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Billy UK

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7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. NASB

The Sabbath "Remains from when?" -- answer: remains from what it was at the time of David in Psalms 95.

It says THEIR REMAINS and then explains how we enter into that rest by ceasing from our own works in the next verse. Do you believe we do this only on Saturday ? So God only wants you to pick up your cross and cease from your own works on a Saturday ?

By the way which calender are you following ?
 
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Dkh587

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It says THEIR REMAINS and then explains how we enter into that rest by ceasing from our own works in the next verse. Do you believe we do this only on Saturday ? So God only wants you to pick up your cross and cease from your own works on a Saturday ?

the 7th day (and the other holy days) are the only appointed/commanded days to rest. If we don’t even rest according to the commandment(on the 7th day), we shouldn’t expect to enter God’s rest.
 
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solid_core

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the 7th day (and the other holy days) are the only appointed/commanded days to rest. If we don’t even rest according to the commandment(on the 7th day), we shouldn’t expect to enter God’s rest.
This is a total nonsense.

The sabbath day was only a ceremonial shadow of the real rest in Christ. And we, who believe in Christ, have entered the rest. There is no ceremonial keeping of a week day in the New Covenant we live in.
 
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Dkh587

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This is a total nonsense.

The sabbath day was only a ceremonial shadow of the real rest in Christ. And we, who believe in Christ, have entered the rest. There is no ceremonial keeping of a week day in the New Covenant we live in.
The Israelites did not enter God’s rest because they did not trust in him & obey his commandments(including the Sabbath).

anybody who thinks they will enter God’s rest and ignore his weekly commanded day of rest is deluding themselves. It’s not possible. Ask the Israelites.

no such thing as a “ceremonial shadow”.
 
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Billy UK

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he 7th day (and the other holy days) are the only appointed/commanded days to rest. If we don’t even rest according to the commandment(on the 7th day), we shouldn’t expect to enter God’s rest.

Romans 14:5-12 (KJV)
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
 
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solid_core

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The Israelites did not enter God’s rest because they did not trust in him & obey his commandments(including the Sabbath).

anybody who thinks they will enter God’s rest and ignore his weekly commanded day of rest is deluding themselves. It’s not possible. Ask the Israelites.

no such thing as a “ceremonial shadow”.
Do you even read the New Testament? If so, how could you come to a conclusion that you must still keep the ceremonial Sabbath?

In the whole New Testement (27 books) there is not even once said to anybody to keep the Sabbath.
On the other hand its said several times there that the keeping of Sabbath is not the part of the New Covenant.
 
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Billy UK

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The Israelites did not enter God’s rest because they did not trust in him & obey his commandments(including the Sabbath).

anybody who thinks they will enter God’s rest and ignore his weekly commanded day of rest is deluding themselves. It’s not possible. Ask the Israelites.

no such thing as a “ceremonial shadow”.

Post the New Testament Scripture in Which either Jesus or the Apostles commanded us this ? Why are you doing the opposite of what this Scripture says ? If you choose to follow the Sabbath that's your choice but don't Judge a believer if they choose not to.


Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Out of curiosity do you believe its sinful to eat pork ?
 
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Dkh587

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Post the New Testament Scripture in Which either Jesus or the Apostles commanded us this ? Why are you doing the opposite of what this Scripture says ? If you choose to follow the Sabbath that's your choice but don't Judge a believer if they choose not to.


Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Out of curiosity do you believe its sinful to eat pork ?
The Colossians were Sabbath keepers. Paul was telling them to not let anybody judge them for keeping the Sabbath. The Colossians did not go to church on sundays. None of the original assemblies did

and yes, eating pork is a sin(transgression of the law of God)

and I actually have the right to judge a fellow believer for sinning. We are instructed to judge the body of Messiah.
 
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Dkh587

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Do you even read the New Testament? If so, how could you come to a conclusion that you must still keep the ceremonial Sabbath?

In the whole New Testement (27 books) there is not even once said to anybody to keep the Sabbath.
On the other hand its said several times there that the keeping of Sabbath is not the part of the New Covenant.
Nobody in the NT taught for followers of Messiah, whether Israelite or Gentile to stop, or to not keep the Sabbath holy. That’s a direct commandment from God.
 
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Dkh587

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Romans 14:5-12 (KJV)
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14 is not about the Sabbath. God esteems the Sabbath - it’s not up for dispute. Keeping the Sabbath holy is not based on what each individual wants to do - God declared it holy at creation.

romans 14 is about disputable things, such as fasting on different days of the week, not matters that are not disputable, such as the Sabbath.
 
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Billy UK

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The Colossians were Sabbath keepers. Paul was telling them to not let anybody judge them for keeping the Sabbath. The Colossians did not go to church on sundays. None of the original assemblies did

and yes, eating pork is a sin(transgression of the law of God)

and I actually have the right to judge a fellow believer for sinning. We are instructed to judge the body of Messiah.


I dont think theirs much point for me to continue this conversation. Their is clear new New Testament Scripture which I plan to follow.

1 Timothy 4 (KJV)

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Matthew 15:11-20 (KJV)

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?



 
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Bob S

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You do realize that there is a difference between ritual and moral?
I am really glad you asked that question. There certainly is a difference and I have been trying to get that into the heads of those who believe we are under the law. Moral describes our behavior. Our behavior can be either moral or immoral. It is immoral to steal from our fellow man or God. It would be immoral to not do what God asks of us.

Rituals describe rules we believe are important to do on a timely basis. I go through a ritual every day by brushing my teeth. I go to corporate worship service once a week usually every week. Rituals in the old covenant were given by God to the Israelites for various reasons. Passover is a good example. Israel was to remember how God led them out of Egypt. It was for the nation of Israel and not for any other nation. The weekly Sabbath was a ritual for Israel to remember creation and how they were led out of Egypt. Deut 5: 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. All of the rituals God gave to Israel were for Israel only. God didn't give any other nation the ritual laws. Jesus gave us one ritual and that is observing communion. Marriage services have become a beautiful ritual. Funerals have also become a ritual. And both have become very costly.

My question is why do some try to put others under the ritual laws that were only given to Israel and ended when Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood? Had God wanted all nations on Earth to observe the Sabbath and Passover He certainly had the power to do so, but He didn't. Why has man tried to do what God didn't do?
 
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visionary

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I am really glad you asked that question. There certainly is a difference and I have been trying to get that into the heads of those who believe we are under the law. Moral describes our behavior. Our behavior can be either moral or immoral. It is immoral to steal from our fellow man or God. It would be immoral to not do what God asks of us.

Rituals describe rules we believe are important to do on a timely basis. I go through a ritual every day by brushing my teeth. I go to corporate worship service once a week usually every week. Rituals in the old covenant were given by God to the Israelites for various reasons. Passover is a good example. Israel was to remember how God led them out of Egypt. It was for the nation of Israel and not for any other nation. The weekly Sabbath was a ritual for Israel to remember creation and how they were led out of Egypt. Deut 5: 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. All of the rituals God gave to Israel were for Israel only. God didn't give any other nation the ritual laws. Jesus gave us one ritual and that is observing communion. Marriage services have become a beautiful ritual. Funerals have also become a ritual. And both have become very costly.

My question is why do some try to put others under the ritual laws that were only given to Israel and ended when Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood? Had God wanted all nations on Earth to observe the Sabbath and Passover He certainly had the power to do so, but He didn't. Why has man tried to do what God didn't do?
So you do not have any moral laws that you obey? God gave ten moral laws in stone to be transferred to your heart. Lawless, immoral people are rebellious against God.
 
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Bob S

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So you do not have any moral laws that you obey? God gave ten moral laws in stone to be transferred to your heart. Lawless, immoral people are rebellious against God.
That may be what you think is true, but the fact is that only nine of those laws dealt with morality. One dealt with a ceremony. Of course in the sense of whether the ten coming from God could be construed as being immoral would be nonsense. All of God's laws are moral. That does not mean we are now under the ceremonial laws given only to Israel. God told the Israelites why He gave them the weekly Sabbath. He said He gave it to them to remember creation and His leading them out of bondage. It was a special day just for the Israelites. He didn't lead the gentiles out of bondage and He didn't give them the Sabbath.

Why is it that you Messianics feel the need to do something God never planned for you to do? I assume most of you are not Semites. And even if you are it would not be a sin under the new and better covenant not to observe the rituals of the old covenant. I surely hope you do not think I am sinning because I don't observe special days given to only one nation of people.
 
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Bob S

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So you do not have any moral laws that you obey? God gave ten moral laws in stone to be transferred to your heart. Lawless, immoral people are rebellious against God.
Do you believe that the nine laws dealing with morality to God and our fellow man are the only thou shalt nots and if you keep just those nine you will be pleasing to God? Do you realize there are hundreds of ways we can hurt our fellow man and thus hurt God? Here are just a few that Paul listed in Gal 5: 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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That may be what you think is true, but the fact is that only nine of those laws dealt with morality. One dealt with a ceremony. Of course in the sense of whether the ten coming from God could be construed as being immoral would be nonsense. All of God's laws are moral. That does not mean we are now under the ceremonial laws given only to Israel. God told the Israelites why He gave them the weekly Sabbath. He said He gave it to them to remember creation and His leading them out of bondage. It was a special day just for the Israelites. He didn't lead the gentiles out of bondage and He didn't give them the Sabbath.

Why is it that you Messianics feel the need to do something God never planned for you to do? I assume most of you are not Semites. And even if you are it would not be a sin under the new and better covenant not to observe the rituals of the old covenant. I surely hope you do not think I am sinning because I don't observe special days given to only one nation of people.

Actually Bob, not only is what visionary believes true but it is biblical and God's Word. All of God's 10 commandments are moral laws and the standard of God's righteousness as it is written in the scriptures...

PSALMS 119:172 My toungue shall speak of your word for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS <right doing>

God's 10 commandments in the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we knowingly break any one of them *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11

Hope this is helpful
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Do you believe that the nine laws dealing with morality to God and our fellow man are the only thou shalt nots and if you keep just those nine you will be pleasing to God? Do you realize there are hundreds of ways we can hurt our fellow man and thus hurt God? Here are just a few that Paul listed in Gal 5: 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, 1828 - Moral
MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]
1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness.
Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue.
Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.
2. Subject to the moral law and capable of moral actions; bound to perform social duties; as a moral agent or being.
3. Supported by the evidence of reason or probability; founded on experience of the ordinary course of things; as moral certainty, distinguished from physical or mathematical certainty or demonstration.
Physical and mathematical certainty may be stiled infallible, and moral certainty may be properly stiled indubitable.
Things of a moral nature may be proved by moral arguments.
4. Conformed to rules of right, or to the divine law respecting social duties; virtuous; just; as when we say, a particular action is not moral.
5. Conformed to law and right in exterior deportment; as, he leads a good moral life.

As posted somewhere else all of God's 10 commandments are the standard of "right doing which is translated as "righteousness" They give us the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we knowingly break any one of them *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H6664

RIGHTEOUSNESS; RIGHTEOUS; from צדק; tsedeq (H6663); meaning the right (natural, moral or legal; also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

God's Word defines Righteousness or Righteouss as right doing and the moral standard as God's commandments.

PSALMS 119:172 My tongue shall speak of your word for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS <Right Doing - MORAL>

The first four commandments of God's 10 Commandments are our duty of love and right doing towards God and the next six commandments are our duty of love and right doing towards our fellow man. This is why JESUS says on these two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. Paul is saying the same thing in ROMANS 13:8-10 as does JAMES in JAMES 2:8-12.

Hope this helps Bob.
 
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Bob S

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The weekly Sabbath was a ritual for Israel to remember creation and how they were led out of Egypt. Deut 5: 15 "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." All of the rituals God gave to Israel were for Israel only. God didn't give any other nation those ritual laws. Jesus gave us one ritual and that is observing communion. Marriage services have become a beautiful ritual. Funerals have also become a ritual. And both have become very costly.

My question is why do some try to put others under the ritual laws that were only given to Israel and ended when Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood? Had God wanted all nations on Earth to observe the Sabbath and Passover He certainly had the power to do so, but He didn't. Why is man trying to do what God didn't do?

Why did Paul in 2Cor 3 tell us that the ministry of death that was written on stone, the ten commandments, are done away KJV or transitory in other versions of the Bible and so many not believe his words. Why did Paul write in Eph 2: 14 "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace," Jesus our Savior brought Jew and Gentile reconciled through Christ together.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The weekly Sabbath was a ritual for Israel to remember creation and how they were led out of Egypt. Deut 5: 15 "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." All of the rituals God gave to Israel were for Israel only. God didn't give any other nation those ritual laws. Jesus gave us one ritual and that is observing communion. Marriage services have become a beautiful ritual. Funerals have also become a ritual. And both have become very costly.

My question is why do some try to put others under the ritual laws that were only given to Israel and ended when Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood? Had God wanted all nations on Earth to observe the Sabbath and Passover He certainly had the power to do so, but He didn't. Why is man trying to do what God didn't do?

Why did Paul in 2Cor 3 tell us that the ministry of death that was written on stone, the ten commandments, are done away KJV or transitory in other versions of the Bible and so many not believe his words. Why did Paul write in Eph 2: 14 "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace," Jesus our Savior brought Jew and Gentile reconciled through Christ together.

Not really Bob, Gods' ISRAEL according to God's Word is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant then you have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; from JEREMIAH 31:31-36. Gentile believers are now grafted into the root (Christ) with JEWISH believers *ROMANS 11:13-27 and all are one in Christ *EPHESIANS 2:11-14; GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13.

EXODUS 20:1-17 is where God gave his people the 10 commandments written with his own finger on two tables of stone as the written Word of God and also spoke His Commandments directly to His people. DEUTERONOMY 5 is where MOSES read the 10 commandments to God's people who have all just come out of the land of Egypt. We are God's ISRAEL today and as such all of God's Words apply to us because we are now God's people and God's ISRAEL who are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word.

As posted earlier to you in another thread that you did not respond to, 2 Corinthians 3 is like a discussion between ROMANS 7 (knowledge of sin) and ROMANS 8 (forgiveness of sin) showing the role of God's LAW in leading us to GRACE and God's forgiveness and freedom from sin in the new covenant to walk in His Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:15; ROMANS 3:31. It is not doing away with God's LAW but leading us to faith and salvation through JESUS and His Word. As Paul says faith does not do away with God's LAW it establishes it in the life of those who believe and follow God's Word *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will die in their sins *ROMANS 8:13 because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-39; MATTHEW 7:16-27.

Hope this helps Bob.
 
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