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THE RULE OF FAITH AND PRACTICE IS ALWAYS SCRIPTURE "ALONE" 2

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Nov 13, 2021.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    I beg to differ...

    I will try again.

    Can you please answer this question...

    When Satan quoted the Scripture during the temptation of Jesus, was the Scripture he quoted "God's Word" ?
     
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You beg to differ on what exactly? Jesus says no where in the bible that scripture is deceptive unless it comes from the mouth of God like you posted earlier. If you believe that Jesus says this then provide the scripture. You were shown from the scriptures more than once now that Jesus when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness that his response was scripture saying "IT IS WRITTEN"... "Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. So what is your argument *Matthew 4:4; 7; 10 and your response Carl is "I beg to differ"? Are you saying that Jesus did not use scripture in the wilderness when tempted by the Devil when you were provided scripture proving Jesus used scripture when tempted in the wilderness and we are not to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God? Lets not say things Jesus never said Carl.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  3. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    For starters it would be a lot less complicated if you stopped trying to tell me what my thinking is - I am happy to tell you and you repeatedly get it wrong.

    My question is very simple but it cuts to the heart of your thesis.

    When Jesus was being tempted, Satan quoted Scripture. Did Satan therefore speak 'God's Word'?

    Satan presented Scripture deceptively and the Words were certainly not proceeding from 'God's Mouth'.

    You see Scripture can be a dangerous tool in the hands of the enemy. The 'Inspired Word' can be presented in an uninspired way. So quoting the Word is no guarantee of presenting Truth.

    For this reason it is important to call Scripture what it is.. Scripture !!!

    It only becomes 'God's Word' when conveyed by the unction of the Holy Spirit.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Carl I was only commenting on what you posted earlier. Nothing more so there is no need to get upset. You were making claims that were not biblical. Jesus does not say anywhere that scripture is deceptive unless it comes from the mouth of God. Jesus used scripture "It is written" when tempted and the wilderness and quoted scripture against the devils temptations in the wilderness that were based on the scriptures. These are not my words but God's Word as shown in *Matthew 4:4; 7; 10.

    As posted from the start in post # 65 linked of
    course the devil used a deceptive interpretation of the scriptures in the temptations in the wilderness. The response of Jesus was to use scripture saying "IT IS WRITTEN" showing the correct interpretation of the scriptures. That does not mean that Jesus is teaching all scripture is deceptive unless it comes from the mouth of God now does it?

    Jesus therefore is our example and we are to follow in his footsteps. The temptation in the wilderness is a great example showing why the scriptures are the only rule of faith by the way. Jesus is shown here in the temptation in the wilderness demonstrating his faith with scripture. As "it is written" faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" - Romans 10:17.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
  5. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but you continue to attribute to me quotations I never made.

    I am not surprised that you are making it hard to discuss this important issue.

    My claim is that Scripture without the unction of the Holy Spirit is not the Word of God. Words on the page without the Breath of God are dead. Even worse is when Scripture is used to challenge Truth.

    That is why I have repeatedly asked you to cease calling the Scripture the Word of God when of itself without the Holy Spirit it is lifeless.

    Moving on...

    Where in scripture does it say that Jesus only speaks through reading scripture ?

    When Paul wrote Romans 10 the New Testament as we have it didn't even exist.

    And what did he say...

    “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    That was not a reference to Scripture. That was a reference to the Living Word of Christ from whence comes Faith.

    It didn't come from the OT either - it was fresh revelation given by Jesus.

    So the Scripture is a divine reference useful to those being inspired as they read.

    It is however certainly not the only way God speaks to His chosen.
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Carl I only responded to exactly what you said as shown here...
    This is not biblical Carl. If we could get back to the topic of the OP now it would be most appreciated. I have never said we should use scripture without seeking God to guide us and teach us with His Spirit and have always stated this. So I am not sure of your point here.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  7. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    How could it, when a religion meant to honour and promote the governance/Kingdom of God, turned traitorous and amalgamated with the governance of man three centuries after it's inception?
     
  8. rturner76

    rturner76 Domine non-sum dignus Supporter

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    Is John talking about just the 10 commandments or the 613 laws of Orthodox Judaism? I didn't see any specific reference to the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of rest. I am no Bible scholar, would you be willing to show me where it says the Sabbath must be the 7th day? I thought it just meant a day of rest, I didn't know it specified that particular day of the week. I could use more education on this topic.

    FOr example, if one gord to Saturday Mass on Saturday, have they observed the Sabbath?
     
  9. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    No problem - I will raise the issue on another thread among those with more understanding.

    And I was very much on topic as you will see from my last post.

    Have a great day.
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi rturner76, nice to see you again. I have heard this 613 argument before but if you think it through it is not an argument at all because Gods' 10 commandments would be included in these so called 613 would they not? Therefore in my view this is not an argument at all (I know this argument does not come from you or is directed at you).

    So to say that there is no specific reference there to the 10 commandment or God's 4th commandment cannot be true as the scriptures are in reference to all of God's commandments, which would of course include God's 10 commandments and Gods' seventh day Sabbath. That does not mean that God does not have His true people in every Church he does because Jesus says in His own words, in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    According to the scripture God's Word says that His people are in all the churches but Jesus says that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24). God is calling His people where ever they might be out from following man made teachings and traditions (Matthew 15:3-9) back to the pure Word of God (Revelation 18:1-5).

    The scriptures provided in the post you are quoting from (post # 79 linked) simply shows that Gods' true people keep all the commandments of God. This of course includes Gods 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments. That is what God's Word says (not my words). This was an answer from scripture in regards to your earlier question as to what group is right; those who teach Sunday or those who teach the Sabbath. The scriptures teach that Gods' true people keep all of God's commandments, therefore they are Sabbath keepers.

    Of course we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant but everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living (scriptures here). However the shadow laws for remission of sins (the Sanctuary laws, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings are all now fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

    The purpose of God's law (the 10 commandments including the Sabbath) in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. According to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin.

    As to your other question? Yes happy to show you where it says in the scriptures that the Sabbath is the "seventh day". It is found in God's 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 where it says in verse [10] BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD. This is the only definition of the creation Sabbath given in the whole bible that God tells us to "Remember" in verse 8 because I guess he knew we would all forget.

    God bless.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean you will raise it with someone that will give you the answer you want to hear? Jesus never said anywhere in the bible that the scriptures are deceptive Carl he used them when he was being tempted in the wilderness when the devil was quoting scripture to tempt and deceive him saying "IT IS WRITTEN". Anyhow have a great day Carl.
     
  12. jamiec

    jamiec Active Member

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    My long reply, in 2 parts (sorry about this):

    Which is little use, if we cannot identify which books the Scriptures are. And that passage says nothing of the doctrine that the Bible is to be the supreme rule of faith & morals, nor that all Scripture is totally inerrant.
    St Paul - assuming him to be the author of that passage - frequently refers to the OT Scriptures, and uses them as authoritative. But never once does he refer to any NT Scriptures, not even by name. There is no *Biblical* foundation for the canonicity as God-breathed Scripture of even one NT writing - let alone for the canonicity & God-breathedness of all 27 of the writings in the NT. Nowhere does the NT list its own contents, let alone ascribe to them all the qualities orthodox Protestant Bibliology ascribes to them.

    Are any of the NT books God-breathed ? Scripture does not say.

    Is any of them to be had as Scripture by the entire Church ? Likewise.

    Is any of them to be had as Scripture for all time to come ? Likewise.

    Is any of them named in Scripture ? No.

    Are any of them, separately or together, called the supreme rule in faith & morals ? No, to both questions.

    Does Revelation 22.18 claim to be Holy Scripture ? No. It does claim, explicitly, to be a revelation from God, read in public; that does not require it to be Scripture.

    Does 2 Peter’s reference to “the letters of Paul” mean they are Scripture ? Not necessarily. And we are left to guess which ones are meant - for there is nothing to show that the canonical letters, & they alone, are meant.

    Jesus never promised, or even hinted at, any Christian additions to the Scriptures He knews - all the evidence for His position on the matter is in favour of His endorsing the finality of “the Law and the Prophets”. Wherever that leaves the Writings, it absolutely excludes every single book of the NT from having Scriptural status.

    St Jude quotes the words of 1 Enoch 1.9 as a prophecy fulfilled in his own time. By the logic of Evangelical Protestant Fundamentalistic Total Biblical Inerrancy, a God-breathed NT letter, by a brother of Jesus, is making the (inerrantly true) statement that Enoch, an ancestor of Noah, prophesied, & made a prediction fulfilled in Jude’s own time. And this prediction is quoted, not from any book acknowledged as Scripture by Evangelical Protestant Fundamentalists, but from a book not in the canon. By normal EPFTBI logic, Jude is inerrantly quoting a fulfilled prediction made centuries before the Flood by a Biblical saint & prophet elsewhere praised for his faith. IOW, Jude makes & proves a point by going outside the Bible - not by confining himself to it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  13. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like it all boils down to the age old battle for supremacy between scripture and clergy. One is more likely to find Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom in the former than the latter.
     
  14. jamiec

    jamiec Active Member

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    Part 2 of 2:
    It needs to be shown, not assumed, that “the Word of God” refers to Scripture, & not to the preached message of the Apostles.
    With or without those additions to the text, none of those passages shows that “Scripture is the only rule of faith”. What justification for adding to those texts is there ?
    That last passage is certainly compatible with St John’s Gospel being Scripture, but equally certainly does not require it to be Scripture. All sorts of books can be described in the same way, even though nobody thinks of them as Scripture. And even if that passage did prove that Gospel to be Scripture, it still does not show that this book is, or is part of, “the only rule of faith”. The other passages fail to prove the case being made.
    Non-Protestant Churches affirm those Scriptures too. Accepting them in no way requires belief that “Scripture is the only rule of faith”.
    John 6.63 is a reference to the spoken words of Jesus, which were not Scripture when He spoke them.

    John 17.17 may refer to Scripture - and it may not.
    As noted above, the “word of God” may be a reference to the message preached, rather than to the Scriptures.
    NT Christians could not follow a written NT that did not yet exist. For the author of the Fourth Gospel, “the Word” is revealed first & foremost, not in the (OT) Scriptures, but in Jesus - in a Person Who taught with authority, not in a book. Scripture is at best a witness to Christ - without Him, it can kill. In no way can it replace Him.

    The only basis for the canonisation of those 27 books as a written NT of God-breathed Scripture, was the discernment, by the churches, over a long period of time, that those 27 writings were to be had in all the churches as Sacred Scripture. And this discernment is beliieved to have been the work of the Holy Spirit of God. But on all this centuries-long process, Scripture has not a word to say.

    One could make a case for the canonisation of these books based on what the Westminnster Confession of Faith calls “good and necessary consequence” - but that case would be worked out by fallible men; it would not be revealed in Scripture.

    The words of the WCF on the qualities & excellence of Scripture are admirable - but they do not guard the Scriptures against determined scepticism. Great claims are made for the Koran as well, but no Christian who accepts the authority of Scripture will accept them. Here are those words from the WCF:

    “We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.” - WCF chapter 1.5: The Westminster Confession of Faith - Ligonier Ministries
    ..
    The argument from the “inward work of the Holy Spirit” can have authority for the individual, or for a group of like-minded individuals; but it is of no value to a disbeliever in its force, because such an experience cannot be shown by mere argument to be of any authority. Some things need to be known by personal experience, if they are to be known properly at all. Mere argument is too impersonal to convince.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No problem Jamie, always happy to discuss the scriptures. Let's investigate them together?
    Your response here...
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 says [16], ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION (God breathed) OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17], That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works. As shown from the scripture already in this OP we receive faith as we believe what Gods' Word says as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17 so to say that is of "little use" when God says that all scripture comes from God that leads us to have saving faith in what Gods' Word says is to deny that faith comes by the living Word of God revealed in the God breathed written Words of God given for our admonition upon who the ends of the world of come to to deny faith which is the only means where man might be saved. So I disagree with your teachings and claims here as they are not biblical or a view that can be supported by the scriptures which is the only rule of faith because it is from scripture the we receive faith *Romans 10:17.
    Your response here...
    Perhaps what your not considering here in your opinion is that at some point in time the books of the old testament that were considered collectively as scripture were decided to be as such as God's people collectively and prayerfully met together under God's guidance to decide as to what was scriptures and what was not considered to be scriptures. The books that make up the old testament scriptures were collectively and prayerfully decided upon by the Jewish leaders and scholars of the day in 5-2 Century BC the Jews collectively came together to consider what books of the old testament were authoritative as to what they viewed was Gods' Word and scripture (Source: wiki). The new testament was also decided upon at an early stage in the Church's history after the death of Jesus in the same manner as the old testament scriptures in the 3rd and 4th century AD (Source: wiki). So to make an argument that the canonization of what is scripture and what is not scripture is simply an argument in silence in my view that claims that God is not in control of His Word. Do you honestly believe that God who gives His Word to all mankind is not in control of His Word and that the bible as we have it today is not His Word and the scriptures that he wants us to believe and follow? Sorry for me that is simply to deny God's Word which is the only rule of faith when faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God *Romans 10:17.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your response here...
    This was already shown earlier, what do you think scripture is? It is God's Word not mine that defines what scripture is there is no need for any guess work here...

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 [16], ALL SCRIPTURE (G1124) IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION (God breathed) OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17], That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works.

    The Greek word used here for "scripture" is γραφή; graph G1124 meaning holy writings; or a writing or something that is written that is holy. This is also shown in the context of 2 Timothy 3:14-15 which says [14] Continue you in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing of whom you have learned them; [15], And that from a child you have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Therefore dear friend once again the scriptures are the only rule of faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God *Romans 10:17.
    Your response here...
    You have missed the point here because your pulling my quotes out of their context (added back in red above). The other scriptures was provided in support and built around Romans 10:17 that you separated from my OP post. That shows that our faith comes from God's Word and is not separate from Gods' Word if we deny God's Word we deny our faith that comes by believing and following what Gods' Word says.
    Your response here...
    John 20:31 is a direct reference to scripture being "Written" that we might "believe" because by believing Gods' Word (written scripture) we have faith and we are saved by grace through faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. Therefore the scriptures are the only rule of what faith is.
    No, sorry I respectfully disagree. That is like saying all books can be considered Gods' Word but nobody thinks of then as God's Word. The scriptures compiled in the bible are "God breathed" given to mankind and those who believe by God. They are not man breathed from the imaginations of men.
    The Church and Gods' people are Gods' people because they believe and follow what Gods Word says and this is saving faith as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. The scriptures are the only rule of faith as they determine what we are to believe and follow.
    John 6:63 is God's Word and says the words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life. We only have these words of God recorded as the written Word (Holy scripture) therefore the words of Jesus are in deed scripture that have been written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come *1 Corinthians 10:11. John 17:17 says that we are sanctified through the truth and that God's Word is truth just as the recorded spoken Word of God as scripture is truth. What ever way you want to say it our salvation is only in God's Word as we believe and follow what God's Word says. Therefore the scriptures are the only rule of faith because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If we therefore reject God's Word and do not believe what God's Word says we reject the faith which is our only means of salvation (see Romans 14:23).
    Your response here...
    As posted earlier, perhaps what your not considering here in your opinion is that at some point in time the books of the old testament that were considered collectively as scripture were decided to be as such as God's people collectively and prayerfully met together under God's guidance to decide what was scripture and what was not considered to be scriptures. The books that make up the old testament scriptures were collectively and prayerfully decided upon by the Jewish leaders and scholars of the day in 5-2 Century BC the Jews collectively came together to consider what books of the old testament were authoritative as to what they viewed was Gods' Word and scripture (Source: wiki).

    The new testament was also decided upon at an early stage in the Church's history after the death of Jesus in the same manner as the old testament scriptures in the 3rd and 4th century AD (Source: wiki). So to make an argument that the canonization of what is scripture and what is not scripture is simply an argument in silence in my view that claims that God is not in control of His Word. Do you honestly believe that God who gives His Word to all mankind is not in control of His Word and that the bible as we have it today is not His Word and the scriptures that he wants us to believe and follow? Sorry for me that is simply to deny God's Word which is the only rule of faith when faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God *Romans 10:17.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    A QUESTION WORTH THINKING ABOUT

    How then dear friends can scripture not be the only rule of faith when we are saved by Gods' grace through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17? Without faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6 because whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 which is why Jesus says in John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. Therefore the scriptures are the only rule faith.

    God bless.
     
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