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The Sabbath, Before and After

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by HARK!, Aug 21, 2021.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Some say that the Sabbath law wasn't given until Sinai. This is not true.

    (CLV) Ex 16:23
    then he said to them: This is what Yahweh has spoken, A cessation, a holy sabbath to Yahweh is tomorrow. What you are baking, bake, and what you are cooking, cook, and all the superfluity, leave it in your charge until the morning.

    Some say that the Sabbath law "ended at the cross." So why does Yahshua speak of a Sabbath of the distant future?

    (CLV) Mt 24:20
    Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,

    (CLV) Mt 24:21
    for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring.

    The Sabbath law is forever. All flesh will honor the Sabbath in the kingdom to come.

    (CLV) Isa 66:22
    For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I shall make shall stand before Me, averring is Yahweh, So your seed and your name shall stand.

    (CLV) Isa 66:23
    And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

    (CLV) Isa 66:24
    And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh.

    Shabbat shalom.
     
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  2. Jesus is my Superhero

    Jesus is my Superhero Zealot

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    Sabbath was created at creation week, long before the first Jewish person roamed the earth. God set it aside and declared it holy. I think of it as a firebreak against secularism or an island to arrive at each week surrounded by hedonists.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
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  3. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Well-Known Member

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    Gen 2. Shabbat shalom.
     
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  4. .Mikha'el.

    .Mikha'el. Young Fogie Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I don't think it matter when it was established. What's important is that it's part of divine law now. And I hope you're having a great Shabbat. :)
     
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  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    happy Sabbath :)
     
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  6. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    A Fast from the World, as Is. 58 implies.
     
  7. Nitsud

    Nitsud New Member

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    The Sabbath the day of rest. As the word says. We are to keep the Sabbath and keep it Holy unto God. Holy means separate from (separate it should be kept unto the Lord who is our rest). "A Fast from the World," as Studyman wrote. That my friend is a great analogy! It is the day for the Lord to work peace into our hearts minds and bodies. Six days we labor in and for the Earth. One day we cease from the labor and remember that the God who loves us heals us, feeds us, forgives us, draws us near, was brutally murdered by the ones who claimed to be waiting his coming that, "..they may have life and have it more abundantly."

    How many times have you heard someone say? "I have no life." I'm sure the Hebrews were saying it repeatedly as they labored under the fierce hand of the Pharaoh. Probably some thing to the effect of working unto death. No rest.

    Matthew 7:11: So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

    Matthew 6:30: If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith?

    Rest when he tells you to rest, labor when he tells you to labor. Trust in him to supply your needs.

    Psalm 46:10: Be still and know that I am God;

    Rest, there is nothing he can not do.
     
  8. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Hi HARK!

    I'm glad you brought up Isaiah 66. It's been on my mind recently. I hope this isn't off topic for the thread.

    19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send those who escape of them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to far-away islands, who have not heard my fame,

    --- who are the Nations that haven't heard of God's fame in this day of the internet?

    nor have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 They shall bring all your brothers

    ---brothers? Is this talking about natural Israel or the Israel of God?

    out of all the nations for an offering to the Lord, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules, and on camels,

    ---why the old types of transportation? Is this passage to be taken literally, or is it symbolic?

    to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, as the children of Israel bring their offering in a clean vessel into the Lord’s house. 21 Of them I will also select priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

    ---what are the priests and Levites for?

    22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me,” says the Lord, “so your offspring and your name shall remain. 23 It shall happen that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before me,” says the Lord.

    --Come to where? Is Jerusalem to be the place to worship God?

    24 “They will go out, and look at the dead bodies of the men who have transgressed against me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

    ---for all eternity people are going to be looking at dead bodies? Or is this a temporary time before eternity.
     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    These questions would be better asked in the Eschatology forum.

    Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

    However, I might recommend this group if you would like to get some deep insight into this subject:

    https://www.youtube.com/c/TheGodCulture/playlists

    They provide numerous series to explain scripture in deep detail, providing maps, historical references and more. I don't agree with all of their conclusions; but I greatly appreciate their diligence in their research.

    Their work is an amazing eye opener.

    You might start with the Solomon's Gold Series, then move on to thew Lost Tribe Series, before watching the Answers in Jubilees Series.

    In order to understand scripture more clearly, we need to understand where the mentioned locations are, who is there, why they are there, and what significance they play.

    It might take several weeks to get through those series; but I find myself watching them over again, and taking notes, expanding on their research, and copying links to my findings.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
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  10. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion!

    I started a new thread in the eschatology forum.

    Come on over if you wish :)
     
  11. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Hmmm... Technically you may have an argument but scripturally you're incorrect.
    Read
    Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
    Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

    Here is God making His argument about when He first gave the Sabbath.
    Eze 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
    Eze 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
    Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
    Eze 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

    Distant future? In Matt 24:20-21 Jesus was speaking to the generation that was listening to Him at that time. No one would probably escape the burning down of Jerusalem on a Sabbath. The gates were always closed on Sabbath.
    Obviously you're staging up questionable narratives about the Sabbath. Isa 66 is a last days prophesy that's poorly interpreted by some.
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    This makes no mention of the law not being given before Sinai. That would contradict scripture.

    Before Sinai:

    (CLV) Ex 16:4
    Then Yahweh said to Moses: Behold Me causing bread from the heavens to rain for you. When the people will go forth they will pick up a day's matter in its day, that I may probe them, whether they shall go by My law for not.

    What law?

    Before Sinai:

    (CLV) Ex 16:28
    Hence Yahweh |said to Moses: How long will you refuse to observe My instructions and My laws?

    What laws?

    Before Sinai:

    (CLV) Ex 18:20
    You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

    What statutes? What laws?


    (CLV) Ex 16:10
    And it came to be as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they turned around to the wilderness, and behold, the glory of Yahweh, it appeared in the cloud.

    Moses entered the wilderness long before he entered the wilderness of Sinai.

    Three chapters, and three months, later:

    (CLV) Ex 19:1
    In the third month after the going forth of the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt, ion this day they entered the wilderness of Sinai.
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    So the burning of Jerusalem was, at that time, the greatest affliction since the beginning of the world?

    That's highly debatable.

    However, let's start with something a little more clear cut. Was Yahshua speaking of a time before or after his execution? Was Yahshua speaking of a time before or after his ascension? If Yahshua tells us that the Sabbath was not abolished at his execution, nor at his ascension; when was it abolished; and who abolished it?

    Scripture please.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    What is your question? I'll do my best to help with interpretation.
     
  15. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    The facts are these; Yes, Sabbath was first given to the Children of Israel according to the context of Ex 16 that you've posted.
    As the Scripture says Sabbath was given as a test to show if the people would keep this law or not.
    Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
    Exo 16:5And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.


    As the story continues in Ex16, some days people did not pick up the manna on time and it spoiled.
    If picking up manna was a permanent part of the 4th commandment, you'd have an argument. So you need to reconsider.
    At Sinai, Sabbath was given as one of the commandments in the law. The difference between the Wilderness of Sin and Sinai is what God required from the Children of Israel. In Ex 16, God rained bread from heaven 6days and they had to pick up a double portion on Fridays. The Sabbath commandment that was part of the law written on stone has totally different requirements. (Ex20:8-13)
    So Nehemiah is not talking about Sabbath with manna which ended after 40yrs.


    You're straining a knat to prove nothing Hark.
    What laws? Ex 16 is talking about commands about Sabbath they were breaking.


    Jethro is proposing a framework for governing the multitude. Your questions appear as an attempt to set up the law before it was given.

    So, what's your conclusion of the matter?
     
  16. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    God is said to have Commandments, Statutes Laws and Judgments. He is also said to have a "Way", or as it is called. "the Way of the Lord". We know God shared His Way with Abraham, who kept God's Way, and taught His Children to Keep the "Way of the Lord" as well.

    Gen. 18:
    18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

    And again

    Gen. 26:
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    God's way from the very beginning has included a Sabbath rest on the 7th day of a Week HE created. This Statute is a "Feast of God" that HE gives to men for their own good, according to scriptures.

    Lev. 23:
    1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

    The religions of this world, which we are warned about in Scriptures over and over and over and over and over, imply in their religious philosophies that God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws, including His Holy Sabbath, didn't exist until God gave them to Abraham's Children in Egypt. But according to the Holy Scriptures, "God's Way", including His Sabbath rest, existed from creation. And although they were not enumerated until Exodus, God most certainly gave His Laws, Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, including HIS definition of Justice, to men long before Moses was even born, long before Mt. Sinai.

    The only Covenant that God made with Israel, that Abraham didn't have for sure, was His Covenant with Levi and a Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron". This LAW was not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, (Levi wasn't even born in Abraham's time) and it was ADDED "because of transgressions" and was to be in force "Till the SEED should come", that is, a New High Priest "After the order of Melchizedek". Moses spoke of Him in Duet. 18.

    So the teaching that God's Sabbath wasn't given as a "test" commandment from the very beginning, can not be proven with Scriptures. What we know for sure is Abraham was instructed to "deny himself", his family, his religion, his own ways, and was to follow God into a land/lifestyle that he had not yet known. And that his children in Egypt, were also instructed to "deny themselves" and leave their home, their religions, their lifestyle, and follow God into a land/lifestyle they had not yet known. And when the Messiah came, HE also instructed His people to "Deny themselves" their family, their religions, their ways, and follow Him to a land/lifestyle they had not yet known.

    His Way also included God's Holy Sabbath which HE said was "Made for man".

    Jesus warned of the "Leaven" of the mainstream preachers of His time, and ours. It is good to "Take Heed" of their philosophies.

    Ex. 16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

    20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

    As it is written;

    Heb. 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

    16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Caleb, Joshua and their families, "Kept the Way of the Lord"))

    God still provides for His People. We are to gather sustenance 6 days a week, but prepare for the 7th, as it is different than the other 6 days. The requirements are not different at all. When they reached the land flowing with milk and honey, they were to gather this milk and honey, provided by God, or "raining down from His Throne", 6 days a week, making sure they gathered more on the 6th day, so as to be prepared for the 7th. It is truly the "Way of the Lord" to prepare in this life, for the life to come. As we are looking for a continuing City, and are "diligent" to be prepared for it's coming.


    Hark can speak for himself, but i wanted to weigh in.

    A man can not truthfully say God's Sabbath wasn't "given" before Moses. God's Laws, Statutes, Commandments, Judgments clearly existed long before Moses, according to Scriptures. A man can say truthfully though, that many of God's Commandments, Statutes, Laws and Judgments were not written down for us to see until Moses.

    Which, according to Paul, was the very reason the Law and Prophets were written.

    1 Cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

    10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

    And again;

    1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I didn't make an argument about manna; but since you seem to be looking for one; I'll make it now.

    The double portion of manna was given for the Sabbath, not the other way around. In other words, the Sabbath preceded the manna.
     
  18. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Those pesky facts!

    Even if we ignore them; they just won't go away.

    I noticed that you didn't refute the scripture that I provided.

    That's a good thing.
     
  19. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    It's no secret that 6 days of work precedes 1 day of rest. So you're wrong because manna for 6 days preceded the Sabbath on the 7th day.
    Those pesky little facts does matters HARK.

    The first mention of manna in the bible coincided with the first mention of Sabbath. God rained bread 6 days and the 7th day there was none.
    Moses said to the Children of Israel "THE LORD HAS GIVEN YOU THE SABBATH".
    The idea that Sabbath was given to Adam has to be a fictitious claim that contradicts what the bible prove without commentary.
    How was Sabbath kept from Adam to Moses and was manna involved? Where is the command about how to keep it?

    "God rested on the seventh day," does not mean that God gave Adam work or rest on his second day alive. (makes no sense if Adam didn't work for 6 days)

    Ex 20 reinforces the facts of Gen 2:1-3 that God alone rested on the Seventh day, because God alone finished all His work. What work did Adam start or finished?

    Your OP is debunked because scriptures proves that the words of the 4th commandment given in the law is how Sabbath law was and is currently kept as it was given at Sinai and not before.
    Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
    Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

    Eze 20:11And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
    Eze 20:12Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

    Sorry
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  20. HARK!

    HARK! שמע Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    It was from the beginning.

    I pulled this word from Gen 2:2 וישבת

    Can you tell me what it means?

    Hint: The root is שבת



    So your saying that the Shabbat was created for the double portion, not the other way around?

    You'll have to have to point out the double portion in the seven days of creation.



    I'm elated that you are coming to this understanding.

    You are incorrect:

    JUBILEES 2
    Mosheh Is Given the complete history from Creation
    1 And the malak of the presence spoke to Mosheh according to the word of
    YAHWEH, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days
    YAHWEH ALMIGHTY finished all His works and all that He created, and kept
    Shabbat on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a
    sign for all His works.
    2 For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth
    and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the malakim of the
    presence, and the malakim of sanctification, and the malakim [of the spirit of fire
    and the malakim] of the spirit of the winds, and the malakim of the spirit of the
    clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the
    malakim of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the malakim
    of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and
    of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on
    the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and
    the light, dawn and day, which He has prepared in the knowledge of HIS heart.
    3 And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him
    on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.
    4 And on the second day He created the firmament in the midst of the waters,
    and the waters were divided on that day -half of them went up above and half of
    them went down below the firmament (that was) in the midst over the face of
    the whole earth. And this was the only work YAHWEH created on the second
    day.
    5 And on the third day He commanded the waters to pass from off the face of
    the whole earth into one place, and the dry land to appear.
    6 And the waters did so as He commanded them, and they retired from off the
    face of the earth into one place outside of this firmament, and the dry land
    appeared.
    7 And on that day He created for them all the seas according to their separate
    gathering-places, and all the rivers, and the gatherings of the waters in the
    mountains and on all the earth, and all the lakes, and all the dew of the earth,
    and the seed which is sown, and all sprouting things, and fruit-bearing trees, and
    trees of the wood, and the garden of Eden, in Eden and all. These four great
    works YAHWEH created on the third day.
    8 And on the fourth day He created the sun and the moon and the stars, and
    set them in the firmament of the heaven, to give light upon all the earth, and to
    rule over the day and the night, and divide the light from the darkness.
    9 And YAHWEH appointed the sun to be a great sign on the earth for days and
    for Shabbats and for months and for feasts and for years and for Shabbats of
    years and for jubilees and for all seasons of the years.
    10 And it divides the light from the darkness and for prosperity, that all things
    may prosper which shoot and grow on the earth. These three kinds He made on
    the fourth day.
    11 And on the fifth day He created great sea monsters in the depths of the
    waters, for these were the first things of flesh that were created by his hands,
    the fish and everything that moves in the waters, and everything that flies, the
    birds and all their kind.12 And the sun rose above them to prosper them, and above everything that
    was on the earth, everything that shoots out of the earth, and all fruit-bearing
    trees, and all flesh. These three kinds He created on the fifth day.
    13 And on the sixth day He created all the animals of the earth, and all cattle,
    and everything that moves on the earth.
    14 And after all this He created man, a man and a woman created He them,
    and gave him dominion over all that is upon the earth, and in the seas, and over
    everything that flies, and over beasts and over cattle, and over everything that
    moves on the earth, and over the whole earth, and over all this He gave him
    dominion.
    15 And these four kinds He created on the sixth day. And there were
    altogether two and twenty kinds.
    16 And He finished all his work on the sixth day -all that is in the heavens and
    on the earth, and in the seas and in the abysses, and in the light and in the
    darkness, and in everything.
    17 And He gave us a great sign, the Shabbat day, that we should work six
    days, but keep Shabbat on the seventh day from all work.
    18 And all the malakim of the presence, and all the malakim of sanctification,
    these two great classes -He has bidden us to keep the Shabbat with Him in
    heaven and on earth

    YHWH finished his work in 6 days. He expects the same from his children.

    He has.

    I already pointed out that the book of Jubilees refutes that claim. Do you really believe that Adam was working in the garden, in the presence of YHWH, who was resting?

    Do you really believe that YHWH would allow Adam to practice lawlessness in his presence?

    How did Abraham know the law?

    (CLV) Gn 15:6
    Now Abram believed in Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

    (CLV) Gn 26:5
    inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

    Something to pray about.



    Clearly the Torah was given before Sinai. Abraham obeyed it; and YHWH was about to exterminate those Goyim who were dancing around the golden idol as YHWH was writing it down for them.

    Just because the Goyim weren't familiar with the Torah, doesn't mean that everyone who preceded their coming to the truth was ignorant; anymore than as Paul brought the Goyim to the Torah, doesn't negate the fact that Yahshua already knew the truth.

    Don't take it so hard.
     
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