The righteousness of God in His decre that evil take place.

[Oldmantook]

Apparently, cafeteria Christianity will save those that focus only on the verses they prefer. Here are some more verses, for those that think they're reading God's word but are only cherry-picking what they want to hear to deceive themselves:
"everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man"Matt7:26 and complete will be his destruction.
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"2Pet2:12
"And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." 2Peter3:7
" It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God." Heb 10:31
"for our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29"

Unfortunately, all the verses you cited while true, have nothing to do with addressing the stated will of God. It would have been better for you to have remain focused on God's expressed will.

Universalism is a pleasant and hopeful concept, but is not scripturally sound based off of a couple verses which are easily seen to be contingent upon 100 other verses not coming to pass according to God's will; neither is Univeralism allowed to be preached on Christian forums.

I could easily have cited more verses but Universalism is not the subject of this thread so I limited myself to those verses I recall that do deal with God's will.

Again, for those that can hear, God did not desire for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but He allowed it because their disobedience was in the realm of possibility. If it were not possible to go wrong, He would not have warned against it.

God's permissive will in the Garden is always ultimately in agreement with this his absolute will. The former results in the latter.

If you knew the living Word is Jesus the Christ, written and living in the hearts of the truly saved, then you would not be using the written word as an idol, which is merely an image of dead ink on dead paper that will not save anyone (John 5:39). This really seems like someone is clinging to a couple verses out of sheer terror, in the hopes they will be saved on that day by saying "see, look here, I have these two verses that say you gotta let me in!". Be sure to show those verses to everyone outside the city "the dogs--the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie." Rev15:22

I will use your own citation against you which is the best way of undermining your claim since what you believe to be one of your best arguments is qjuite ironically one of your weakest. It is true that the lake of fire is situated outside of the New Jerusalem and that the unsaved reside there. The unsaved would certainly include all of those sworn enemies of God who aligned themselves with mystery Babylon and warred against the Lord. Several times in Revelation, these certain enemies are referred to as the "kings of the earth." The question is, since these kings of the earth are the unsaved enemies of Jesus who battle against Him, they of course end up in the lake of fire - but why are the allowed to enter the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:24. I'll let you do you own study if you are so disposed.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes and that subjugation will lead to the Kingdom or extinction.

So then God's stated will is never accomplished huh? So much for sovereignty.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is not man's free will ultimately subject to God's will - which is sovereign? God allows free will but ultimately all without exception, are subject to his will.

No.

 

[Oldmantook]

God can "will" that all men be saved and yet not all will be saved. It is just as a judge or a general can "will" that their loved one who is a murderer or a spy not be put to death.

That is a ridiculous comparison. You are comparing God's sovereign will with man's will. God's will IS sovereign. Man's will IS NOT sovereign. Apparently you are ignorant of this basic difference.

If you don't know the difference between the "wills" of God you need to hit the books.

Same as above so you should follow your own advice.

One more time ---- go and study again about the wills of God in any good systematic theology book. Then return and perhaps take another avenue of argument if you feel you must.

Your presumption is quite evident but again mistaken. I actually graduated from seminary. And you?

 

[timothyu]

So then God's stated will is never accomplished huh? So much for sovereignty.

Of course it is. He has separated the grain from the tares in order to populate His next creation. This one is going the way of the phone booth.

 

[Oldmantook]

No.

Care to elaborate?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So then God's stated will is never accomplished huh? So much for sovereignty.

Why is there
such rebellion against Yahweh and Yahweh's Plan and Purpose in Salvation?

Did Yahweh decide you would not believe His Word and make it so ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Of course it is. He has separated the grain from the tares in order to populate His next creation. This one is going the way of the phone booth.

Not until it is time. He has not separated the tares yet, nor have His angels who will do so when He directs them to.

 

[Oldmantook]

Of course it is. He has separated the grain from the tares in order to populate His next creation. This one is going the way of the phone booth.

The tares are not saved so just how does that line up with God's will that all men be saved? You keep avoiding answering that basic question.

 

[Oldmantook]

Why is there
such rebellion against Yahweh and Yahweh's Plan and Purpose in Salvation?

Did Yahweh decide you would not believe His Word and make it so ?

Rebellion? How so? Does not God's word state that it is his desire is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20)? You seem to have a problem with God's stated will don't you?

 

[timothyu]

Does not God's word state that it is his desire is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20)?

His desire is still based on the right choice of man. If we dash His hopes for us, so be it. Wouldn't have a book of life otherwise. God is not a dictator or oppressive. Will He throw tantrum and pout if he doesn't get his way like some human leaders?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The tares are not saved so just how does that line up with God's will that all men be saved? You keep avoiding answering that basic question.

God answered it. Read it in the NT.
Ask God for revelation from heaven - without revelation, there is no ability to understand.

 

[timothyu]

how does that line up with God's will that all men be saved?

His hopes are not a reality but a hope, again the result of which He has put in our hands; All through the Bible he gives choice... man's will or his will. Not everyone who says Lord Lord is getting in.

 

[His student]

Your presumption is quite evident but again mistaken. I actually graduated from seminary.

Oh - I know that - as do many others here. You've blown that trumpet many times here in the forum.

And you?

No.

That is a ridiculous comparison. You are comparing God's sovereign will with man's will. God's will IS sovereign. Man's will IS NOT sovereign. Apparently you are ignorant of this basic difference.

Everyone knows that there is a difference.

And yes - I have placed God's will juxtaposition with that of a human judge who loves his offspring even as he passes judgement on him.

And, no - it is not ridiculous any more than the parables and metaphors of our Lord are ridiculous.

You seem to be a bit pugnacious. I certainly hope that you are not serving as an elder - even with your seminary degree.

If you don't know the difference between the "wills" of God you need to hit the books.

........ you should follow your own advice.

I have studied the difference between the absolute and permissive will of God. I know the difference. It is you who apparently do not.

This is all very straight forward. You just seem to want to argue.

 

[Roidecoeur78]

The tares are not saved so just how does that line up with God's will that all men be saved? You keep avoiding answering that basic question.

Rebellion? How so? Does not God's word state that it is his desire is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20)? You seem to have a problem with God's stated will don't you?

Over and over, like a broken record, repeating its master's doctrine of conflict and confusion. Somehow agrees to "the tares are not saved", but disputes that this means not all will be saved; went to seminary, just like all the Catholic priests that were obviously neither made righteous nor saved by attending seminary (just how many demons have been born from the seminary anyway?). Disingenuously dodges any overt admission of preaching Universalism, while continuing to campaign for it. Yet, for some reason, is to be held as an authority on what God's will is because Oldmantook says so, is that about right?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh - I know that - as do many others here. You've blown that trumpet many times here in the forum.

As also most who even ever went to semitary lost their faith if they had it to start with,
and others grew stronger as enemies of the one true gospel of Jesus, preaching instead well known and exposed false gospels.

 

[timothyu]

We are all trumpet blowers but the question is, is it for the Kingdom of God or the religion and will of man?

 

[Oldmantook]

Over and over, like a broken record, repeating its master's doctrine of conflict and confusion. Somehow agrees to "the tares are not saved", but disputes that this means not all will be saved; went to seminary, just like all the Catholic priests that were obviously neither made righteous nor saved by attending seminary (just how many demons have been born from the seminary anyway?). Disingenuously dodges any overt admission of preaching Universalism, while continuing to campaign for it. Yet, for some reason, is to be held as an authority on what God's will is because Oldmantook says so, is that about right?

Obviously, you have not studied Universalism have you, or you would not be asking that question. I won't spoon feed you the answer as I suggest you do your own due diligence as I assume you are at least capable of doing that. I suggest you study the doctrine of apocatastasis which was not an uncommon belief of the early church before Augustine because of his lack of familiarity with the Greek language resulting in the doctrine of eternal torment that is widely accepted today. Because as you point out, universalism is frowned upon on this site, I won't go into further detail. Suffice to say you have totally failed to reconcile what I already pointed out to you - that the "kings of the earth" who are the sworn enemies of God in Revelation are allowed to enter the gates of the New Jerusalem. How does that happen?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

**** "CREED" IN THE TITLE OF THE THREAD SHOULD READ "DECREE" INSTEAD. i'M JUST NOT SURE HOW TO CORRECT IT AT THIS STAGE.

Go to thread tools at top of page to edit title and/or create a poll.

 

[His student]

Go to thread tools at top of page to edit title and/or create a poll.

Thank you.

It's been a little while since the OP. In retrospect I can see why some people didn't get my point. I get a little windy sometimes.

My point was that God decrees that even sin take place. But when He does so - He is simultaneously decreeing something good.

E.g. - evil men will crucify Christ vs. the crucifixion of Christ by evil men will bring salvation to the world of those evil men.

God did not "force" the evil men to crucify Christ, nor did He "author" the sin itself. That was out of the heart of the evil men and was a choice made of their own "free will".

The predestination of a certain choice and result made by men in no way negates their free will - but rather establishes it (as the Calvinists would say).

I.e. - God is totally sovereign - predestining even evil acts to be allowed to take place. Yet He Himself only does good - even if many people (even Christians) will accuse Him of doing evil if it is said that He decreed that evil take place.

Thanks again. Perhaps the thread will be revived with our posts. I hope so there is much to be considered and it went off track along the way (as most posts do).