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Featured The rise of Islam in its spiritual context

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by mindlight, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    As a Christian I have often wondered why Islam has grown so much and at the reasons for its initial success. The contention of this thread is that God allowed Mohammed (whom most Christians consider to be a false prophet) because more good came out of his rising than bad. Basically by raising up an enemy of Christianity God has encouraged Christians to trust Him more , destroyed some insidious and deeply rooted heresies and got people talking about the Trinitarian and incarnational nature of God more than they would have done otherwise. Also he challenged the ways in which the state had encroached on personal freedom by raising up an oppressive opponent that would make people realise where a theocracy without free choice would ultimately lead. Also he destroyed a bunch of pagan idolatries in favour of worship of the One God.

    1) FAT, complacent Christians needed the challenge of the desert warriors to wake them up

    In context much of the Byzantine empire(Or Roman empire as it knew itself) still prospered within boundaries that had remained broadly secure for many of its inhabitants since before the days of Jesus. The Muslim invasions made many who were rich poor and removed many who were influential from power. They learnt once more what it meant to trust God and not in their own resources. For many that feeling of security and experience of prosperity and status that they had attached to Rome rather than God was gone forever.

    2) Doctrines were settled and formalised in a way that people were no longer challenged by the mystery and questions they posed. Or in a way that many people in the areas that were later conquered disagreed with but for false reasons.

    Some people were blindly repeating the creeds without wrestling with the mysteries and challenging questions they posed for our view of God. Some people like the Monophysites in the areas Islam conquered in the Byzantine world or the Nestorians of the Sassinid empire needed a wake up call.

    Interestingly the empires and nations that survived Islams golden age of expansion or ultimately triumphed over Islam and took back its conquered Christian territories were Trinitarian and incarnational in outlook. The nations or areas that fell entertained more heretical Christian positions by contrast. God spared the faithful and allowed the heretics to be subjugated being the basic lesson here.

    3) The Christian empire of Byzantium had encroached on the private realm of faith to a considerable extent in order to mobilise forces and motivation for its war against the Sassinid empire.

    In the name of God it fought its wars and encroached increasingly on individual freedoms on order to win a desperate struggle for survival. n doing so it forgot or neglected the freewill at the heart of the Christians walk with God. The Christian state had become itself quite Islamic in its approach and needed the wake up call of an oppressive theocracy to bring it back to its early years.

    4) Islam was the force that ultimately destroyed the Nestorian heretics of Persia and much of central Asia.

    The areas of the Byzantine empire that fell had strong monophysistic tendencies. The Sassanid empire had a more Nestorian outlook

    5) The pagan idolaters of Mecca and the wider area were utterly wiped out by Islam in favour of worship of the One God

    One could argue that no Christian would seriously miss the idolatry that Islam exposed and destroyed.

    So my question to Muslims is:

    Given the real reasons for your rise and the real fruit of that rise why would you think of your faith as anything more than a challenge for Christians , who should know better, to think a little harder about their faith and to trust God a lot more?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  2. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Someone please inform the Chalcedonian majorities of Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. of this. I'm sure they'll be mightily amused.

    Ditto the above to the Armenians, the largest single Christian population in Iran. In the Sassanid Empire overall, the Christians were split between Nestorians and Syriac Orthodox.

    I don't know if you intended it this way or not, but your post really does read like Islamic propaganda.

    If you did intend that, I would suggest that this thread be deleted.

    If you didn't, you should probably rethink some of your assumptions and maybe study a little bit more about what the Christians of the time you're asking about (Islam's rise) had to say. I would recommend the scholar Sidney H. Griffith's Syriac Writers on Muslims and the Religious Challenge of Islam (St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute, Kottayam, India 1994), which agrees with some of what you have said (e.g., Christians of the region of Roman Syria and further East often rationalized Islam's rise by saying that they had been lax in their observance of the faith, which led many to abandon it when Islam came), but refutes quite a lot of it (e.g., Islam overturning idolatry and pagan barbarism), as do many other sources (see here Hoyland's critical collection of primary sources from Christian, Zoroastrian, and other sources Islam as Others Saw It).
     
  3. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The Christians in these areas have been emigrating in recent years but survived a thousand years of Islam before that. The ones with the heretical tendencies converted to Islam in the aftermath of the Islamic conquests. So the Dome of the Rock for instance was probably originally built by Christians who had serious questions about the Trinity and favoured Arius over Athanasius for instance. Arianism was quite strong in many of the conquered areas and possibly these conquests were easier because many saw Islam as a return to Monotheism.

    The point is that the Nestorians were mainly annihilated by the 14 Century while Trinitarian and Incarnational Christians survived (The Armenians considered Chacedon quite Nestorian by the way). It was the Ottoman Turk who finally martyred many of the Armenian and Greek Christians within their borders by the genocides of the twentieth century. These people died for Christ they did not fade out or get absorbed like the heretics

    The thread is asking why Islam rose. I am saying there were some good Christian reasons why it was allowed to rise by the Christian God. It was faithful Christians whether within or without the territories of Islam that survived this test of fire while the heretics did not.

    Yes one of the intentions of this thread is to provoke such discussion. I am aware that much of the Islamic world is as superstitious and idolatrous today as it was back then although in more subtle ways. This is not a religion that transforms people so much as punishes them for unbelief and nonconformity and sifts out the weak from amongst the church. But idolaters like those of Mecca were expunged by Islam.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  4. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    I might just add something. I think the strategy for Muslims to disseminate Islam is in reproduction.

    Look at Egypt, my home country, it was invaded by Muslim mobs in the 7th century and since Christians were not a minority back then, Muslims needed a strategy to be the majority. Reproduction.

    The population of Egypt today is around 100 millions. A tiny fraction of these are Christians, maybe 10 millions or something. (I don't consider Egypt to be a proper country anymore, the huge population growth destroyed it and the sharia law ruined it)

    Look at western countries today, Muslims follow the same convention, they can marry up to 4 women and they give birth to an endless number of children. This is how they grow. They don't use swords anymore to disseminate Islam because sword is the last step, once they outnumber everyone.

    I remember reading a post from a Muslim girl (university student) where she was talking about how her mom is pushing her to get married. They obligate their daughters to get married in order to increase their numbers.

    Look at me as a bigot, look at me as an uneducated idiot. Fine. But I lived most of my life in Egypt and I know how real Islam looks like. And trust me, the western far left will never understand or learn unless they see the real face of Islam.

    (This post by no means targets all Muslims, there are good Muslims and I know some of them personally and love them)
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 5:45 PM
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  5. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    That would be a major reason for the growth of Muslim populations today as would the much younger age of Muslim brides. Just 10 years old in the case of Aisha for instance. There does seem to be some purposeful intent in having large families also. But just to clarify polygamy is illegal in Europe and Muslims would not be outbreeding Christians were it not for high rates of abortion amongst many Christians and also because many Christians are really quite complacent on this issue and prefer to put their careers and lifestyles above large family or a consideration of the faith. It is a different kind of rot to the one that Islam exploited in its earliest days but it is a rot nonetheless.

    The basic idea of this thread is that Islam grows by exploiting Christian sins and heresies and that historically Islam has been rolled back, in Spain, the Balkans, in Israel, in India by a much stronger more revived Christianity than that which prevails in the West today. Sexual purity and a willingness to fight and die for what is right being two things missing from the Christian outlook in the current era.
     
  6. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    I see your point but I don't see its relevance with Coptic Christians for instance. Most Coptic Christians work hard to maintain their faith and a very conservative lifestyle, why do they have to suffer their whole lives under the sharia law and its oppression then?
     
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  7. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    They were not conquered for the reason of their own sins but the sins of those who called themselves Christians and came a millennia before them. That SHOULD be a wake up call to Christians in the West who have held themselves to a lower standard for a few generations now. Will we swap our freedoms for a thousand years of oppression for the sake of our sins or will we repent and pray for a revival that will turn the situation around?

    There have of course been moments in Egypts history where they could have chosen a different path under Nasser, under the Mamluks, under the British.

    But yes if I were living in Egypt right now I would be praying that question. My own view is that the answer is "get out now". God is handing the country over to an oppressive evil that will ultimately destroy it and much of the Middle East. Christians have been voting for a hundred years with their feet and that seems to be Gods plan for his people.

    God is not about territories so much as about his people. Just cause you live somewhere for 2000 years does not make it home. Home is where God calls you and where you can be genuinely free to worship him.

    100% Muslim territories will most likely be turned in deserts by overpopulation and bad management or radioactive deserts by war. You do not want to be the one Christian left when Sodom and Gomorrah begins.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  8. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    I wish if it was easy for us Coptics to escape Egypt. Western countries reject us. A Coptic Christian has to go through a lot of hassle to apply for asylum and it might end up with rejection. (while a Muslim can get it very easily because of the far left support)

    Read Mary's story, she is still struggling just because she wanted a better life for her family.
    This Coptic Family are Stranded in Seoul Airport Facing Deportation to Egypt | Al Bawaba
    (I know that SK is not a western country, but it is the same scenario, my family suffered as well)

    We are prisoners in Egypt my friend with no way out. We need a 2nd Exodus to escape that hell.
     
  9. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Yep praying for a second Exodus before it is too late.

    Many Christians have come to Europe from Syria and Iraq, many Muslims have also converted and I have seen some of them being baptised. But Egyptians are mainly viewed as economic migrants from a failed state rather than oppressed people fleeing persecution. It is a shame that many in authority lack moral clarity on this issue and fail to see that Islam is the reason for both the persecution and the failure of the Egyptian economy to provide jobs for a population that already exceeds the sustainable capacity of that countries resources.
     
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  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    This thread is so full of arrogance and bad assumptions, I don't think it can be salvaged. Maybe don't tell people in other countries and churches what to do when you can't keep straight whether you want to blame them for Islam or not based on hoary old lies about what they believe and do.

    I am happy in my Orthodox Church that we say
    نسجد لاسم الثالوث الرب الاله العظيم الواحد فى اللاهوت المثلث الاقانيم and that the Muslims martyr us for it. If they are going to kill you anyway, you should die for that, and if you can't understand it (and I don't mean the language; you can use Google and see where I found it and what it means, I mean the faith behind it), then don't comment on the Middle Eastern 'monophysites' in the first place.

    As for leaving Egypt, we said in my parish we praise God for those who come (immigrate) and for those who do not. Everyone is where God places them, and if the Coptic Orthodox Church is today the church of more martyrs than most, then good. It is not a competition, but as HH Pope Tawadros II said in his interview on 60 Minutes to the U.S. reporter, of course the Church must produce martyrs. We are proud to be that Church. You don't understand it and call us heretics and blame us for Islam, fine. Go ahead and do that. We faced 200 years of oppression under the Byzantines after Chalcedon before the Arabs came anyway, so it is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Only the Arabs didn't come professing Christianity to begin with, so it just makes the Byzantines look worse by comparison. They tortured fellow Christians like St. Samuel of Qalamun, and took many of our churches, and the Byzantine emperor even gave a Coptic girl as a gift to Muhammad (she bore him an illegitimate son through his rape of her). Why don't you people ever answer for that, instead of both putting us on historical trial for made-up heresies and pitying us and acting like we're going to vanish if we don't come to your countries that are themselves capitulating to Islam right now much more willingly than we ever did?

    The Copts and our fellow OO brothers (together with some Chalcedonians in some places, actually) fought Islam for centuries, but you won't highlight the places where we won, like Axum and Armenia (Armenians actually first won their right to worship from the Zoroastrian Persians via the Battle of Avarayr in 451, centuries before Islam even existed; though they lost that particular battle militarily, they forced the Persians to make the treaty which guaranteed the Armenians freedom to practice Christianity), because that doesn't fit your ideas as you've expressed them in this thread.

    I hope the Copts stay in Egypt forever, no matter what their number. And they will. It is their homeland and their country. They built it themselves. The Muslims are just occupiers, and in the end Islam will be torn out at its roots, just like everything that was not planted by God (Matthew 15:13). I have seen it myself as serious Muslims have turned to Coptic priests to learn their common ancestors' language, recognizing that the Arab identity of Egypt is a sham, and with it so too falls the entire structure introduced by the Arabs' religion which places Copts and other non-Muslims in a secondary or worse status.

    They can even jail the Muslims who recognize this (as they have with the brave writer Fatima Naoot in the video below; her last name is obviously Coptic :)), but they cannot stop it from being recognized. And it will be recognized, as even the Muslims' Qur'an says that truth stands clear from error. Amen.



    So no need to worry. We will continue to pray and fast, as we always have (NB: I am not myself an ethnic Coptic person; I am talking about "we" as in our Church). The West, however, is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, as its faith is weak, and it cannot handle martyrdom...I just wonder how in the future that will somehow be the fault of others, too...
     
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  11. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Related: Coptic Orthodox orphan's prayer "I'll die, but I'll die in faith":



    Do you still want to lecture these people and their churches on all of their 'sins' and 'heresies' that you say are responsible for Islam, when no one in the West outside of these churches can even understand this, let alone say it?



    I could post videos like this forever. It's in your future, but instead you start a thread like this, blaming the very people taking the brunt of it because you are too removed.

    And how many Turks are in your country of Germany? Since we all know how 'tolerant' they are. Hmmm...maybe the Lutheran Church screwed up somewhere and brought the Muslims upon their country then, to grow more and more belligerent and join terrorist groups (wasn't there a cell in Hamburg, and then some famous rapper who joined ISIS or something, and so on?). That's your reasoning here, so maybe try applying it yourself and see how it works out. You'll probably reject it, as you should.
     
  12. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    Well, we have to disagree at something. Many Coptic Orthodox Christians are not happy with Twadros II and they believe he is a main reason we cannot leave Egypt or get our rights.

    He keeps on claiming that Christians and Muslims are living in harmony which is not true. When a Christian girl is kidnapped and forced to Islam in upper Egypt the police is useless and stands with the oppressors! Twadros sees all of this yet he supports the Egyptian government because he is afraid of the consequences.

    I don't praise God for seeing my sister being kidnapped and rapped by a mob and then converted to Islam, I'm sorry, I won't praise God for such a thing. In fact, this tears me apart because I feel like a useless coward who cannot defend those minorities.

    I was a Coptic Orthodox one day. Twadros was a contributing reason I left the Orthodox faith.

    However, all denominations have their fair share of corruption so I'm better off this way, but again, if I can bring all the minorities out of Egypt I will. Including oppressed Muslim women! Including children and atheists, including anyone who should live free and cannot find that freedom under the sharia law.

    Sorry if I sounded too brittle, I was an Orthodox one day and I see your point. Maybe that's why I'm writing this post now.
     
  13. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I hear you, my friend. I'm not saying we're all perfect or that you should be happy that horrible tragedies have happened to your family. I have friends from church who have also gotten phone calls at 3 A.M. (here in the USA) from Egypt saying that their cousin was kidnapped, raped, and forcibly converted to Islam. Not being an ethnic Egyptian, I cannot even imagine the horror and pain involved in that. Lord have mercy. We don't rejoice over that. It is more a matter of defending our faith even as those things happen, rather than looking to others about how we can blame them for what has happened, like this thread where group X or group Y is responsible for something that they weren't responsible for because the OP doesn't know the histories of the people he or she is talking about except from outside sources that repeat old lies about us and blame us for everything.

    The problems with HH...I have some too, though I am sure they are different than the Egyptians' problems and more related to my previous faith (Roman Catholic) and my own misgivings about it, which aren't really on the radar of the average Egyptian...but still, it is not for HH or anyone to have such an impact, as though we are like the RCC and have such a view of our Pope where he cannot err, or ought to be treated as though he can't. I don't know precisely what you're talking about when you say HH is the reason why many can't leave Egypt, but obviously Copts are still doing so, so if there is some kind of edict that I don't know about, it isn't being followed (kind of like how I know Copts who have visited Jerusalem, even though that ban has been in place since before HH Pope Tawadros II). So maybe HH is wrong about whatever is causing people to feel like they can't leave Egypt. From what my friend from church said about the last time he was there (during the MB/Morsi days), he could not wait to leave again, and said he would never go back. He said even in the cities (I can't remember where went; it was for his niece's wedding), it felt more like he was in Yemen or Saudi Arabia than Egypt. The MB and strict Islamic enforcement made Egypt into something other than what it naturally is (according to my friend), just like the invading Arabs originally did. That's why I'm trying to warn the OP that rather than looking into the past for someone to blame, s/he ought to look to the future in Europe and get ready to adopt the kind of faith that embraces martyrdom, because it is surely coming.

    You don't have to be Orthodox to see that:

    “Your liberal and democratic principles are worth nothing here. You must consider again our reality in the Middle East, because you are welcoming in your countries an ever growing number of Muslims. Also you are in danger. You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles.”

    “You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal. Your values are not their values.”

    “If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home.”


    -- Address of Chaldean Catholic Archbishop of Mosul HE Emil Nona to Christians in the West (in full here)

    That said, I pray that you will return to Orthodoxy, the faith of our fathers from St. Mark until today, and that you may be fed by God wherever you may go.
     
  14. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Personally I think it arrogant to consider ones own church has a monopoly on suffering. All true Christians feel the pain of rejection by the world and many in the West have lost jobs and opportunities for failing to comply with a political correct agenda for instance. Yes atheists, gay lobbies and extreme Feminists are a different kind of evil but they can be just as oppressive in their own way. Yes the stakes are much higher in a Muslim dominated country right now as they have a recent history of killing Christians for their commitment but you do not have a monopoly on the sufferings of Christ.

    Second the Monophysite heresy , which was itself a reaction to Nestorianism was itself a problem and left the nonChalcedonian churches that held to it in a weaker position and vulnerable to the expansion of Islam indeed Arianism and these were the main theological weaknesses of the region in the time before the invasions. Miaphysitism is not really in line with the Chalcedonian creed agreed by the majority of the historical church and is a fudge on the mystery of how Christ can hold his humanity and Divinity in tension in the same person. These natures being distinct but united in Christ. Fully Man and fully God in One person. Oriental churches are dominated by oppressive governments while Protestant and Catholic ones have many examples of free and prosperous states with freedom of worship. Yes you suffer for your faith but then you have stubbornly held to an error for more than a thousand years.

    I respect the Copts desire to stand fast for their country and church in the face of an oppressive and .increasingly aggressive Islam and an indifferent and compromised West. I also agree Western Christians are not equipped for this kind of levels of persecution, but nor I hope will they accept it as a new normal. Christians are sons and daughters of the King of Kings and those in power who abuse them will be held to account.

    Maybe by diminishing the value attached to Christs humanity, to his full humanity Miaphysites devalue the worth of their own and the freedoms that they deserve. It was Chalcedonian Greeks who held fast to the faith and then rebelled against the Ottomans when the time came and achieved their freedom. But the Coptic church has inexorably surrendered its preeminent position and now considers martyrdom to be the standard of glory in the church. You do not stop a bully by simply getting out of his way and dying for him. You fight or you leave. If it is too late to fight then it is time to leave. But I cannot believe that most Muslims actually enjoy being a part of this mass oppression. Indeed the large numbers of them seeking opportunity in Europe says exactly that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  15. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    Thank you for your kind wishes and words. Also when I said my sister I meant my sister in Christ.

    Twadros was a main reason 20 families were rejected asylum in Australia, he is a continuous source of trouble to those who want to escape Egypt so long as he keeps on denying the Islamic persecution to minorities in Egypt. Here is two of the sources:
    مصدر كنسي عن طلب ٢٠ أسرة قبطية اللجوء لأستراليا: البابا راعى صورة مصر والبعد الإنساني
    البابا يدعو أستراليا لقبول اللجوء السياسى لـ20 أسرة قبطية: "مصر بها مشاكل وبلد جريح" (بيان رسمى) - القاهرة 24

    I will try to find the English equivalents, give me some time please.
     
  16. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Which is why I didn't say that. "Producing more than others" doesn't mean "We're the only Church that suffers." How many martyrs at the hands of the Muslims have you seen for the Presbyterians lately, or the Lutherans, or the whoevers? Maybe incidentally (like if those people happen to join the US Army, then the US Army goes to Iraq or wherever), but they're not targeted like the native Christians are. The country we happen to be talking about is mostly Orthodox, and so we're talking about its native/national Orthodox Church, but if we were talking about another country where the religious demographics are different, say, Lebanon, we could be talking about Maronite (Catholic) martyrs, or in Palestine about Greek Orthodox or Greek Catholic martyrs, etc.. Don't make my post about something other than what it is, please.

    So an extreme group of gay atheist feminists routinely kidnap and rape Christians for being Christians in the West? I hadn't heard of this, and I live in the West.

    No. Not the same. Not even close. Not "just as oppressive". Talk to some of the people you have slandered in your OP and hear what they go through, and you will hopefully change your tune.

    Again, that's why I didn't say that we do.

    There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. Lord help this person. Why should I bother to correct you in anything when you hold to such views? Will you magically reverse your cultural chauvinism and pride in not the Cross but the form of government that (for now) reigns in your countries? Whatever happened to "place not your trust in princes"?

    You are entirely ignorant of Oriental Orthodox theology and even just the basic facts of history concerning the Chalcedonian schism, and until you learn those basics, it is a waste of bandwidth to entertain your fantasy alternate history nonsense. I will stick with what I wrote earlier, which is that we prostrate at the name of the Holy Trinity, the Great God, one in divinity and three in Person. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with much more than Oriental Orthodoxy, as that is a statement to which all Nicene Christians should agree, and that is our faith. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I don't believe you respect the Copts at all, or any of the OO, from how you have just written about us earlier in this same reply. You are yet another ignorant CHalcedonian telling us our business when you don't understand thing one of what you are talking about. Enough of that. You don't rule Egypt anymore, either. Deal with it rather than playing the blame game.
     
  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Ah, I see. Still, Lord have mercy.

    Thank you for those resources. My Arabic is not great (it's my fourth and newest language, starting from lessons in college ten years ago, and then continuing only through church since 2011), but I will understand the gist of them, God willing. I would like to ask, though, since we already have an OP who is hostile to the Oriental Orthodox Christians, that if you wish to continue to talk about this (and I really am interested; it does not seem right at all that HH would or even could deny the oppression that his people face) that we please do so either via PM or in its own dedicated thread on the Voice of the Desert (Oriental Orthodox subforum here on CF), where it is more appropriate and where we can speak freely. Thank you.
     
  18. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    Source 1: Twadros claiming that Christians are returning to Egypt.
    The Pope of Hope: Egypt’s Tawadros II on status of Copts, regional politics and Saudi reforms

    He says "Christians feared for their lives and fled the country. When the country regained its stability, a lot of them returned to Egypt. Christian emigration rates have dropped significantly.”

    Source 2: Twadros reluctant to help the 20 families.
    Pope Tawadros II reluctant to comment on Coptic families facing deportation

    They are not the same sources as above but they are enough to prove the point that he is on the negative side.

    (there is sound in source 2, you might need to reduce volume before opening that one)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  19. Yennora

    Yennora Buy the truth and sell it not. Pro 23:23

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    Sure, I can leave the thread for you both to resume. But please, don't fight each others, I believe the spirit of Christ is prevailed in wise dialogue and not in hostility :) All the love to you both.

    @mindlight @dzheremi
     
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  20. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    This thread seems to have generated some bad feelings and I apologise for my own contribution to that. I also can bow prostrate at the name of the Holy Trinity, the Great God, one in divinity and three in Person.

    But I do have unanswered questions which really boil down to one. How could a country that was a majority Christian state allow itself to be dominated by a false religion and a bunch of various assorted Islamic thugs for more than a millennia to the point that its very existence is now threatened?
     
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