The Role of the Holy Spirit

Aussie Pete

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There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the role of the Holy Spirit. So as you know my background, I was saved and born again 50 years ago. I was baptised in water about a year later and with the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve, 1974. I have no doubt that all the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit are for today. I have some of the gifts of the Spirit which are expressed from time to time, as God deems necessary.

My concern is that the Holy Spirit is either ignored, as in cessationists, or overly emphasised, as happens in some Pentecostal circles. Cessation theology means loss to the church while a wrong emphasis leads to deception.

John 14:16 & 26. The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Advocate. The English word advocate has been translated from the Greek word parakleton, which means “helper, adviser, or counselor.
John 14:17. The world cannot receive the Holy Spirit. We need to know this fact. Some people claim to have received the Holy Spirit even though they were not saved.
John 15:26. The Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus! If what you are seeing and hearing is not testifying about Jesus, then it is the wrong spirit.
John 16:8-15 The Holy Spirit:
Convicts the world of sin. God only saves sinners. Those who have never been convicted of sin are not saved. The "invite Jesus into your heart" business is a false gospel.
Convicts the world of righteousness. When the world sees God's righteousness, conviction of sin follows instantly.
Convicts the world that indeed judgement is to come.

On the day of Pentecost, the listeners were "cut to the heart" (acts 2:37). They asked the question, "What must we do?" Too often, unbelievers come to a meeting and never hear any convicting truth. They leave in the same state that they arrived, even if they have "made a decision".

John 16:13-15 Berean study Bible:

"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you."

Above all, the Holy Spirit is Truth. Jesus is the Truth. God's word is Truth. Jesus is the Word. Satan is the Liar and Deceiver. There is order, even in the Godhead. God gives all that He has and is to Jesus. Jesus gives all that to the Holy Spirit. And The Holy Spirit gives it to us.

What the Holy Spirit is not is a circus act. He does not crow like a rooster or roll around on the floor. Spiritual meetings are orderly for God is not the God of confusion.

Christians who keep asking for "fire" need to be careful what they ask for. God may just answer one day. He will turn much of what we thought was spiritual to ashes. He does this anyway; there is no need to ask. However, God is not to be trifled with and we should show respect. The Lord taught us to pray "do not lead us into hard testing" for a reason.

Most of what I've heard about revival focuses almost entirely on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit focuses entirely on Jesus. So should we.
 

swordsman1

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My concern is that the Holy Spirit is either ignored, as in cessationists, or overly emphasised, as happens in some Pentecostal circles. Cessation theology means loss to the church while a wrong emphasis leads to description.

Cessationists certainly do not ignore the Holy Spirit. Although a small number of spiritual gifts appear to have ceased, cessationists agree the work of the Holy Spirit today is manifold: He convicts us of sin, He reveals Christ to us, He regenerates us, He indwells us, He baptizes us into the universal church (at salvation, not a 2nd blessing), He empowers us, He intercedes for us, He comforts us, He leads and guides us, He produces fruit in us, He sanctifies us, He makes us Christ-like, He gives us spiritual gifts, etc, etc.

What we do not do is attribute to the Holy Spirit, things that are clearly not of the Spirit as the bible describes them. We do not call tongues a non-human language. We do not call prophecy having a fuzzy feeling. We do not call partial recovery from an ailment the miraculous gift of healing. We do not call a missionary an apostle. What people today claim to be those gifts does not match the biblical description of those gifts.
 
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Leaf473

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There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the role of the Holy Spirit. So as you know my background, I was saved and born again 50 years ago. I was baptised in water about a year later and with the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve, 1974. I have no doubt that all the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit are for today. I have some of the gifts of the Spirit which are expressed from time to time, as God deems necessary.

My concern is that the Holy Spirit is either ignored, as in cessationists, or overly emphasised, as happens in some Pentecostal circles. Cessation theology means loss to the church while a wrong emphasis leads to deception.

John 14:16 & 26. The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Advocate. The English word advocate has been translated from the Greek word parakleton, which means “helper, adviser, or counselor.
John 14:17. The world cannot receive the Holy Spirit. We need to know this fact. Some people claim to have received the Holy Spirit even though they were not saved.
John 15:26. The Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus! If what you are seeing and hearing is not testifying about Jesus, then it is the wrong spirit.
John 16:8-15 The Holy Spirit:
Convicts the world of sin. God only saves sinners. Those who have never been convicted of sin are not saved. The "invite Jesus into your heart" business is a false gospel.
Convicts the world of righteousness. When the world sees God's righteousness, conviction of sin follows instantly.
Convicts the world that indeed judgement is to come.

On the day of Pentecost, the listeners were "cut to the heart" (acts 2:37). They asked the question, "What must we do?" Too often, unbelievers come to a meeting and never hear any convicting truth. They leave in the same state that they arrived, even if they have "made a decision".

John 16:13-15 Berean study Bible:

"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you."

Above all, the Holy Spirit is Truth. Jesus is the Truth. God's word is Truth. Jesus is the Word. Satan is the Liar and Deceiver. There is order, even in the Godhead. God gives all that He has and is to Jesus. Jesus gives all that to the Holy Spirit. And The Holy Spirit gives it to us.

What the Holy Spirit is not is a circus act. He does not crow like a rooster or roll around on the floor. Spiritual meetings are orderly for God is not the God of confusion.

Christians who keep asking for "fire" need to be careful what they ask for. God may just answer one day. He will turn much of what we thought was spiritual to ashes. He does this anyway; there is no need to ask. However, God is not to be trifled with and we should show respect. The Lord taught us to pray "do not lead us into hard testing" for a reason.

Most of what I've heard about revival focuses almost entirely on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit focuses entirely on Jesus. So should we.
Thanks for opening the thread.

Regarding our discussion here:
Fire - Ce Ce Winans

I agree that many Christian pop songs are not theologically exact. They are intended to convey a feeling imo.

Similar to the Psalms. I don't think there would be anything wrong with taking the following and setting it to music today, even though we know God won't forsake us.

Psalm 27:9
Don’t hide your face from me. Don’t put your servant away in anger. You have been my help. Don’t abandon me, neither forsake me, God of my salvation.

I agree that the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, we don't need to keep asking for him to come. And tongues of fire appeared above them. The tongues weren't the Holy Spirit (I don't think), but there is an association there imo.

A similar association occurs when John says that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
_____________
I hear what you're saying about odd behaviors. At the same time, this passage comes to mind:

Saul went there to Naioth in Ramah. Then God’s Spirit came on him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 He also stripped off his clothes, and he also prophesied before Samuel, and lay down naked all that day and all that night.

But definitely, the Holy Spirit always points to Jesus!
 
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Aussie Pete

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Cessationists certainly do not ignore the Holy Spirit. Although a small number of spiritual gifts appear to have ceased, cessationists agree the work of the Holy Spirit today is manifold: He convicts us of sin, He reveals Christ to us, He regenerates us, He indwells us, He baptizes us into the universal church (at salvation, not a 2nd blessing), He empowers us, He intercedes for us, He comforts us, He leads and guides us, He produces fruit in us, He sanctifies us, He makes us Christ-like, He gives us spiritual gifts, etc, etc.

What we do not do is attribute to the Holy Spirit, things that are clearly not of the Spirit as the bible describes them. We do not call tongues a non-human language. We do not call prophecy having a fuzzy feeling. We do not call partial recovery from an ailment the miraculous gift of healing. We do not call a missionary an apostle. What people today claim to be those gifts does not match the biblical description of those gifts.
I agree with you to an extent. However, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not what you state it to be. The Holy Spirit baptises us into Christ. Christ baptises us into the Holy Spirit. The first is for salvation, the second for power to serve in God's kingdom and be witnesses.

I don't know why you have an issue with "apostle" and "missionary". The former is from the Greek while the latter is the Latinised version of that word and means exactly the same thing.

My experience with Cessasionists goes back a long way. I've had discussions with some who believe that anything that is beyond natural is of the devil. I had a recent discussion with a Presbyterian pastor who told me that he would not accept anything that was not objective. It makes no sense to me. If Christianity is not something to experience, it is no better than the vain philosophies of worldly scholars.

What do you mean by spiritual gifts? I've had a number of gifts at various times. These include prophecy, discerning of spirits, healing (yes, the real thing), word of knowledge and word of wisdom. Some Cessasionists equate the ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher with spiritual gifts. I disagree.

Having said all that, Cessasionists are not the problem that the Church currently faces. And Lord Jesus is building His Church. He is greater than any problem that the Church faces.
 
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Soyeong

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There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the role of the Holy Spirit. So as you know my background, I was saved and born again 50 years ago. I was baptised in water about a year later and with the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve, 1974. I have no doubt that all the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit are for today. I have some of the gifts of the Spirit which are expressed from time to time, as God deems necessary.

My concern is that the Holy Spirit is either ignored, as in cessationists, or overly emphasised, as happens in some Pentecostal circles. Cessation theology means loss to the church while a wrong emphasis leads to deception.

John 14:16 & 26. The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Advocate. The English word advocate has been translated from the Greek word parakleton, which means “helper, adviser, or counselor.
John 14:17. The world cannot receive the Holy Spirit. We need to know this fact. Some people claim to have received the Holy Spirit even though they were not saved.
John 15:26. The Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus! If what you are seeing and hearing is not testifying about Jesus, then it is the wrong spirit.
John 16:8-15 The Holy Spirit:
Convicts the world of sin. God only saves sinners. Those who have never been convicted of sin are not saved. The "invite Jesus into your heart" business is a false gospel.
Convicts the world of righteousness. When the world sees God's righteousness, conviction of sin follows instantly.
Convicts the world that indeed judgement is to come.

On the day of Pentecost, the listeners were "cut to the heart" (acts 2:37). They asked the question, "What must we do?" Too often, unbelievers come to a meeting and never hear any convicting truth. They leave in the same state that they arrived, even if they have "made a decision".

John 16:13-15 Berean study Bible:

"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you."

Above all, the Holy Spirit is Truth. Jesus is the Truth. God's word is Truth. Jesus is the Word. Satan is the Liar and Deceiver. There is order, even in the Godhead. God gives all that He has and is to Jesus. Jesus gives all that to the Holy Spirit. And The Holy Spirit gives it to us.

What the Holy Spirit is not is a circus act. He does not crow like a rooster or roll around on the floor. Spiritual meetings are orderly for God is not the God of confusion.

Christians who keep asking for "fire" need to be careful what they ask for. God may just answer one day. He will turn much of what we thought was spiritual to ashes. He does this anyway; there is no need to ask. However, God is not to be trifled with and we should show respect. The Lord taught us to pray "do not lead us into hard testing" for a reason.

Most of what I've heard about revival focuses almost entirely on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit focuses entirely on Jesus. So should we.

God's nature is truth, God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142) and the sum of God's word is truth (Psalms 119:160) because it teaches us how to act in accordance with His nature, Jesus is the word of God made flesh and the living embodiment of the truth (John 1:14, John 14:6, John 17:17) because he is the exact expression of God's nature expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law (Hebrews 1:3), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13) because the Spirit has the role of leading to act in accordance with God's nature in obedience to His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and convicting us of sin, which is in transgression of it (John 16:8), and which is how the Spirit testifies about Jesus (John 15:26).

In Acts 2:37-38, when Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, God's law was how they knew what sin is. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Acts 7:51-53, those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), and God's law could not accurately be described in those terms if it did not teach us how to act in accordance with those aspects of God's nature.
 
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swordsman1

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The Holy Spirit baptises us into Christ. Christ baptises us into the Holy Spirit. The first is for salvation, the second for power to serve in God's kingdom and be witnesses.

All believers are baptised in the Holy Spirit as 1 Cor 12:13 makes clear:

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[a] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

If we are not baptised in the Spirit, we are not part of the body of Christ.

I believe it is therefore wrong to divide Christians into two classes: ordinary believers who have been born again, and a privileged group who have received a 2nd blessing of being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

I don't know why you have an issue with "apostle" and "missionary". The former is from the Greek while the latter is the Latinised version of that word and means exactly the same thing.

In scripture the term 'apostle' invariably refers to the unique band of eye-witnesses of the risen Lord, who have been appointed by Christ to be his authoritative spokesmen and who exhibit the marks of an apostle (performing miracles). ie the Twelve, Paul, and a handful of others ('the apostles'). The term should therefore be reserved for them only. By calling missionaries 'apostles' is wrongly elevating them to the same status. And I am sure the vast majority of missionaries themselves would balk idea of being called an apostle. Only the apostles had the spiritual gift of apostleship. And they are no longer with us.

If Christianity is not something to experience, it is no better than the vain philosophies of worldly scholars.

Yes, but we must be careful to view our experiences in the light of scripture, and not interpret scripture in the light of our experiences.

Some Cessasionists equate the ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher with spiritual gifts. I disagree.

But they are listed as gifts in 1 Cor 12:28, right alongside other gifts such as healing, miracles, tongues, administration, helps, etc.
 
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Aussie Pete

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All believers are baptised in the Holy Spirit as 1 Cor 12:13 makes clear:

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[a] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

If we are not baptised in the Spirit, we are not part of the body of Christ.

I believe it is therefore wrong to divide Christians into two classes: ordinary believers who have been born again, and a privileged group who have received a 2nd blessing of being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

It's not a privileged group. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is available to all to those who ask. It took me nearly 3 years to accept that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a separate experience from being born again. If the new believer is taught that it should be at the same time as the new birth, then often that's when they receive it. I was not taught that. There was much controversy in my day (early 1970's) as the so-called Charismatic renewal was just starting. A friend of mine was excommunicated for promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not long after, the pastor had a change of heart and received the Holy Spirit himself. The pastor was a traditional Baptist.

In scripture the term 'apostle' invariably refers to the unique band of eye-witnesses of the risen Lord, who have been appointed by Christ to be his authoritative spokesmen and who exhibit the marks of an apostle (performing miracles). ie the Twelve, Paul, and a handful of others ('the apostles'). The term should therefore be reserved for them only. By calling missionaries 'apostles' is wrongly elevating them to the same status. And I am sure the vast majority of missionaries themselves would balk idea of being called an apostle. Only the apostles had the spiritual gift of apostleship. And they are no longer with us.

That's the traditional view and it is wrong. An apostle is one who is sent. That's all. The 12 were the founding apostles. Some say that the real replacement for Judas was Paul. I don't know. But Barnabas, Apollos, Epaphroditis and James, were obviously apostles. Others like Andronicus and Junius may have been apostles. Why did Paul warn against false apostles? If there were only 12, it would be obvious that anyone claiming to be an apostle would be false.

Watchman Nee founded thousands of churches in China. He had little help. He was one of the most influential Christians of the 20th century, and I would say, in the history of the church. He certainly was an apostle. So were people Like Hudson Taylor and the other "missionaries" who were martyred for preaching the gospel.


Yes, but we must be careful to view our experiences in the light of scripture, and not interpret scripture in the light of our experiences.

I discern everything I see and hear according to God's word, if possible. That's why I reject supposed "supernatural" manifestations such as the Toronto Blessing. However, there are times when God leads me and there is no Bible verse to back it up. Often my only confirmation is the fruit of following that leading.


But they are listed as gifts in 1 Cor 12:28, right alongside other gifts such as healing, miracles, tongues, administration, helps, etc.
I take your point, but numbers of Cessasionists reject the spiritual gifts while accepting the other. Which is difficult to understand in the light of 1 Corinthians 12:28, as you so correctly say.

I don't know why so many believe that only the evangelist, pastor and maybe teacher are recognised gifts today. Sure, there are many self appointed ministries. God does not recognise them. I reject many who make the claim to be an apostle. Anyone who spends most of his time heading up a megachurch is not an apostle. There are way too many false prophets as well. That does not mean that there is not the real also.

This is not a matter of pride. God appoints who He chooses. That choice is often based on on attributes that men reject. God chooses the least, men choose the great. The role of pastor hardly gets a mention in the NT (twice, if I remember correctly) yet it is the dominant position in the church. Does that explain why the church bears so little resemblance to the description that we see in the NT? I believe it is because too much emphasis is placed on one ministry.
 
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swordsman1

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It's not a privileged group. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is available to all to those who ask. It took me nearly 3 years to accept that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a separate experience from being born again.

I don't see anywhere in scripture that says Christians are to ask for the baptism of the Spirit. As I said, 1 Cor 12:13 says all believers are baptised in the Spirit. Therefore it cannot be subsequent to salvation.

That's the traditional view and it is wrong. An apostle is one who is sent. That's all. The 12 were the founding apostles. Some say that the real replacement for Judas was Paul. I don't know. But Barnabas, Apollos, Epaphroditis and James, were obviously apostles. Others like Andronicus and Junius may have been apostles. Why did Paul warn against false apostles? If there were only 12, it would be obvious that anyone claiming to be an apostle would be false.
Watchman Nee founded thousands of churches in China. He had little help. He was one of the most influential Christians of the 20th century, and I would say, in the history of the church. He certainly was an apostle. So were people Like Hudson Taylor and the other "missionaries" who were martyred for preaching the gospel

As I said, the apostles consisted of the Twelve, Paul, and a handful of others. I would say Barnabas and James were almost certainly apostles, while the evidence for the others is less convincing.

The three qualifications for being an apostle were:
  • To be an eyewitness of the resurrection. As specified in Acts 1:22 when the Judas's replacement was chosen. Paul makes it clear he had also seen the risen Christ when he was defending his apostleship in 1 Cor. 9:1. Paul also said he was the last person to see the Lord in 1 Cor. 15:7–9.
  • To be specifically commissioned by the Lord to be an apostle. That applied to the twelve in Matt 10:1-7, Judas's replacement in Acts 1:24-26, Paul in Acts 26:16-17, Barnabas in Acts 13:2.
  • To exhibit the "the marks of a true apostle" - by performing signs, wonders and miracles (2 Cor 12:12).
You may want to call Watchman Nee an apostle in the modern sense of the word (eg. "J.Powell is an apostle of free-market economics") but Nee wasn't an apostle in the biblical sense of the word. Did he see Christ in the flesh? Was he personally appointed by Him to be an apostle? Did he demonstrate the marks of a true apostle by performing miracles. I don't think so.

Paul said apostles were the foundation of the Church along with Christ as the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). You only build a foundation once, at the very start of a construction project.

I take your point, but numbers of Cessasionists reject the spiritual gifts while accepting the other. Which is difficult to understand in the light of 1 Corinthians 12:28, as you so correctly say.

I don't know why so many believe that only the evangelist, pastor and maybe teacher are recognised gifts today. Sure, there are many self appointed ministries. God does not recognise them. I reject many who make the claim to be an apostle. Anyone who spends most of his time heading up a megachurch is not an apostle. There are way too many false prophets as well. That does not mean that there is not the real also.

Cessationists conclude that certain gifts have ceased on the basis that we no longer see them operating today as the bible describes those gifts. As I said in my first post, the bible does not describe apostles as missionaries, tongues as a non-human language, prophecy as a gut feeling, etc.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I don't see anywhere in scripture that says Christians are to ask for the baptism of the Spirit. As I said, 1 Cor 12:13 says all believers are baptised in the Spirit. Therefore it cannot be subsequent to salvation.



As I said, the apostles consisted of the Twelve, Paul, and a handful of others. I would say Barnabas and James were almost certainly apostles, while the evidence for the others is less convincing.

The three qualifications for being an apostle were:
  • To be an eyewitness of the resurrection. As specified in Acts 1:22 when the Judas's replacement was chosen. Paul makes it clear he had also seen the risen Christ when he was defending his apostleship in 1 Cor. 9:1. Paul also said he was the last person to see the Lord in 1 Cor. 15:7–9.
  • To be specifically commissioned by the Lord to be an apostle. That applied to the twelve in Matt 10:1-7, Judas's replacement in Acts 1:24-26, Paul in Acts 26:16-17, Barnabas in Acts 13:2.
  • To exhibit the "the marks of a true apostle" - by performing signs, wonders and miracles (2 Cor 12:12).
You may want to call Watchman Nee an apostle in the modern sense of the word (eg. "J.Powell is an apostle of free-market economics") but Nee wasn't an apostle in the biblical sense of the word. Did he see Christ in the flesh? Was he personally appointed by Him to be an apostle? Did he demonstrate the marks of a true apostle by performing miracles. I don't think so.

Paul said apostles were the foundation of the Church along with Christ as the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). You only build a foundation once, at the very start of a construction project.



Cessationists conclude that certain gifts have ceased on the basis that we no longer see them operating today as the bible describes those gifts. As I said in my first post, the bible does not describe apostles as missionaries, tongues as a non-human language, prophecy as a gut feeling, etc.
You and I do not agree on what an apostle is, so it's hard to discuss that aspect any further. Your interpretation of the gift tongues also differs from mine. I know that I have spoken in a language that is not human. I don't anymore as I lost the desire. I know that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can be a separate experience from being born again, because that is exactly what happened with me. I know that there is a gift of healing because I've been given that gift.

Do you know what prophet is? I do. My mentor of about 30 years was a prophet. It's not about predicting the future. It has to do with spiritual intuition, not a feeling at all. Not all who prophesy are prophets. It is also a spiritual gift as the Spirit chooses.

I don't know why you have a problem with apostle/missionary. Both words mean "messenger".

An apostle (/əˈpɒsəl/), in its literal sense, is an emissary, from Ancient Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), literally "one who is sent off", from the verb ἀποστέλλειν (apostéllein), "to send off". The purpose of such sending off is usually to convey a message, and thus "messenger" is a common alternative translation; other common translations include "ambassador" and "envoy". The term in Ancient Greek also has other related meanings.

The fundamental work of an apostle is to found local churches. Watchman Nee founded thousands of churches, with little help from foreign missions and a great deal of opposition because he refused to confine himself to one denomination. There certainly was the miraculous in his ministry. He himself was healed of tuberculosis, a death sentence in that era.

All Christians need to see the risen Lord, not with their natural eyes but with their inner, spiritual sight. Paul prayed that this might be so (Ephesians 1:18). It surely something that all Christians should seek with all their hearts. If all we depend on is reason and logic, we will not comprehend the things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13 & 14).
 
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Aussie Pete

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God's nature is truth, God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142) and the sum of God's word is truth (Psalms 119:160) because it teaches us how to act in accordance with His nature, Jesus is the word of God made flesh and the living embodiment of the truth (John 1:14, John 14:6, John 17:17) because he is the exact expression of God's nature expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law (Hebrews 1:3), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13) because the Spirit has the role of leading to act in accordance with God's nature in obedience to His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and convicting us of sin, which is in transgression of it (John 16:8), and which is how the Spirit testifies about Jesus (John 15:26).

In Acts 2:37-38, when Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, God's law was how they knew what sin is. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Acts 7:51-53, those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), and God's law could not accurately be described in those terms if it did not teach us how to act in accordance with those aspects of God's nature.

You entirely miss the point. There is nothing wrong with God's law. In fact, it is the shadow of what God really wants from His people. Jesus said that you do not have to do an adulterous act in order to commit adultery or physically kill someone to be a murderer.

What the Law cannot do is empower people to live according to God's righteous requirements. The opposite. The Law empowers us only to sin. If there was no law, there would be nothing to transgress. The law proves that we are utterly unable to keep the law. We are subject to the law of sin and death. I'm no longer under the Law (Galatians 5:18, Galatians 2:18). If you want to live in the shadows, that up to you. I prefer to live in the light.

God's remedy is to kill us. Pretty drastic, but that is the only solution. Who takes a dead man to court? Who brings a charge against him? Who demands that he goes to work or mows his lawns? We know that is absurd. So the Law also no longer applies to the Christian. Why? Because he died with Christ on the cross. God includes us in Christ when we believe.

We live now by a new principle, which is the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law has done its job which is to lead us to Christ. I came to Christ 50 years ago. Those who are bound by the Law are like prisoners of war who refuse to believe that their captors have been defeated. They are free, but they don't know it.
 
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Soyeong

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You entirely miss the point. There is nothing wrong with God's law. In fact, it is the shadow of what God really wants from His people.

A shadow testifies about the one who is casting it and it is impossible to remove someone from their shadow. As followers of Christ, we should live in a way that testifies about who is, if Passover teaches us something that is true about who Christ is, then we should live in a way that testifies about that truth by continue to observe Passover instead of a way that denies that truth by refusing to observe it. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke about how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connect of him being our Passover lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with continuing to keep it, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep it. In Colossians 2:17, Paul said that God's holy days are foreshadows of what is to come, so we again should live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come by continuing to keep them rather than a way that denies what is to come by refusing to keep them.

Jesus said that you do not have to do an adulterous act in order to commit adultery or physically kill someone to be a murderer.

If we correctly understand what is being command by the 7th Commandment against adultery and the 10th Commandment against coveting in our hearts, then we won't lust after a married woman in our hearts, so that is nothing brand new. Likewise, in Leviticus 19:17, we are commanded not to hate our brother. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so it is not clear to me that you don't think that is something that God really wants.

What the Law cannot do is empower people to live according to God's righteous requirements. The opposite. The Law empowers us only to sin. If there was no law, there would be nothing to transgress. The law proves that we are utterly unable to keep the law. We are subject to the law of sin and death. I'm no longer under the Law (Galatians 5:18, Galatians 2:18). If you want to live in the shadows, that up to you. I prefer to live in the light.

In Romans 7:12-25, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which held him captive, which was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh, so is the law of sin that empowers sin, not the Law of God. In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, however, if it empowered us to sin, then it would be sinful. When the Law of God reveals our sin, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, in Romans 7:5 the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase, and works in opposition to the Law of God. We have died to the law of sin in order to in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around, so verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we are utterly unable to keep. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, which are not burdensome, so to claim that we are utterly unable to obey them is to deny that anyone has ever loved God and to deny that His commandments are not burdensome. There are also a number of examples where the Bible records that people did keep the Law of God, such as in Joshua 22:1-3 and Luke 1:5-6. Furthermore, in Revelation 14:12, all those who kept faith in Jesus are those who kept God's commandments, and in Revelation 22:14, those who are given access to the Tree of Life are those who kept God's commandments.

There are many verses that describe God's law as being a light, such as Psalms 119:105, so in the name of preferring to live in the light you have ironically chosen not to live in the light.

God's remedy is to kill us. Pretty drastic, but that is the only solution. Who takes a dead man to court? Who brings a charge against him? Who demands that he goes to work or mows his lawns? We know that is absurd. So the Law also no longer applies to the Christian. Why? Because he died with Christ on the cross. God includes us in Christ when we believe.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law of God is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In addition, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in everything that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and that he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20), while you claiming that the Law of God no longer applies to Christians is undermining everything that Jesus did. Jesus did not go to the cross to free us from following him, so you have sadly died to the wrong law.

We live now by a new principle, which is the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law has done its job which is to lead us to Christ. I came to Christ 50 years ago. Those who are bound by the Law are like prisoners of war who refuse to believe that their captors have been defeated. They are free, but they don't know it.

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life. After all, the Law of God was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow. In Act 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of God, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of God. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God takes away our hearts of stone, gives us hearts of flesh, and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Law of God is truth. Furthermore, in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free, so in the name of being free from bondage you have ironically choses to be in bondage by rejecting the truth. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.

In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Law of God have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law leads us to Christ because it was given as a gift to teach us how to know him, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to him so that we can reject what he taught and go back to living in sin.
 
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swordsman1

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Your interpretation of the gift tongues also differs from mine. I know that I have spoken in a language that is not human. I don't anymore as I lost the desire.

Nowhere in scripture does it say tongues is a non-human language. The only definition is in Acts 2 where it is clearly described as miraculously speaking a foreign language. In fact the idea of tongues being a non-human language was unheard of in Christianity until the start of the Pentecostal movement at the beginning of the 20th century.

I know that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can be a separate experience from being born again, because that is exactly what happened with me.

What you call the baptism of the Spirit does not match the biblical description of it. No amount of 'experience' trumps God's word.

I know that there is a gift of healing because I've been given that gift.

Do you have a miraculous ability to instantly and completely heal a someone with a permanent disability with simply a command or a touch, as the disciples did? Praying for healing is not the gift of healing. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

Do you know what prophet is? I do. My mentor of about 30 years was a prophet. It's not about predicting the future. It has to do with spiritual intuition, not a feeling at all. Not all who prophesy are prophets. It is also a spiritual gift as the Spirit chooses.

I see nowhere in scripture that describes prophecy as spiritual intuition, extrasensory perception, telepathy, or anything of the sort. The Bible describes prophecy as audibly hearing words from the Lord. The process is described in 1 Sam 3 when Samuel first began to prophecy. Prophets often quoted the exact words spoken when they say "Thus says the Lord: <insert message here>" or words to that effect. If the Lord didn't say those precise words they were lying.

I don't know why you have a problem with apostle/missionary. Both words mean "messenger".

An apostle (/əˈpɒsəl/), in its literal sense, is an emissary, from Ancient Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), literally "one who is sent off", from the verb ἀποστέλλειν (apostéllein), "to send off". The purpose of such sending off is usually to convey a message, and thus "messenger" is a common alternative translation; other common translations include "ambassador" and "envoy". The term in Ancient Greek also has other related meanings.

The fundamental work of an apostle is to found local churches. Watchman Nee founded thousands of churches, with little help from foreign missions and a great deal of opposition because he refused to confine himself to one denomination. There certainly was the miraculous in his ministry. He himself was healed of tuberculosis, a death sentence in that era.


But that is not the usage of the word 'apostle' in the new testament. The word always refers to an apostle of Jesus Christ, someone who was an eye-witness of his resurrection and been personally commissioned by Him to be his authoritative spokesman, and given the ability to perform miracles. Being a missionary is not the definition of an apostle. In fact, most of the NT apostles were not renowned missionaries. And Philip the Evangelist, Silas, Aquila and Priscilla were missionaries in the NT but were not apostles.

All Christians need to see the risen Lord, not with their natural eyes but with their inner, spiritual sight. Paul prayed that this might be so (Ephesians 1:18). It surely something that all Christians should seek with all their hearts. If all we depend on is reason and logic, we will not comprehend the things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13 & 14).

The stated biblical qualification for an apostle was too physically see the risen Lord with their own eyes. That is because they were to be witnesses of his resurrection (Acts 1:8, 1:22, 10:41, 22:15).
 
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Aussie Pete

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Nowhere in scripture does it say tongues is a non-human language. The only definition is in Acts 2 where it is clearly described as miraculously speaking a foreign language. In fact the idea of tongues being a non-human language was unheard of in Christianity until the start of the Pentecostal movement at the beginning of the 20th century.



What you call the baptism of the Spirit does not match the biblical description of it. No amount of 'experience' trumps God's word.



Do you have a miraculous ability to instantly and completely heal a someone with a permanent disability with simply a command or a touch, as the disciples did? Praying for healing is not the gift of healing. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.



I see nowhere in scripture that describes prophecy as spiritual intuition, extrasensory perception, telepathy, or anything of the sort. The Bible describes prophecy as audibly hearing words from the Lord. The process is described in 1 Sam 3 when Samuel first began to prophecy. Prophets often quoted the exact words spoken when they say "Thus says the Lord: <insert message here>" or words to that effect. If the Lord didn't say those precise words they were lying.




But that is not the usage of the word 'apostle' in the new testament. The word always refers to an apostle of Jesus Christ, someone who was an eye-witness of his resurrection and been personally commissioned by Him to be his authoritative spokesman, and given the ability to perform miracles. Being a missionary is not the definition of an apostle. In fact, most of the NT apostles were not renowned missionaries. And Philip the Evangelist, Silas, Aquila and Priscilla were missionaries in the NT but were not apostles.



The stated biblical qualification for an apostle was too physically see the risen Lord with their own eyes. That is because they were to be witnesses of his resurrection (Acts 1:8, 1:22, 10:41, 22:15).
I know what I know. I read the same Bible as you and come to different conclusions. I'll not discuss this further.
 
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Aussie Pete

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A shadow testifies about the one who is casting it and it is impossible to remove someone from their shadow. As followers of Christ, we should live in a way that testifies about who is, if Passover teaches us something that is true about who Christ is, then we should live in a way that testifies about that truth by continue to observe Passover instead of a way that denies that truth by refusing to observe it. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke about how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connect of him being our Passover lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with continuing to keep it, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep it. In Colossians 2:17, Paul said that God's holy days are foreshadows of what is to come, so we again should live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come by continuing to keep them rather than a way that denies what is to come by refusing to keep them.



If we correctly understand what is being command by the 7th Commandment against adultery and the 10th Commandment against coveting in our hearts, then we won't lust after a married woman in our hearts, so that is nothing brand new. Likewise, in Leviticus 19:17, we are commanded not to hate our brother. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so it is not clear to me that you don't think that is something that God really wants.



In Romans 7:12-25, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which held him captive, which was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and which he served with his flesh, so is the law of sin that empowers sin, not the Law of God. In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, however, if it empowered us to sin, then it would be sinful. When the Law of God reveals our sin, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, in Romans 7:5 the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase, and works in opposition to the Law of God. We have died to the law of sin in order to in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around, so verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we are utterly unable to keep. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, which are not burdensome, so to claim that we are utterly unable to obey them is to deny that anyone has ever loved God and to deny that His commandments are not burdensome. There are also a number of examples where the Bible records that people did keep the Law of God, such as in Joshua 22:1-3 and Luke 1:5-6. Furthermore, in Revelation 14:12, all those who kept faith in Jesus are those who kept God's commandments, and in Revelation 22:14, those who are given access to the Tree of Life are those who kept God's commandments.

There are many verses that describe God's law as being a light, such as Psalms 119:105, so in the name of preferring to live in the light you have ironically chosen not to live in the light.



In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law of God is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In addition, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in everything that Jesus spent his ministry teaching and that he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20), while you claiming that the Law of God no longer applies to Christians is undermining everything that Jesus did. Jesus did not go to the cross to free us from following him, so you have sadly died to the wrong law.



In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life. After all, the Law of God was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow. In Act 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of God, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of God. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God takes away our hearts of stone, gives us hearts of flesh, and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Law of God is truth. Furthermore, in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free, so in the name of being free from bondage you have ironically choses to be in bondage by rejecting the truth. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.

In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Law of God have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law leads us to Christ because it was given as a gift to teach us how to know him, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to him so that we can reject what he taught and go back to living in sin.
Tell me once place where Jesus said that we must keep the sabbath. What about all the other feasts and observances? Jesus spoke about our attitude to other believers and to the world in general. He told us that the Sabbath was for man, not man for the Sabbath. I obey God's commands - love God, love the brethren, love my neighbour and love myself. All Christians are called to that. How that works out depends on the individual. I live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Christians must obey their conscience. If it is telling you to worship on Saturday, fine. Do as you are told. My conscience is clear. Every day is the Lord's day for me.

The Law has not changed but I have. I died to the Law so it no longer has any authority over me. I rose again to new life. I live by that law, not the law of Moses.
 
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Soyeong

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Tell me once place where Jesus said that we must keep the sabbath. What about all the other feasts and observances? Jesus spoke about our attitude to other believers and to the world in general. He told us that the Sabbath was for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, so we have no need for him to have repeated anything in order for us to know that we should still obey the Father. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of commands that was not in accordance with or contrary to what the Father taught. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had repeated nothing, and again we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). The vast majority of the people that Jesus interacted with were all Jews who had never known a period of their life when the Sabbath was not the focus of their week, so there was not a pressing need for him to tell them to keep the Sabbath holy, though Jesus did teach how to keep it holy through his example and through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic. Again, Jesus also called for people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), and God's law commands to keep the Sabbath holy (Exodus 20:8-11). Likewise, when Peter told his audience in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, and the NT repeatedly calls for us to repent from our sins and obey God. The fact that God made the Sabbath for man means that we should value it as a precious gift, not that we should spurn it and profane what is holy to God.

I obey God's commands - love God, love the brethren, love my neighbour and love myself. All Christians are called to that. How that works out depends on the individual.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and it could not accurately be described as such if it were not God's instructions for how to express those aspects of His nature. When we express an aspect of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are expressing our love for that aspect of who God is, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments. So all of the laws that God has chosen to give were specifically given for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of God's nature, and if someone refuses to obey one of His commandments, then they are expressing that they don't love that aspect of who God is, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23-24 that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, and if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings. The Sabbath teaches us something that is true about the nature of who God is and those who do not keep it holy do not love that aspect of who God is.

If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for God's other commandments, so the reason why they are the greatest two commandments is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. If someone refused obey God's command to help the poor, then they would have incomplete knowledge of what it means to love God and our neighbor, and the same goes for all of God's other commands.

I live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Christians must obey their conscience. If it is telling you to worship on Saturday, fine. Do as you are told. My conscience is clear. Every day is the Lord's day for me.

The Law has not changed but I have. I died to the Law so it no longer has any authority over me. I rose again to new life. I live by that law, not the law of Moses.

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit (after all the Spirit is God) and the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verse like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:21-22. Furthermore, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So those who live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ live in obedience to the Law of God, including keeping the Sabbath holy. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, but you've sadly died to the Law of God in order to be free to obey the law of sin.

Our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that even though he was not aware of anything against himself he was not justified. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with God's law, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not God's law, and needs to be informed by God's law in order to function correctly.

In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace God's law. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true Law of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone doesn't feel convicted about continuing to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, so we have no need for him to have repeated anything in order for us to know that we should still obey the Father. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of commands that was not in accordance with or contrary to what the Father taught. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had repeated nothing, and again we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). The vast majority of the people that Jesus interacted with were all Jews who had never known a period of their life when the Sabbath was not the focus of their week, so there was not a pressing need for him to tell them to keep the Sabbath holy, though Jesus did teach how to keep it holy through his example and through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic. Again, Jesus also called for people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), and God's law commands to keep the Sabbath holy (Exodus 20:8-11). Likewise, when Peter told his audience in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, and the NT repeatedly calls for us to repent from our sins and obey God. The fact that God made the Sabbath for man means that we should value it as a precious gift, not that we should spurn it and profane what is holy to God.



The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and it could not accurately be described as such if it were not God's instructions for how to express those aspects of His nature. When we express an aspect of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are expressing our love for that aspect of who God is, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments. So all of the laws that God has chosen to give were specifically given for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of God's nature, and if someone refuses to obey one of His commandments, then they are expressing that they don't love that aspect of who God is, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23-24 that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, and if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings. The Sabbath teaches us something that is true about the nature of who God is and those who do not keep it holy do not love that aspect of who God is.

If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for God's other commandments, so the reason why they are the greatest two commandments is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. If someone refused obey God's command to help the poor, then they would have incomplete knowledge of what it means to love God and our neighbor, and the same goes for all of God's other commands.



In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit (after all the Spirit is God) and the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verse like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:21-22. Furthermore, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So those who live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ live in obedience to the Law of God, including keeping the Sabbath holy. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, but you've sadly died to the Law of God in order to be free to obey the law of sin.

Our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that even though he was not aware of anything against himself he was not justified. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with God's law, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not God's law, and needs to be informed by God's law in order to function correctly.

In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace God's law. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true Law of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone doesn't feel convicted about continuing to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.
You reject God's word on the issue of the Law. You quote part of Romans 7 but blatantly ignore the point of Paul's teaching on the Law, as well as the rest of the NT. You take God's grace and put that back under the Law. I will leave you to your legalism.
 
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Soyeong

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You reject God's word on the issue of the Law. You quote part of Romans 7 but blatantly ignore the point of Paul's teaching on the Law, as well as the rest of the NT. You take God's grace and put that back under the Law. I will leave you to your legalism.

I do not reject God's word, but rejecting you interpreting God's word and speaking against obeying God's word. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law by word and by example, so I also reject you interpreting the rest of NT as speaking against following Christ.

While Paul spoke against works of the law and the law of sin, he was a servant of God, so he never spoke against anyone obeying the Law of God, but if you don't bother to distinguish which law he was speaking about, such as interpreting Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:11 as referring to the same law, then you turn him into speaking contradictory nonsense like that our faith upholds a law that is not of faith, and you'll make him out to be an enemy of God who spoke against obeying Him.

David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so we we consider them to be Scriptures and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), yet for some reason it makes sense to you to interpret Paul as speaking against doing what he delighted in doing, and as holding a view of God's law that is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so you reject God's grace to the extent that you reject His law. It is not legalism to think that followers of God should follow what He has commanded, but rather it is a sin not. The Bible has at least as much to say against lawlessness as it has to say against legalism, so both are in error.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I do not reject God's word, but rejecting you interpreting God's word and speaking against obeying God's word. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law by word and by example, so I also reject you interpreting the rest of NT as speaking against following Christ.

While Paul spoke against works of the law and the law of sin, he was a servant of God, so he never spoke against anyone obeying the Law of God, but if you don't bother to distinguish which law he was speaking about, such as interpreting Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:11 as referring to the same law, then you turn him into speaking contradictory nonsense like that our faith upholds a law that is not of faith, and you'll make him out to be an enemy of God who spoke against obeying Him.

David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so we we consider them to be Scriptures and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), yet for some reason it makes sense to you to interpret Paul as speaking against doing what he delighted in doing, and as holding a view of God's law that is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so you reject God's grace to the extent that you reject His law. It is not legalism to think that followers of God should follow what He has commanded, but rather it is a sin not. The Bible has at least as much to say against lawlessness as it has to say against legalism, so both are in error.
You have to keep going back to the OT because you have no concept of grace. I feel sorry for you.

In Romans 7, Paul was simply pointing out that knowing the law did not enable him to keep it. There is a new law for Christians, The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. You reject that in favour of words on stone. If the stones were so important, why did God not protect them? Where are they now? You put grace under law, and so remain a slave.
 
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Soyeong

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You have to keep going back to the OT because you have no concept of grace. I feel sorry for you.

In Romans 7, Paul was simply pointing out that knowing the law did not enable him to keep it. There is a new law for Christians, The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. You reject that in favour of words on stone. If the stones were so important, why did God not protect them? Where are they now? You put grace under law, and so remain a slave.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT in order to establish that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it, so they kept going back to the OT and you shouldn't have a problem with that.

Grace is not something new in the NT in opposition to God's righteousness in the OT, but rather graciousness and righteousness have always been compatible character traits of the same God that he expressed throughout both the OT and the NT (Exodus 34:6-7). Again, Psalms 119:29-30 shows that God was gracious to David by teaching him to obey His law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His gift of salvation, which is not something that is different in the NT, so you are the one who has no concept of grace.

The Mosaic Law teaches us how to act in accordance with the nature of the God of Israel, and the only way that the New Covenant could involve following a different set of laws would be if it were made with a different God with a different nature, but rather the New Covenant still involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. Changing the medium upon which the Mosaic Law is written from stone to our hearts does not change the content of what it instruct us to do, such as the command to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the command to honor our parents written on our heart. The New Covenant involves God protecting the Mosaic Law by writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that we will have justification for rejecting it.

Furthermore, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Spirit is not in opposition to the Father, so you have given no justification for thinking that the Law of the Spirit is something different than or contrary to what the Father has commanded. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed to be sin through His law. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in slavery while it is the truth that sets us free, not the other way around.
 
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