not the ones I posted.

I hope you might consider these words and provide Scriptural evidence, more than one sentence from the NIV.

Thank you my friend.

 

[Studyman]

You said..........
"My agenda, however, was to expose this popular religious myth that God placed 613 laws on the necks of men, then lied to them about them. "

You seem to say a lot of things. You also seem to do a point of pointing out the problems of others.

Just so that I understand what you said and to make sure I am not speaking to something in error.......
Did you just call God a LIAR in the comment above?????

Thank you for asking.

According to Scriptures God rescued Abraham's Children from Egypt. Then HE gave His Commandments, Statutes and Laws to them, as He gave His Commandments, His Statutes, and His Laws to Abraham.

And HE told Israel to keep His Commandments, His Laws, and His Statutes, that according to the Holy Scriptures, Abraham obeyed.

And God told them His Laws were not impossible to follow, it just took Faith.

Duet. 30:If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

But Israel rebelled against the Word of God which became flesh, and chose to reject God's instructions.

duet. 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

So according to God, it wasn't HIS Laws that caused the problem, it was their lack of Faith.

But there is a religious doctrine, popular in the religions of the land today, that preaches this is not true. "Many" who come in Christ's Name, teach that after God saved Israel from Egypt, He placed a "yoke of Bondage" of 613 Laws on their necks that were impossible for them to obey, implying that God Lied to Israel in this and many other places where HE pleaded with them, and sent Prophets to plead with them, to Humble themselves to Him and His Instructions that He created for them.

It was this false doctrine that I flagged and exposed. The insidious lie that God saved Israel from Egypt, only to reward them for their trust in Him by placing a "Yoke of Bondage" on their necks impossible to obey, then slaughtered them by the thousands when thy didn't obey.

I am not pointing out the problems with others, I am pointing out a religious doctrine that is a lie, a falsehood. If you choose to promote it, even after you have been shown it is an insidious lie, that's on you, not me.

So to answer your question, I did not call God a Liar. Those religious men who claim God placed 613 Laws on the necks of the men HE just saved from Egypt, that are impossible for men to keep, are calling God a Liar.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you for asking.

According to Scriptures God rescued Abraham's Children from Egypt. Then HE gave His Commandments, Statutes and Laws to them, as He gave His Commandments, His Statutes, and His Laws to Abraham.

And HE told Israel to keep His Commandments, His Laws, and His Statutes, that according to the Holy Scriptures, Abraham obeyed.

And God told them His Laws were not impossible to follow, it just took Faith.

Duet. 30:If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

But Israel rebelled against the Word of God which became flesh, and chose to reject God's instructions.

duet. 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

So according to God, it wasn't HIS Laws that caused the problem, it was their lack of Faith.

But there is a religious doctrine, popular in the religions of the land today, that preaches this is not true. "Many" who come in Christ's Name, teach that after God saved Israel from Egypt, He placed a "yoke of Bondage" of 613 Laws on their necks that were impossible for them to obey, implying that God Lied to Israel in this and many other places where HE pleaded with them, and sent Prophets to plead with them, to Humble themselves to Him and His Instructions that He created for them.

It was this false doctrine that I flagged and exposed. The insidious lie that God saved Israel from Egypt, only to reward them for their trust in Him by placing a "Yoke of Bondage" on their necks impossible to obey, then slaughtered them by the thousands when thy didn't obey.

I am not pointing out the problems with others, I am pointing out a religious doctrine that is a lie, a falsehood. If you choose to promote it, even after you have been shown it is an insidious lie, that's on you, not me.

So to answer your question, I did not call God a Liar. Those religious men who claim God placed 613 Laws on the necks of the men HE just saved from Egypt, that are impossible for men to keep, are calling God a Liar.

If God gave His commandments, His statutes, and His laws to Abraham, why did Moses need to go up on Mount Sinai?

 

[Studyman]

If God gave His commandments, His statutes, and His laws to Abraham, why did Moses need to go up on Mount Sinai?

Abraham's Children had lost site of the Ways of God, and had forgotten God's Covenant with Abraham that Joseph would have taught them.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

So God Had His Laws written on Stone so they wouldn't forget them, and gave Levi a Priesthood who duties were to administer these Laws to the people.. Nowadays, HE writes these Laws on the hearts of His People, at least that is what the Christ of the Bible promised.

You can see how the whole 613 "Yoke of Bondage" falsehood flies in the Face of the God of Abraham can't you? What??? God shows HIS respect for Abraham's Children by placing 613 impossible Laws to keep on their necks, then slaughters them when they didn't keep them?

What a horrible thing to say or imply regarding the Great Merciful God of the Bible. The Scriptures do not teach or imply any such thing. It is truly an extension of the deception the serpent convinced Eve of.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Brother, I have shared an "it is written" as Jesus did to Satan: It is written that we who have "come in" are part of "all Israel". It is you who are trying to loosely interpret Paul to contradict what is written in Romans 11:25 to 32.

OK. We can look at those passages:

Rom 11:25 KJV - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 KJV - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 KJV - For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 KJV - As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 KJV - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 KJV - For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 KJV - Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

In those passages, the writer was inspired to write grammar that clearly maintains the line of distinction between Israel and Gentiles. There are those who derive from these and other verses that even the unbelieving Jews will be saved, even if they died in their unbelief and utter rejection of Christ Jesus. Naysayers don't seem to mind what violence that does to the justice of God by proclaiming that by mere bloodline birth a Jew is ultimately saved no matter how much rebellion against Christ Jesus they died in. What they are preaching is that all Jews will be forced into Heaven whether they wanted it or not, just by their genetics. Is that really what was being said, in all totality, throughout ALL scripture?

So, I hope you don't mind pointing out in all that reference where the writer said anything about us being grafted into Israel when it was Jesus Himself who said that all the various branches are grafted into Him. Please avoid the mistake of thinking that I'm a believer in replacement theology. I am not.

Jhn 15:5 KJV - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:1 KJV - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Generally speaking, where it's true that some enjoy trying to pit scripture against scripture, I try to take it all in contextually and see what portrait it all paints. Jesus' words are the foundational understanding I apply to all other verses that may intellectually seem to be contradictory. So, where in your reference does it say that we are grafted into Israel rather than Christ?

"Forewarned" are we about this abuse of the "hard to understand" content of Paul in his letters. For example, when Paul speaks of the gentiles who have "come in" to "all Israel", he uses two words "Gentile believers", those who abuse Paul's content think that Paul says they are still gentiles. Identify how Paul uses the word gentile, he is talking about the origin, not the current state of the believer that the passage in Romans declares that they are now part of "all Israel".

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. (2 Peter 3:13-17 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Well, in your estimation, I must be one of those who struggles with understanding what Paul said, even though I'm likely old enough to be your pappy. You also seem to be assuming that I'm "lawless," even though I have consistently stated that the Law Giver indwells us all who are in Christ Jesus, and who therefore writes His Law in our hearts, just as is openly and consistently proclaimed throughout scripture. You are one of those who points at the letter that kills, and that Peter said was and is a burden they and their forefathers could not bear.

By all means, boy, you can try to live by the letter as best you can. You have that freedom. As for me, I will live by the Spirit, and walk by faith. With His Law written in my heart, the Law is much more profound, deeper, and more powerful than mere words written on paper and stone tablets. With the word of God emblazened within our hearts and His Seal branded upon us, I am content and grateful with all that He gives over to me in His Hand, even when it involves being taken out to the wood shed.

Jr

 

[guevaraj]

I appreciate your zeal, but the scriptures do not support your assertion regarding the Nature of God's creation, and the makeup of God's Day, in my view. At least, certainly not the ones I posted. I hope you might consider these words and provide Scriptural evidence, more than one sentence from the NIV.

Brother, let’s try a different approach with the word-for-word translation of the King James Version. A single word is given in English to each word in the original language, so you know that “evening” is the same word in the original in the two passages below. Let's compare two pieces of Scripture to understand what is “revealed” in Genesis. The following is a complete Sabbath in Israel, but the passage I quote later begins the same but ends differently.

It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath. (Leviticus 23:32 NKJV)​

Comparing both passages above and below, they start the same but end differently. Above, evening to evening is a complete Sabbath in Israel, but below we only have half a Sabbath, the first half from evening to morning that we Seventh-day Adventist weekly experience as the “night” part of the Sabbath. Can you see that the first day is “revealed” to end with the half day period that God called “night”? After having started with the half day period that God called “day” with God saying "Let there be light", which here after the first day in Genesis is part of the second day from morning until evening.

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. (Genesis 1:5 NKJV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Studyman]

If God gave His commandments, His statutes, and His laws to Abraham, why did Moses need to go up on Mount Sinai?

Remember what God said about Abraham.

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

If God gave His commandments, His statutes, and His laws to Abraham, why did Moses need to go up on Mount Sinai?

Also, there is no "IF" God gave His Statutes, His Laws and His Commandments to Abraham. It is written that Abraham obeyed God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws, that God knew Abraham would teach this "Way of the Lord" to his Children, and when they had forgotten them, because of the bondage of Egypt, God had His Servant Moses come to Him, and God wrote His Commandments, Laws, and Statutes on tables of Stone.

And when they broke them, God had His Servant Moses come back to Him, where God wrote on different tables of Stone, the SAME Words that were on the First Tables. And this Same God promised of a time when HIS Laws, Commandments, and Statutes that were written on Stone Tablets would someday be written on the hearts of His People.

 

[Studyman]

Brother, let’s try a different approach with the word-for-word translation of the King James Version. A single word is given in English to each word in the original language, so you know that “evening” is the same word in the original in the two passages below. Let's compare two pieces of Scripture to understand what is “revealed” in Genesis. The following is a complete Sabbath in Israel, but the passage I quote later begins the same but ends differently.

It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath. (Leviticus 23:32 NKJV)​

Comparing both passages above and below, they start the same but end differently. Above, evening to evening is a complete Sabbath in Israel, but below we only have half a Sabbath, the first half from evening to morning that we Seventh-day Adventist weekly experience as the “night” part of the Sabbath. Can you see that the first day is “revealed” to end with the half day period that God called “night”? After having started with the half day period that God called “day” with God saying "Let there be light", which here after the first day in Genesis is part of the second day from morning until evening.

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. (Genesis 1:5 NKJV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I see them as saying the same thing. A day of God is Evening to Evening. The assertion that God gave Israel a different Sabbath than what He created in the beginning is not supported anywhere by Holy Scriptures. In fact the very Sabbath Commandment was based/ founded on the Sabbath created by God in the beginning.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

" from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath"

"So the evening and the morning were the first day"

I'm sorry my friend. I think you are adding things to God's Word that are not there.

I also see Eve as being created a mortal, not immortal as you teach.. I also see six days of Labor first, then rest. I also see God created the earth in darkness first, then brought the light. I see unbelief first, then belief. Sin first, then repentance. Ignorance first, then knowledge.

I'm sorry my friend, after examining many Holy Scriptures of the most Holy God, your assertions can not be supported, in my view.

thanks for the discussions my friend. May God lead us all into HIS Truth.

 

[Bob S]

The plan of salvation for mankind was planned before the foundation of this Earth. I have the Holy Writ that gives me the events of God's Plan leading up to the second coming of Jesus and when He comes and takes us home. Lets do some ifs.
If Israel had been able to keep the laws God gave them at Sinai would Jesus have had to leave His home in Heaven to come to this Earth to save Israel and all mankind from our degradation?
If all the laws God gave Israel could have been kept could they have saved even one Israelite? Is there any saving power in the Law? Of course not and God knew that Israel would fail. That was part of the Plan. The Law then did become a yoke. Acts 15:10
If the shedding of Blood is the only way to atone for our sins and the plan was for Jesus to be the only true sacrifice for the remission of sin why are some so hung up on not accepting His gift of freedom from the yoke of the Law? Gal 5
If Jesus came to give Israel life why would He again put Israel under the yoke of Laws that could only condemn and not give life?

If the Sinai covenant was an "if" covenant how could the laws of that covenant be everlasting when the covenant was broken and became void?

 

[guevaraj]

I see them as saying the same thing. A day of God is Evening to Evening. The assertion that God gave Israel a different Sabbath than what He created in the beginning is not supported anywhere by Holy Scriptures. In fact the very Sabbath Commandment was based/ founded on the Sabbath created by God in the beginning.

Brother, what we are learning is what it means for God to make "holy" a time. When God set apart the seventh day in Eden "holy", He fixed it in the Eden time zone. The difference, from starting the Sabbath in Israel 10 hours before the seventh local day of the week, is what gives us the distance to Eden from Israel and falls on the International Date Line, revealing the place of our origin, where God taught us to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath, to keep it "holy".

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Studyman]

The plan of salvation for mankind was planned before the foundation of this Earth. I have the Holy Writ that gives me the events of God's Plan leading up to the second coming of Jesus and when He comes and takes us home. Lets do some ifs.
If Israel had been able to keep the laws God gave them at Sinai would Jesus have had to leave His home in Heaven to come to this Earth to save Israel and all mankind from our degradation?

Israel was already guilty of sin in Egypt. The Passover Lamb, which symbolized the Blood of Christ, was given for them while they were yet in sin (Egypt). So even before Israel rebelled against God after He took them out of Egypt, the Blood of Christ was shed for them Spiritually. Even if they had repented and obeyed like Caleb and Joshua and Abraham did, Jesus would still have had to come from heaven to earth to fulfill the promise of the Passover for Abraham's, Abel's and Noah's sin regardless of Israel's rebellion to Him.

"IF" Jesus had not come to fulfill HIS Role as the Passover Lamb, Abraham's sins could not have been cleansed.

If all the laws God gave Israel could have been kept could they have saved even one Israelite? Is there any saving power in the Law? Of course not and God knew that Israel would fail. That was part of the Plan. The Law then did become a yoke. Acts 15:10

That is a popular religion that is promoted in the religions of this land. But it omits so much that is written. Caleb and Joshua were faithful. And so was Zachariah and Simeon and Anna. So were all the faithful examples of the Bible. Did they slip and fall as all children do, yes. But they didn't create their own religion, despise and pollute God's Sabbaths, create their own images of God in the likeness of some handsome man or a golden calf. They Lived, as Jesus instructed, by Every Word of God. As faithful servants. As children of obedience.

God's Laws were not a Yoke of Bondage to these faithful examples in the Holy Scriptures. Jesus never once implied that God's Commandments were somehow a "Yoke of Bondage" placed on the necks of men. He said to be perfect even as His father was perfect. This same Christ as the Word of God told Israel His Commandments were right there for them, and that they most certainly could obey them, as Caleb and Joshua demonstrate in the Examples God had written for us.

So "IF" God placed laws impossible to obey, HE would not have told them they could obey them. Unless you believe God lied to them and deceived them.

If the shedding of Blood is the only way to atone for our sins and the plan was for Jesus to be the only true sacrifice for the remission of sin why are some so hung up on not accepting His gift of freedom from the yoke of the Law? Gal 5

Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

It is a religious deception to preach that before we accepted the Christ of the Bible as our savior, we were "Entangled with God's Laws". It is a cleaver deception, but untrue just the same. The Yoke of Bondage we were entangled in are the deceptions and religions of the World. Doctrine and traditions of men, not the Word's of the Holy Christ.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

It is not God's Laws and instructions that plague mankind, it is listening to all the "other" voices in the garden, and choosing them over God's.

When a man denies himself, and follows the Christ of the Bible in Faith/belief as instructed, He frees us from these deceptions, He doesn't free us from His own instructions.. At least not the Christ of the Bible.

Jn. 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If Jesus came to give Israel life why would He again put Israel under the yoke of Laws that could only condemn and not give life?

It wasn't the Law that caused Israel to need repentance and forgiveness, or the need to be saved from Egypt. It was their ignorance of God's Ways, that caused them to cry out in Egypt, and their rejection of God's ways which caused their fall.

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Who are the righteous in this Christ's eyes??

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Did Zacharias need repentance, or had He already denied himself, and the religions he was born into, and was following the Word of God which became Flesh?

Was the Spirit of Christ lying to us through Luke?

Did this same Christ lie to us in the Law and Prophets?

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Word of God which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Where is the Yoke of Bondage you speak of?

If the Sinai covenant was an "if" covenant how could the laws of that covenant be everlasting when the covenant was broken and became void?

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Sinai covenant) and from fornication,(Sinai covenant) and from things strangled, (Sinai covenant) and from blood. (Sinai covenant)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, (Sinai covenant) being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

So "IF" the entire Word's of Moses is considered by God to be the Sinai covenant, that you preach to the world has become Void, then why are the disciples directing the Gentiles to "ABSTAIN" for breaking them, and directing the Gentiles to go learn from Moses, the Servant of God?

On the Other hand, "if" the Word's of the Christ are true regarding what HE Himself defines HIS NEW Covenant as, and the only Covenant that became obsolete was the Covenant God made with Levi on Israels behalf, a Covenant that dealt with 2 things #1. The administration of the Laws the Disciples directed the Gentiles to "KEEP" and learn about #2., the manner in which transgressions of these laws are forgiven, then it makes perfect sense why Peter would direct the New Converts to "KEEP" the Laws of Moses, but not follow religious Jews who were still promoting the Levitical Priesthood even though Jesus is our New High Priest.

It's too bad you can't see how the leaven of one lie, "God's Laws are the Yoke of Bondage that caused Israel's fall", leavens the entire lump. Infects every part of the mind, corrupts the very foundation of men's belief.

All because men have been convinced that God lied to Israel by telling them they could "keep" His Instructions they preach to the world are a "Yoke of Bondage" impossible to keep.

Much in the same way the serpent convinced Eve that God lied to her, and that God's Commandments made her Blind, and the only way for her to see, is to reject them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Abraham's Children had lost site of the Ways of God, and had forgotten God's Covenant with Abraham that Joseph would have taught them.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

So God Had His Laws written on Stone so they wouldn't forget them, and gave Levi a Priesthood who duties were to administer these Laws to the people.. Nowadays, HE writes these Laws on the hearts of His People, at least that is what the Christ of the Bible promised.

You can see how the whole 613 "Yoke of Bondage" falsehood flies in the Face of the God of Abraham can't you? What??? God shows HIS respect for Abraham's Children by placing 613 impossible Laws to keep on their necks, then slaughters them when they didn't keep them?

What a horrible thing to say or imply regarding the Great Merciful God of the Bible. The Scriptures do not teach or imply any such thing. It is truly an extension of the deception the serpent convinced Eve of.

Thank you for your answer. To be clear in my own understanding, are the commandments, statutes, and laws which were given to Abraham but never written down identical to all of those which Moses received from God (the ten on Mount Sinai as well as all of the other commandments recorded in the pentateuch)?

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for your answer. To be clear in my own understanding, are the commandments, statutes, and laws which were given to Abraham but never written down identical to all of those which Moses received from God (the ten on Mount Sinai as well as all of the other commandments recorded in the pentateuch)?

That's a good question. It is my understanding that there are 2 great commandments in the Law. Love God and Love thy neighbor. Jesus said the entire Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments.

I believe all of God's Laws are giving to define these two great commandments. How to Love the God of Abraham, and how to Love one another.

I find nothing in Scriptures which would suggest the Christ changed His mind on these two commands between the time Abraham obeyed them, and the time this same Christ gave them to Abraham's Children.

The only Law I can find that Abraham didn't have for certain, is the Covenant God made with Levi, regarding the "works" of atonement laws for forgiveness of sins, and the Priesthood Law giving the Levites exclusive rights to the possession of the book of the law for the administration of His Law, both exclusively given to Levi on Israel's behalf, and called the Levitical Priesthood in Hebrews.

Of a truth Abraham was justified "apart" from this Priesthood Law given to Levi on Israel's behalf. In fact, it was this Priesthood that was ADDED to God's Laws 430 years after Abraham obeyed, "til the Seed should come".

This is my understanding based on the Holy Scriptures available to me.

 

[guevaraj]

I'm sorry my friend, after examining many Holy Scriptures of the most Holy God, your assertions can not be supported, in my view.

Brother, there is a different word used in Exodus 20:11 than the one used in Genesis 1:1. They are not the same. The word translated as "made" in Exodus 20:11 means "prepared" and not "created" as in Genesis 1:1. "Prepared" as in the Abraham passage below.

So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare (asah) it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared (asah), and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. (Genesis 18:6-8 NIV)​

The word "made" in Exodus 20:11 is "asah" as previously translated as "prepare" and not "bara'" as below means "created". In six days the earth was "prepared" and not "created" during the creation week.

In the beginning God created (bara') the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I see them as saying the same thing. A day of God is Evening to Evening. The assertion that God gave Israel a different Sabbath than what He created in the beginning is not supported anywhere by Holy Scriptures. In fact the very Sabbath Commandment was based/ founded on the Sabbath created by God in the beginning.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

" from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath"

"So the evening and the morning were the first day"

I'm sorry my friend. I think you are adding things to God's Word that are not there.

I also see Eve as being created a mortal, not immortal as you teach.. I also see six days of Labor first, then rest. I also see God created the earth in darkness first, then brought the light. I see unbelief first, then belief. Sin first, then repentance. Ignorance first, then knowledge.

I'm sorry my friend, after examining many Holy Scriptures of the most Holy God, your assertions can not be supported, in my view.

thanks for the discussions my friend. May God lead us all into HIS Truth.

Yes thanks for sharing. This is the biblical definition of what a day is in God's time (not mans). According to the scrptures a day in Gods time is from evening to evening (not morning to evening). Morning to evening is mans time not God's and is not a biblical teaching.

 

[guevaraj]

Yes thanks for sharing. This is the biblical definition of what a day is in God's time (not mans). According to the scrptures a day in Gods time is from evening to evening (not morning to evening). Morning to evening is mans time not God's and is not a biblical teaching.

Brother, happy Sabbath! We know that the Sabbath in Israel is from "evening" to "evening" and that this period has two parts divided by a morning that God called "day" and "night" below.

God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day. (Genesis 1:5 NIV)​

How would you say the beginning and end of the 12-hour period that God called "day" above if I give you the period that God called "night" from evening to morning? Is it not the mirrored half from morning to evening?

Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world's light. (John 11:9 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge