THE SABBATH TRUTH!

[Studyman]

This is what the verse is telling us: 11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood – and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood – why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

There was no separate covenant given to the Levites, that is complete bunk and renders your remarks in the remainder of your post untrue.

Bunk to you, and also bunk to the Pharisees who didn't believe God in this matter either.

But how can you say there was no Covenant with Levi given what God Himself says?

Num. 8:13 And thou shalt set the Levites before Aaron, and before his sons, and offer them for an offering unto the LORD.

14 Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Mal. 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

This is what I mean BS. You preach there is no separate Covenant with Levi. But the Christ of the Bible clearly says here, and many more places, that God separated Levi from the rest of Israel, unto Himself, and Gave Him a Priesthood covenant, on Israel's behalf.

• Malachi 2:8 (OJB) But ye are departed out of HaDerech; ye have caused rabbim to fall into a michshol (stumbling block) at the torah (teaching); ye have corrupted the Brit of Levi saith Hashem Tzva’os.
  
  
• New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NRSA) But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the Lord of hosts,
  
  
• New Revised Standard
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NRS) But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the Lord of hosts,
  
  
• New Living Translation
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NLT) But you priests have left God’s paths. Your instructions have caused many to stumble into sin. You have corrupted the covenant I made with the Levites,” says the LORD of Heaven’s Armies.
  
  
• New King James Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NKJV) But you have departed from the way; You have caused many to stumble at the law. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi," Says the Lord of hosts.
  
  
• New International Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NIV) But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi,” says the LORD Almighty.
  
  
• New International Reader's Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NIRV) But you have turned away from the right path. Your teaching has caused many people to trip and fall. You have broken my covenant with Levi," says the LORD who rules over all.
  
  
• New Century Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NCV) But you priests have stopped obeying me. With your teachings you have caused many people to do wrong. You have broken the agreement with the tribe of Levi!" says the Lord All-Powerful.
  
  
• New American Standard Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (NAS) "But as for you, you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by the instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi," says the LORD of hosts.
  
  
• The Message Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (MSG) But you priests have abandoned the way of priests. Your teaching has messed up many lives. You have corrupted the covenant of priest Levi. God-of-the-Angel-Armies says so.
  
  
• Septuagint Bible w/ Apocrypha
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachias 2:8 (LXX) But ye have turned aside from the way, and caused many to fail in the law: ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord Almighty.
  
  
• Lexham English Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (LEB) But you, you have turned from the way; you have caused many to stumble by [your] instruction; you have ruined the covenant of Levi," says Yahweh of hosts.
  
  
• King James Version w/ Apocrypha
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (KJVA) But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
  
  
• King James Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (KJV) But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
  
  
• Jubilee Bible 2000
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (JUB) But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble in the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, said the LORD of the hosts.
  
  
• Hebrew Names Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (HNV) But you have turned aside out of the way. You have caused many to stumble in the law. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi," says the LORD of Hosts.
  
  
• GOD'S WORD Translation
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (GW) "But you have turned from the [correct] path and caused many to stumble over my teachings. You have corrupted the promise made to Levi," says the LORD of Armies.
  
  
• Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (GNTA) "But now you priests have turned away from the right path. Your teaching has led many to do wrong. You have broken the covenant I made with you.
  
  
• Good News Translation
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (GNT) "But now you priests have turned away from the right path. Your teaching has led many to do wrong. You have broken the covenant I made with you.
  
  
• English Standard Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (ESV) But you have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of hosts,
  
  
• The Darby Translation
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (DBY) But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith Jehovah of hosts.
  
  
• Holman Christian Standard Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (CSB) "You, on the other hand, have turned from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have violated the covenant of Levi," says the Lord of Hosts.
  
  
• The Complete Jewish Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (CJB) But you turned away from the path, you caused many to fail in the Torah, you corrupted the covenant of Levi," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot.
  
  
• Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (CEBA) But you have turned from the path. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of heavenly forces.
  
  
• Common English Bible
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (CEB) But you have turned from the path. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of heavenly forces.
  
  
• The Bible in Basic English
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (BBE) But you are turned out of the way; you have made the law hard for numbers of people; you have made the agreement of Levi of no value, says the Lord of armies.
  
  
• American Standard Version
  Chapter Parallel
  Malachi 2:8 (ASV) But ye are turned aside out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble in the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith Jehovah of hosts.

So I humbly submit to you that the Word of God which became flesh, did make an exclusive Covenant with Levi, and it was Separate from God's Commandments, Statutes, and Laws He gave to Abraham's Children.

And it pertained to the Priesthood duties including administration of God's Laws, and to provide atonement "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins.

In the New Covenant, the manner in which these Priesthood duties were administered was to change. No longer was Levi to Administer God's Laws, and no longer was Levi to provide for the Atonement of Sins, Jesus took over these Priesthood duties and became the High Priest Himself as prophesied in the Law and Prophets.

But the Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the Seed, so they were still bewitching new converts by telling them they must follow the "Works of the Law" of atonement for justification. Paul fought with them throughout the NT, teaching that the "Works of the Law" they were promoting, did not justify a man. But Faith in the SEED who brought with Him a New and better way for the administration of God's Laws, and new and better way to atone for the sins of His People.

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for your brusque appraisal of Paul. I now understand that you do not believe that all scripture, including Paul's epistles, is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Like most legalists it is quite evident that you have chosen to cherrypick the scriptures that suit your purposes.

Thank you for your thoughtful, spirit filled reply.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Generally speaking:

Exo 31:13 KJV - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Who? Israel, not Gentiles.

Eze 20:12 KJV - Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.

Who? Israel, not Gentiles, for I am not of the generations of Israel.

Eze 20:20 KJV - And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Who? Israel.....spoken directly and mistakenly addressed to Israel, not the Gentiles as would have been evidenced through the instructions from the apostles to us Gentiles. Who was the apostle to the Gentiles? Paul.

Peter also had SOME dealings with the Gentile churches, but Peter did not suffer through blood, sweat and tears as did Paul for the Gentile churches.

So, none of that is to say the sabbaths have been done away with, contrary to the false accusations against those who do not demand adherence to such. Lacking conformity to the ritualistic observance of sabbaths which includes that of the seventh day, does not demand a conclusion for us believing it/they have been done away with. We are not empowered to do away with anything from the biblical texts. Any accusation to the contrary is nothing but falsehoods uttered from the lips of self-made liars (or, rather, typing fingers in this case)! I would hope that nobody here falls headlong into that error.

We in Christ don't need ritualistic observances to know the Lord is God, but those stiff-necked Jews certainly needed them, and they STILL continued to return to idolatry and fornication with other nations. That is evident from the very words inspired by the Lord through Ezekiel in the above verses and many other passages throughout.

Jr

 

[Major1]

But the Holy Scriptures I posted were from HIM. Inspired by HIM. Why will you not even engage in them?



This one sentence doesn't reveal the message of Paul to the Ephesians. Look what happens to the message when we include the Context.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.

There are "Works" necessary for our Salvation. Great Selfless Loving Works. It's just that these Works are not ours, they are HIS.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What are these Work's foreordained that we should walk in them? We know it isn't the "works" we lived in, in times past when we were "Children of Disobedience". So we are saved unto Good Works. What are they?

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So we know the Works the Christ walked in are "Good", even perfect Works, and we are to walk in them. Did Jesus walk in the Works foreordained by His Father that HE should walk in them?



How can you understand Paul by omitting the very context of His teaching?



4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Again, no one is saying they did something to make the Christ sacrifice Himself for them. It is by HIS Mercy that we are saved. But it is Biblical Fact that not Everyone is given this gift of Mercy. The Holy Scriptures I posted and asked questions about tells us we have a part to play in our own salvation.

There is no Mercy without Repentance.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

2 9Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Without Repentance there is no Mercy. Without self denial, there is no repentance. Without humility there is no self denial. Without the Gospel, there is no humility. Without the Word of God there is no Gospel.

We will most likely never agree. But these conversations are still good to have among men.

THAT is a lot of coping and pasting to prove nothing.

Ephesians 2:8-9 still stands as the one and only way that God save men.

I do agree with you that a saved man must repent. If not then he is still in his sin.

Without repentance, there is no merit for God’s mercy. God cannot work in a person that takes sin as his or her lifestyle. You can be a prayer warrior. You can be reading your Bible. You can be working for God. But once the mercy of God is not in you, the result is always obstacle and shame.

However.......getting saved is 100% God because we have nothing to do with it. God even gives us the Faith to believe in Him.

 

[Major1]

This reminds of my mother who, in her way, kept various manmade Sabbath regulations. At some point the legalists in our church determined that, although it would be a sin for anyone to cook a meal on the Sabbath, it would be perfectly fine to eat out in a restaurant. That would save the believer from sinning by kindling a kitchen fire on the Sabbath and it was not a problem for the restaurant workers because they were not Christians anyhow (which, of course, is a cruel stereotype).

As a young adult and as a very young Christian I confronted her about this apparent hypocrisy, but to no avail. I then looked forward to enjoying the weekly restaurant outing, knowing that I was not bound to the Law.

That is like paying someone to kill your neighbors barking dog. When the dog is dead, we can say......"I didn't kill him".

YES we did!

 

[Major1]

The Sabbath that I speak of is created by the Christ of the Bible for the benefit of His People. At least this is what HE says. And to be honest, I believe Him. I have never posted one sermon, one quote, one doctrine of SDA. The questions I asked were about God/Christ's Words.




Not sure what you are talking about here. All I know is it isn't about the Holy Scriptures I posted and asked you questions about.

And God's Word does not say to Worship Him on the Sabbath/Saturday.

Allow me to quote exactly God's Word on this subject from Exodus 20:8-11.....
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

"holy"—means, literally, "set apart." It does NOT mean to attend any kind of services on the Sabbath.

Now we all can argue this every say but the facts are that "Church ATTENDANCE ON THE SABBATH" is not found in the Bible!

That is the bottom line whether you are an SDA or not.

The Lonesome Dove story was to show you that if you post, and believe and follow the doctrines of a church which is not Biblical, then YOU would be in the same position as they are.

 

[guevaraj]

Now we all can argue this every say but the facts are that "Church ATTENDANCE ON THE SABBATH" is not found in the Bible!

Brother, what about this passage?

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked. (Luke 4:16-22 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

Generally speaking:
Exo 31:13 KJV - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Who? Israel, not Gentiles.

Brother, we who have "come in" to the "part" of Israel that accepted Jesus are no longer gentiles but "part" of "all Israel" as revealed in Romans below:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:25-32 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[bbbbbbb]

My issue is with religious philosophies that the Scriptures don't seem to promote. Namely, the preaching regarding the New Covenant of the Christ of the Bible, and the implication that God's Sabbaths became obsolete through it.

There may be some verse somewhere to support the elimination of God's Sabbath, but it was not through the New Covenant, that is, the Christ's New Covenant defined in Jer. 31 and again in Heb. 7-10.

This is why I post His Definition of His New Covenant and strive to discuss them.

Jesus said HIS Father sent Him to give us HIS Father's Words.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Jesus obeyed His Fathers Commandment and gave us His Father's Words.

Jesus also said HE and His Father are One. So to divide them by implying that God's Words and Jesus Words are different seems non-Biblical to me.

When asked which Commandments to keep Jesus pointed to His Fathers Commandments that the Christ gave us when He was the Word of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He didn't name the First and Greatest, or His Commandment against images of God in the likeness of men, or not to hate your brother in your heart, but I believe they were implied?

These are the Word's of the Christ Himself?



No, I believe them all. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every word which proceeds from the mouth of God". It's hard to imagine that Jesus is deceiving me by telling me something that isn't truth. That is why I post HIS Word's and ask questions.

Jesus was one of those Sabbath observers, and HE said His Sabbath was made for man. Those are His Word's, not conjured up by me. We may disagree about what HE means, but the Word's are HIS, not mine.

Just saying.

I neither threatened, nor judged you. If you were stung, it was by Paul's Words, not mine.

I simply pointed out that Paul is teaching Gentiles that the Law and Prophets were written for them. That they should not be ignorant of this fact, especially those who think they stand.
I am not aware of any scriptures you posted which makes my understanding of Paul's Words here untrue or wrong. I may have missed something so feel free to re-post the scriptures which proven me wrong. And thank you for the correction.

Who were the two groups of people? What Law, what "wall of Hostility" did God create that divided them?

It would be great if you could find the Law of God that divided Jew and Gentile. How does the Christ's Sabbath, that He said was made for man, cause a "wall of hostility" between Jew and Gentile? I have always wondered about some of the modern interpretations of these scriptures.

I do believe Jesus when HE said the mainstream preachers of His time taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, and I know they created laws which divided Jews from Gentiles that God didn't make. These laws of man, taught as God's Law for centuries, were against us. But I can not find a single Law of God which caused a "Hostile Wall" which divided Jew and Gentile. Not one which taught that Gentiles were "without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, without God and without Hope in the world". These were the Laws of the Circumcision that Jesus called the commandments of men.

There is a lot to say about this, but I think Peter in Acts 15 dispels the teaching that God's Laws were taken out of the way.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (God's Law) and from fornication, (God's Law) and from things strangled, (God's Law) and from blood. (God's Law)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

These Word's of Peter, and modern religious doctrines contradict each other here. Peter turned the Gentiles away from religious men who claimed to be furthering the Law of Moses. But Peter knew their doctrines was false, so he directed the Gentiles away from these preachers and directly towards the Laws of God. In this way these Gentiles would learn directly from Moses, and not from religious men who were not in sync with the Apostles.

This is the same instruction Jesus gave His Disciples in Matt. 23:

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

It is no wonder that Peter sent the Gentiles to learn directly from Moses.

Jesus did many things. One of the greatest things HE did was expose the mainstream religion of His Time of promoting religious doctrines and traditions of religious men who had corrupted His Gospel. Exposing their man made religious traditions ultimately cost Him His Life. He was killed because He dared question the mainstream preachers of His time.

He could have called on His Father who would have wiped these self righteous preachers off the planet, but HE didn't. He offered Himself to God by allowed these fraudsters to ridicule Him, call him a liar, torture Him and murder Him as a sacrifice to atone for my past transgressions.

When asked about the sign of the times and the future He told His Disciples to "take Heed" of one thing. Not Atheists, not Islam, not drug dealers. No, when asked what to watch for in the future, Here is what HE warned of.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is only one religion in the land today that fit's this description. I think this is why we are told to "test the spirits" to see if they are of the Word of God, or religious men.

I did not intend to frighten you. Only engage in a discussion about the difference between doctrines. I look forward to you answering my questions, and discussing the doctrines promoted in modern religions. After all, if it wasn't for the understanding men have regarding different winds of doctrines, we would all be Catholic.

Actually, we would all be orthodox, as well as catholic, but that is another discussion.

My question to you is whether or not you believe the only the weekly Sabbath remains in effect or if you believe that all of God's Sabbaths are still in effect. Thank you.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Brother, we who have "come in" to the "part" of Israel that accepted Jesus are no longer gentiles but "part" of "all Israel" as revealed in Romans below:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:25-32 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Well, there's just one problem with such a loose interpretational methodology:

Rom 11:19 KJV - Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 KJV - Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 KJV - For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 KJV - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 KJV - And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 KJV - For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

So, I do not see that Paul was so taken by the idea that we are just as the Jews, for they are the NATURAL branches, and we, the WILD branches who were grafted into THEIR NATURAL tree.

Jesus Himself put for the distinction:

Mat 15:24 KJV - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 KJV - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 KJV - But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Mat 15:27 KJV - And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 KJV - Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

A Gentile woman was not freely offered the healing for her Gentile daughter until she demonstrated faith that the Jews were so lacking, and Jesus then honored her request in spite of His not having come but for the Jews.

Jhn 15:5 KJV - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So, in these analogies, we see that when we were grafted in, we did not become as the Jewish branches without distinction, for we are still considered "wild" by nature in relation to Israel.

So, where it is true that in Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile, slave nor freeman, etc., etc., where the offer for salvation is concerned to those who have faith and call upon His name, that same Lord and His apostles still spoke and acted in a manner that showed the clear distinction.

Even the great city of God will in eternity portray the distinction:

Rev 21:12 KJV - And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

We have no name in and of ourselves to be written upon any gate in that city, which, to some, seems unfair, thus driving them to concoct all manner of denials for the distinction. We have no reason to be jealous, for we will receive great rewards for our faithfulness in the midst of a time when Israel was in total rejection of the Lord. What matters is that the Lord is magnified and lifted up in all our hearts.

Jr

 

[guevaraj]

Well, there's just one problem with such a loose interpretational methodology

Brother, I have shared an "it is written" as Jesus did to Satan: It is written that we who have "come in" are part of "all Israel". It is you who are trying to loosely interpret Paul to contradict what is written in Romans 11:25 to 32. "Forewarned" are we about this abuse of the "hard to understand" content of Paul in his letters. For example, when Paul speaks of the gentiles who have "come in" to "all Israel", he uses two words "Gentile believers", those who abuse Paul's content think that Paul says they are still gentiles. Identify how Paul uses the word gentile, he is talking about the origin, not the current state of the believer that the passage in Romans declares that they are now part of "all Israel".

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. (2 Peter 3:13-17 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Studyman]

Actually, we would all be orthodox, as well as catholic, but that is another discussion.

My question to you is whether or not you believe the only the weekly Sabbath remains in effect or if you believe that all of God's Sabbaths are still in effect. Thank you.

I believe in the Word's of the Christ of the Bible. All of them. Both as the Word of God who created all things, who knew, and was known by Abraham, as well as HIS Words when He became Flesh and Blood, in the person of Jesus.

I believe He walked the Perfect Path, created by Him for man.

This would also include HIS Teaching of the greatest threat and danger to His people.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Here His Disciples are asking Him about the future. What to look out for.

Jesus could have warned of Atheists, or Islam, or Jews or drug pushers, or even sinners. He could have warned about Legalists, or Sabbath keepers, a favorite boogy man of "many" religious men of this world.

But He didn't. When asked about the future, the Christ Jesus warned of one particular group of people. A very specific religious group.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So according to Jesus, the greatest threat to a true believer in the last days, is the teaching of "MANY" Christians. There is no other group of "Many" on this planet that fits HIS Description here. And this teaching aligns itself with a theme through out the Bible, in that it wasn't the Pagans or Gentiles who killed the Prophets and Jesus and stoned Stephen to death. It was those men who come in God's Name, from Stephen who was murdered by the mainstream God of Abraham preaching men of his time, to Abel who was murdered by his "christian" brother.

One such deception that I have addressed recently, is the modern christian doctrine teaching that after God saved Israel from the Yoke of Bondage of Egypt, HE placed on their necks 613 Laws so egregious it was impossible to obey them, but this same Christ lied to them by telling them they could obey them. Then He sent Prophets to also Lie to Israel by continuing to tell them to obey God, that "MANY" who come in His NAME today, preach to the world was impossible. Then, according to this doctrine, when they didn't obey this Christ's Laws that "many" teach are impossible to obey, He slaughtered them by the thousands anyway.

This doctrine is a false doctrine, of course. There was never placed on the necks of even one of the men who came out of Egypt, 613 Laws. And it is also a Lie, a deception, to preach these men were incapable of following the instructions this same Christ gave them for their good. As the examples of Caleb, Rehab, Zachariahs, Simeon, Anna and all the examples of the Faithful in the Holy Scriptures show us.

And yet the entire foundation of "many" religious franchises today is founded on this deception. Everything is infected by this implication/ deception that God Lied to His People. And it causes many to turn away from the God of the Bible and towards religions which teach for doctrines the Commandments of men..

Just as Eve did when the serpent also convinced her God was a Liar.

So this is why I spend my time trying to have discussions with those who "come in His Name" about these many deceitful religious doctrines, as opposed to spending time promoting this Law or that Feast.

Doctrines regarding who were the "Them of old time" in Matt. 5, how did the Christ define His own New Covenant, whose Laws are against us, has the Christ fulfilled "all" things yet, is HE the Same God that gave Abraham Laws, Commandments, Statutes, etc.?

If a person belongs to a religious organization that is teaching others that the Christ Lied to His People, they have already lost the entire meaning of Passover whether they claim to observe it or not..

So you would think religious men would be thankful and anxious to seek out and find these deceptions and doctrines of men that Jesus warned about so many times in His Word. To expose them and help save the brethren from them. But that isn't the case is it bbbbbbb.

Many religious Men who come in Christ's name don't want to find these deceptions Jesus said were there at all. They want to hide them from the Light. If you want to make enemies just point out a religious doctrine or tradition that isn't from the God of the Bible. You might read the story of the prophets, or Jesus and Stephen to see how religious men appreciate those who point out doctrines that are not from the Holy Scriptures.

Nevertheless, Jesus Loved us by showing us, not only the good things of the kingdom, but the deceptions being taught by the mainstream religions of His time as well..

Let's bring these popular doctrines to the light to see if they are wrought in God or not. Then, with our foundation sure, we can move on to the reason for the Laws and Statutes that the Christ wrote "For our sake's, no doubt".

 

[Studyman]

And God's Word does not say to Worship Him on the Sabbath/Saturday.

Allow me to quote exactly God's Word on this subject from Exodus 20:8-11.....
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

"holy"—means, literally, "set apart." It does NOT mean to attend any kind of services on the Sabbath.

Setting apart His Sabbath as Holy "IS" Worshiping God in the manner in which HE defines. I agree that there is no longer a command to find a Levite Priest, or any preacher, to read the Bible to us on the Sabbath Days, as was the case in the Old Priesthood Covenant.

As Jesus Promised, "We shall all know the Lord". Certainly in the world I was born into this is the case. His Word can by found in almost every home, every store, on the Web. For those seeking the Kingdom of Heaven, The Christ has certainly fulfilled the Promise HE gave us in Jer. 31.

Now we all can argue this every say but the facts are that "Church ATTENDANCE ON THE SABBATH" is not found in the Bible! That is the bottom line whether you are an SDA or not.

I agree 100%. We are in the New Covenant, no longer are we to receive God's Laws exclusively through the Levitical Priesthood taught in a temple made of stone.

The "Seat of Moses" now dwells in our home, in our hearts. We can now follow the instructions of the Lord's Christ, "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do", without the distraction of corrupt preachers and priests. Just the Christ Jesus of the Bible and me.

The Lonesome Dove story was to show you that if you post, and believe and follow the doctrines of a church which is not Biblical, then YOU would be in the same position as they are.

If you can find a doctrine that I am espousing that goes against the Christ of the Bible, please show me. But if I am promoting Word's of God which expose religious traditions of yours that are non-Biblical, please don't make the mistake of the mainstream preachers of Stephen's time in your heart.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe in the Word's of the Christ of the Bible. All of them. Both as the Word of God who created all things, who knew, and was known by Abraham, as well as HIS Words when He became Flesh and Blood, in the person of Jesus.

I believe He walked the Perfect Path, created by Him for man.

This would also include HIS Teaching of the greatest threat and danger to His people.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Here His Disciples are asking Him about the future. What to look out for.

Jesus could have warned of Atheists, or Islam, or Jews or drug pushers, or even sinners. He could have warned about Legalists, or Sabbath keepers, a favorite boogy man of "many" religious men of this world.

But He didn't. When asked about the future, the Christ Jesus warned of one particular group of people. A very specific religious group.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So according to Jesus, the greatest threat to a true believer in the last days, is the teaching of "MANY" Christians. There is no other group of "Many" on this planet that fits HIS Description here. And this teaching aligns itself with a theme through out the Bible, in that it wasn't the Pagans or Gentiles who killed the Prophets and Jesus and stoned Stephen to death. It was those men who come in God's Name, from Stephen who was murdered by the mainstream God of Abraham preaching men of his time, to Abel who was murdered by his "christian" brother.

One such deception that I have addressed recently, is the modern christian doctrine teaching that after God saved Israel from the Yoke of Bondage of Egypt, HE placed on their necks 613 Laws so egregious it was impossible to obey them, but this same Christ lied to them by telling them they could obey them. Then He sent Prophets to also Lie to Israel by continuing to tell them to obey God, that "MANY" who come in His NAME today, preach to the world was impossible. Then, according to this doctrine, when they didn't obey this Christ's Laws that "many" teach are impossible to obey, He slaughtered them by the thousands anyway.

This doctrine is a false doctrine, of course. There was never placed on the necks of even one of the men who came out of Egypt, 613 Laws. And it is also a Lie, a deception, to preach these men were incapable of following the instructions this same Christ gave them for their good. As the examples of Caleb, Rehab, Zachariahs, Simeon, Anna and all the examples of the Faithful in the Holy Scriptures show us.

And yet the entire foundation of "many" religious franchises today is founded on this deception. Everything is infected by this implication/ deception that God Lied to His People. And it causes many to turn away from the God of the Bible and towards religions which teach for doctrines the Commandments of men..

Just as Eve did when the serpent also convinced her God was a Liar.

So this is why I spend my time trying to have discussions with those who "come in His Name" about these many deceitful religious doctrines, as opposed to spending time promoting this Law or that Feast.

Doctrines regarding who were the "Them of old time" in Matt. 5, how did the Christ define His own New Covenant, whose Laws are against us, has the Christ fulfilled "all" things yet, is HE the Same God that gave Abraham Laws, Commandments, Statutes, etc.?

If a person belongs to a religious organization that is teaching others that the Christ Lied to His People, they have already lost the entire meaning of Passover whether they claim to observe it or not..

So you would think religious men would be thankful and anxious to seek out and find these deceptions and doctrines of men that Jesus warned about so many times in His Word. To expose them and help save the brethren from them. But that isn't the case is it bbbbbbb.

Many religious Men who come in Christ's name don't want to find these deceptions Jesus said were there at all. They want to hide them from the Light. If you want to make enemies just point out a religious doctrine or tradition that isn't from the God of the Bible. You might read the story of the prophets, or Jesus and Stephen to see how religious men appreciate those who point out doctrines that are not from the Holy Scriptures.

Nevertheless, Jesus Loved us by showing us, not only the good things of the kingdom, but the deceptions being taught by the mainstream religions of His time as well..

Let's bring these popular doctrines to the light to see if they are wrought in God or not. Then, with our foundation sure, we can move on to the reason for the Laws and Statutes that the Christ wrote "For our sake's, no doubt".

I see that despite the prolixity of your post, you utterly failed to answer my simple and direct question. A simple yes or a no will suffice. For your reference, the question was, "whether or not you believe that only the weekly Sabbath remains in effect or if you believe that all of God's Sabbaths are still in effect.".

 

[Studyman]

I see that despite the prolixity of your post, you utterly failed to answer my simple and direct question. A simple yes or a no will suffice. For your reference, the question was, "whether or not you believe that only the weekly Sabbath remains in effect or if you believe that all of God's Sabbaths are still in effect.".

You haven't engaged in any of the replies I have made regarding your religious statements, as I have replied to you, nor have you answered any questions or points I have asked or made. Only to accuse me of belonging to a religious franchise that I do not belong to. Am I now to believe that suddenly you are interested in my belief? Or does your agenda lie elsewhere?

Elsewhere obviously.

As for the Feasts of the Christ, He made no distinction between them. Passover is Holy to HIM, and so is the Weekly Sabbath, at least according to the Christ of the Bible. He doesn't make a distinction between them, so because HE doesn't, neither do I. I am just glad Peter and the early believers didn't hold the same religious positions on the Law and Prophets as "Many" who come in Christ's name today. If they had, they would not have known when or what Pentecost was, and could not have been gathered on this Most Holy Day of the Christ, which was the first day of the modern church age, the Spiritual meaning for Pentecost in the first place.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You haven't engaged in any of the replies I have made regarding your religious statements, as I have replied to you, nor have you answered any questions or points I have asked or made. Only to accuse me of belonging to a religious franchise that I do not belong to. Am I now to believe that suddenly you are interested in my belief? Or does your agenda lie elsewhere?

Elsewhere obviously.

As for the Feasts of the Christ, He made no distinction between them. Passover is Holy to HIM, and so is the Weekly Sabbath, at least according to the Christ of the Bible. He doesn't make a distinction between them, so because HE doesn't, neither do I. I am just glad Peter and the early believers didn't hold the same religious positions on the Law and Prophets as "Many" who come in Christ's name today. If they had, they would not have known when or what Pentecost was, and could not have been gathered on this Most Holy Day of the Christ, which was the first day of the modern church age, the Spiritual meaning for Pentecost in the first place.

My "agenda" is to expose your religious hypocrisy. Beneath all your evasions and questions lurks the heart of a man who boasts in his weekly Sabbath observance, but ignores all of the actual Sabbaths God commanded in the Old Testament.

 

[Major1]

My "agenda" is to expose your religious hypocrisy. Beneath all your evasions and questions lurks the heart of a man who boasts in his weekly Sabbath observance, but ignores all of the actual Sabbaths God commanded in the Old Testament.

Agreed, and that was my point as well! All the bluster and words but as was once said in a TV commercial a long time ago......."Where's the Beef"?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed, and that was my point as well! All the bluster and words but as was once said in a TV commercial a long time ago......."Where's the Beef"?

Certainly the most humbling experience of a devout and religious person can have is to come to the stark realization that God is not in the least bit impressed with his devotion and religious works, counting them but rubbish. At that point the veil which lies so heavily on the mind is rent asunder and the light of the free gift of salvation is understood.

 

[guevaraj]

I have considered it some, thank you for asking. It is my understanding that there is a Sabbath Rest at the end of the age for God's Children.

Brother, once God removes sin from the universe, we will all rest from the misery it brings. You seem a good candidate to speak to about this new truth on the Sabbath, because you do not have the traditions of a church group to get in the way.

In the nature God created there is a theme. Life starts in darkness before the light. It was dark first, the Light came.

Themes as you describe can get in the way of listening to what God “reveals” with the first day in Genesis.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 NIV)​

Most people think God created everything in a week, when the Bible “reveals” with the first day starting with the light that there was a time before the week of creation. God has been creating before He prepared a home for us here on the earth in the week of creation.

Mortality come first, then immortality.

God made us immortal first than after Satan deceived Eve to rebel, God took away “the tree of life” so that we would not “live forever”. To listen to what God has “revealed” you must resist such assumption as this theme you see that can blind you to what is “revealed”.

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 NIV)​

We are a child first, then adult.

Adam and Eve were made adults, they were never children as were born to them Cain and Abel. General assumptions can blind us to see what is “revealed”.

Evil and Sin come first, then repentance and righteousness.

I would say that righteousness came first by obeying God, but Satan caused sin to enter God’s creation when He deceived Eve to rebel against the instructions of God. Careful with your trust of themes blinding you to what is “revealed”.

God's Sabbath begins at the END of the Week, not the beginning. Six days of work come first, then the Sabbath Rest.

Agreed, but we should not make assumptions and actually listen to what God “reveals” in Genesis.

I believe God's Day was created from Evening to Evening with the dark coming first, then light.

Yes, that has been the assumption of the Jews based on God’s instructions about the Sabbath in Israel.

On Calvary it was important for HIS People to take Him down from the Cross before the Sun went down, and the New Day began.

Jesus was taken down due to the start of the Sabbath in Israel, but the Sabbath according to Genesis is not a day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden. In Israel the Sabbath falls between two days of the week as established in Genesis first day from first light to light again in the morning and confirmed by other parts of the Scriptures.

I have more I could say, but this pretty much sums up my understanding regarding when God's Day Starts.

A more careful view of what God “reveals” in Genesis shows there is more complexity to the Sabbath than the simplified view of it we have come to except. I think what has happened here is that when God has something complicated to tell us we do not listen assuming everything God “reveals” is simple.

I have spent some time, years ago, in the study of God's Day, and the above is what I recall. I have not spent a whole lot of time looking directly into your point of view here, to be fair.

I am hopeful that without loyalty to the traditions of a large group you may find it easier to see my point of view, but on the other hand I believe God prepared our church to see this truth in the future. It may be that no one else but Seventh-day Adventists are prepared to give value to this new depth to our understanding of the Sabbath. The question is, when does the “evening” fall in the first day in Genesis? When you resist assuming it falls at the beginning of the first day because of the Sabbath in Israel you can see that it falls in the middle of the first day from first light to light again in the morning. Morning ends the first day and begins the second day until the first Sabbath from morning to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Studyman]

My "agenda" is to expose your religious hypocrisy. Beneath all your evasions and questions lurks the heart of a man who boasts in his weekly Sabbath observance, but ignores all of the actual Sabbaths God commanded in the Old Testament.

I knew this was your agenda when you deceptively asked the question.

My agenda, however, was to expose this popular religious myth that God placed 613 laws on the necks of men, then lied to them about them. Not to discredit you, but in God's Love for you. And your anger is representative of the anger of religious men since Cain.

The Holy Feast's of the Christ are a road map to the Salvation of God, in my experience of observing them for 30 years. It begins with Passover, but doesn't end there as many modern religions imply. It is followed by the Holy Feast of Unleavened Bread that Paul instructed us to "Keep", which symbolize our journey out of Sin, AKA, Transgressions of God's Laws. This Holy Feast is followed by Pentecost or "first Fruits" which pictures the first begotten children of God during the church age of the New Covenant, As the first part of Acts demonstrates, followed by the Holy Feast of the Christ called Feast of Trumpets, which foreshadows the 2nd coming of the Christ to take over Earths Throne. This is followed by Day of Atonement, a Fast Day which foretells of a time not yet come, when the Christ will put sins on the head of satan where it belongs, and lock Him up for a time. This is followed by the Holy Feast of the Lord's Christ called Tabernacles which symbolize our waiting in "Temporary Booths" for a Continuing city, an eternal inheritance. This is followed by "The Last Great Day", or the last day of the Feast of tabernacles which symbolize the great Throne judgment.

In my view, based on the teaching of the NT, Israel's journey from Exodus to Malachi is a detailed spiritual look into the mind of man, what a human with a choice will trend towards, and how we look at authority, any authority. Paul said it was written specifically for us, as examples so we wouldn't lust after disobedience and rebel against perfection as they also lusted.

I believe Him.

I am not saying any more than Paul as to their observations. Paul said to the weak in faith, "let each man be fully convinced in their own mind". Having been convinced by the Word's of the Christ that these are truly Holy Feasts of His, I Glorify God in them, or strive to. But this is not the reason I replied to your post.

I replied to your post because you were furthering a religious teaching that was basically "Anti-Christ". I knew you didn't think that or know that, that is what deception is all about, believing things that are not truth. I didn't show you the point of view to mock you, or discredit you at all. Read my post, I showed you so you could be warned of the dangers of believing falsehoods about God, and worse yet, teaching them to others.

I am sorry you feel the way you do.