The righteousness of God in His decre that evil take place.

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,813
10,794
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟831,404.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I disagree with some of your post.

I'm not sure that what you say here will be the case. But I'll drink to it if it is the case.

I can't think of any better way to exist for eternity than to have true free will and no chance of making the wrong choice.
The choice for the believer who loses the battle against the flesh is to choose whether to confess the sin, be forgiven and cleansed; or not to confess the sin and have the Lord chastise him until he does.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,813
10,794
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟831,404.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Because in this world we have tribulation, when we got to the new earth, we would gladly want to forget this "vail of tears"!
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,521
8,425
up there
✟306,494.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I think that the bottom line for an unconverted sinner is that they have a choice between two alternatives.
"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deut 30:19).

In this case the alternatives are death or life and the people can make the choice between the two.

Yes but first do they not need to remember the forgotten will of God they rejected after choosing the alternate will in the Garden? Can they then not see clearly if God wills, all the damage and evil caused by putting our will before God? Understand the comparison between loving neighbour as self vs just being selfish? Perhaps then understanding which is the better will and repenting of the one causing all the troubles? In that way choosing the newly offered life of the Kingdom over the death man precipitates? Jesus said it was all about the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Think of it as a reverse of the serpent. Jesus offered an alternative man forgot was there.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,182
1,808
✟801,184.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To anyone wanting to understand the position of so called Reformed believers like myself on various questions concerning the absolute sovereignty of God in all things:

The scripture says that God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of the wicked (or the just for that matter). In fact – it says quite the opposite. It breaks His heart.

What God takes pleasure in is the final resulting good that those deaths played a part in. In most things in life we cannot see what the final result is that God has decreed to be brought about by tragedy. We can surmise. But we cannot know for certain everything God is doing. Like Job’s friends – we may be way off the mark if we try to be dogmatic.

Examples from scripture have to suffice in most cases to assure us that He does indeed have a reason even when everything seems to be going wrong. Even when evil appears to win the battle – God shows us from scripture that He will win the war. All will, eventually, turn out to be good and He will be glorified eventually in the display of that good.

He even uses the evil done by the likes of Satan, or the Chaldeans, or the Egyptians, or the Assyrians, or Judas, or Titus, or Nero – the list goes on and on – to bring Him glory through the display of the good He has decreed to be eventually apparent to all.

The selling of a brother to slavers was shown in scripture to be a good thing. It was allowed, or even planned, for good purpose. Therefore, the scriptures tell us, it was God who did it as well as the evil brothers – for whom it was sin.

It was God’s good pleasure to “crush” the innocent man Jesus – and that for good reason. But it came to pass through the altogether sinful actions of evil men. The scriptures couldn’t be more clear that it was God who decreed that Jesus die at the hands of those evil men.

For that matter – God will eventually even use the rebellion of Satan and his minions and the fall of man as well to bring about and display good in the ages to come.

It would take page after page of cut and pasted passages from Bible Gateway to prove all this from scripture. But, to put it bluntly, if you are not aware of this aspect of how God operates – you just haven’t been paying attention when you’ve read your Bible. This is a fairly basic Bible principle.

All of God’s decrees are good. He is altogether good and it could be no other way. But His decrees that they fall out according to evil often appear from our perspective to be evil decrees.

He shows us again and again the good results in scripture that He decreed to be brought about by evil.

The principle from scripture might be stated thusly: God only decrees that which is good. He often uses temporary evil to bring to light the good that He has decreed. God does everything according to his good and perfect will. Therefore His decree that evil be allowed to take place to accomplish good is righteous.

OF COURSE SOME, EVEN MOST IT SEEMS, WILL ATTEMPT TO GET AROUND THIS BY SIMPLY IGNORING OR CHANGING WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SO OBVIOUSLY TEACH.

Some say that a God who makes such decrees (and carries them out by His indwelling Word) would be Himself doing evil. I have wrestled through that temptation myself many times.

Why would anyone think that I have not had such thoughts myself? I have – of course – as has any thinking student of the scriptures.

The difference between me and many others is that I now always take it by faith that God is doing good even as He uses evil for His purposes. Without faith, of course, it is impossible to please God.

Some – lacking the faith to believe every aspect of His Word – pick and choose which concepts they will believe and teach. This is the manner that people who lack faith use to handle apparent contradictions from God’s Word. It seems to me that it is a lot like what must have been the thoughts of the first couple before that fateful fall into sin.

Imagine what might have been the thoughts of Adam and Eve as they contemplated the apparent contradiction concerning God’s nature that He set before them in the Garden. Then bring it over to what is often said about the same kind of apparent contradictions that we are given concerning many doctrines from scripture – like the Trinity, predestination and related doctrines, eternal security vs. the tendency of believers to sin, and even the huge overall mystery of good and evil vs. the absolute sovereignty of God.

“God told us not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lest we die. The God we know is good and doesn’t tempt people (He has told us so) – especially with things that might kill them. Since God is only good and He doesn’t tempt or kill His creations – we must have misunderstood Him. Surely the God we know must have said something else than what we thought we heard Him say.”

The serpent hisses his question to reinforce their dilemma. “Oh come now, let’s reason together, – hath God really said?”

It would have been better if they had believed God, acted on that belief, and then asked Him for an explanation concerning the apparent contradiction when they saw Him face to face. But of course the rest is history.

“Without faith it is impossible to please God.” It was lack of faith in His Word pure and simple that manifested in the fall. It is, in my view, altogether appropriate that faith in His Word be the vehicle for the salvation of His fallen creation.

That goes for salvation in the basic sense. It goes for our sanctifying walk with Him. It also goes for our wrestling with the difficult doctrines of the Bible.

Another – even more basic paradox - is our very existence as real people vis-a-vis God’s constant indwelling of His creation and the fact that we work only because He works.

I’ll spare you an imaginary conversation that Lucifer might have had with God concerning this. Suffice it to say that the problem we have before us, so often heatedly debated here in the forum, is really no different than Lucifer’s “problem”.

He wanted to be independent of God. Essentially he wanted to be like God – totally self sufficient. You know the statements He made that are given us in scripture. I’m thinking that he might even have made a few comments about being a computer or a puppet or a robot since he only had his being in God and was not really independent. He simply couldn’t accept God’s assurance that he was a very real person, a person of worth, and someone whom God could love and have true fellowship with in spite of his being a creation of God and one where God was involved in everything about him down to the finest detail.

He could not accept the fact that nothing can exists apart from the constant “Lordship” of the indwelling Word. “In Him we live and move and have our being” is no different for Lucifer than for us - or a rock or a tree or the smallest particle of matter.

Concerning His Word, God says, “All things were created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things consist.”

Well – enough for now. There is a lot more to Reformed beliefs than these things of course. But these - basic and inescapable concepts from the scriptures - form a firm base from which many other things in Reformed theology flow. (That is not to say that all of the theology associated with so called Calvinism is correct.) But if you reject the sovereignty of God in all things you will fall into a theological ditch. Even what you think you have will be taken from you. Accept it and you will likely prosper in your theology. Even more will be given to you.

God is God. We are His creation. His Word is our constant companion and Lord and must be so if we are to continue to exist and function in any way at all. We are very real people with whom God has a relationship in spite of us not being independent from God. We can never be completely independent. We should worship Him because of it – not chafe at His Lordship. It seems to me that that’s what the scriptures are all about teaching us.

Jesus once told us that His “meat” was to do the will of God. He told us that He could only do what He saw God doing. He rejoiced in being dependent on God for every aspect of His being.

Call me “Reformed” or call me a person with a strange view of the nature of things. But count me in on that sentiment expressed by the Word of God.

I can hear the possible questions now. But! But! But!

My advice to everyone is to believe the Word of God first and act and teach accordingly and only then ask your questions of God. Ask for wisdom only after believing Him (would that Adam had done that). Only if you “have”, will more be given to you.

By the way – NEWS FLASH – I have no more insight into how these things could possibly be so than what the Bible shows. I see through the glass darkly just as the rest of men – even if acceptance of the sovereignty of God allows me to see a bit more clearly than those who will not receive it. I can’t explain these things any deeper than what the Bible provides for us.

But - my inability to explain how these things can possibly be has absolutely no bearing at all on whether the Bible teaches that they are indeed so.

I’m sure someone along the line will ask what possible good will come of the holocaust if God was sovereign in it’s coming to pass. I suppose that I could venture a few sanctified ideas. But they would undoubtedly fall short of the final truth of the matter which God will reveal someday.

I’m willing to wait.

I’ve been told directly here in the forum that unless we know the answers as to exactly the how or why of the sovereignty of God in everything including evil – we cannot build sound doctrine.

To the contrary, as I see it – unless you accept the sovereignty of God in everything – you cannot build truly sound doctrine – even concerning basic salvation.

According to some, there should be, can be and are no mysteries in the scriptures. I couldn’t disagree more.

COMMENTS?
I agree that good can and should come from every tragedy, but that does not explain the need for the tragedy in the first place since good can and should come from every gift (the avoidance of a tragedy).

What would not have been “seen” if God had not allowed satan to be in the Garden, the fruit looked and smelled bad, the tree of knowledge was on a very steep dangerous mountain in a far corner of the g Garden?

I see God allowing and doing everything possible to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective (the reason for it all) with that everything including: satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, Christ going to the cross, death, hell and even sin.

Let me ask you: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God forever (the Garden) or in a place where you just have to humbly accept God’s pure charity to have an eternal relationship with God (where you are today)?
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Most everyone here (except those of other or no religions) would agree to that outright.
Surprise, no, they don't, not most. (Scripture is right about this, before there was even electricity ! -- "most" is not right, ever, so far,
except only twice, two short times, in history of the world.
 
Upvote 0

Roidecoeur78

This world is not my home.
Dec 14, 2018
238
153
Midwest
✟28,694.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If a person truly knows God(as sovereign), and that He has given Jesus Christ all authority(control) over heaven and earth, then that person would be filled with peace and assurance that nothing has ever, or will ever, transpire that is outside His plan.

If, however, anyone worships a being that is not sovereign over all creation, then what that person is worshiping is not the true and living God, but only an idol concocted of their own desires and comprehension level.

The difference between God's permissive will and His absolute will is crucial to understanding His essential goodness. Comparing it to a human circumstance, someone might not want to consume other living creatures to maintain his or her physical existence, or live a life that pollutes the world they and their descendants must physically inhabit, and yet these things are necessary means to necessary ends. Just because necessary evil must be utilized, doesn't mean that one is to take pleasure in it. To take pleasure in evil is wickedness, but to suffer it is righteousness. It would be helpful to understand that no human, or group of humans, is the authority on what is good or evil in God's eyes; because finite and flawed humans will be making their evaluations from self-serving, very partial, and finite and flawed opinion-based knowledge. (Because a person might call something evil just because they themselves don't like it, which does not actually determine whether something is good or evil.)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?” Dan 4:34-35

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John1:3

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Romans 9:18-20
 
  • Winner
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Many Pentecostals are more Arminian, and that is why they often have problems with the assurance of salvation when they have battles with the flesh.
From recent reading (the last year) , light reading,
'Arminian' type thinking, while maybe not perfect, would not give them more problems than the usual alternative.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Reformed believers emphasize the sovereignty and omnipotence of God over all things. God's stated desire is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20). Despite God's sovereignty, He is unable to accomplish what he desires.
Of course He couldn't. He has decreed that justification can only come through a faith exhibited by a person of his own free will.

God cannot deny Himself. He is "bound" by His Word.

If He had not made the decree concerning personal faith - there are any number of ways He could save everyone. The method of salvation was and is His choice. It is not some eternal separate abstract law binding God.

He is and always has been sovereign over all things.

But - no - God cannot create a rock too big for Him to lift. No Reformed believer in sovereignty would say otherwise. The teaching of absolute sovereignty does not depend on God not being able to do everything - only on His sovereign choice of what He chooses to do.
The choice for the believer who loses the battle against the flesh is to choose whether to confess the sin, be forgiven and cleansed; or not to confess the sin and have the Lord chastise him until he does.
Agreed.
Let me ask you: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God forever (the Garden) or in a place where you just have to humbly accept God’s pure charity to have an eternal relationship with God (where you are today)?
The latter.
Surprise, no, they don't, not most. (Scripture is right about this, before there was even electricity ! -- "most" is not right, ever, so far,
except only twice, two short times, in history of the world.
Sorry. But I can't find what post # this refers to.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Roidecoeur78

This world is not my home.
Dec 14, 2018
238
153
Midwest
✟28,694.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
by a person of his own free will.

God cannot deny Himself. He is "bound" by His Word.

So created beings are free, but their omnipotent creator is bound?

It's more along the line of God's will is the only one that is free to choose, those that He will bestow the faithful ability to conform to Christ's example in living and dying, and, of those, which will be able to receive and abide in it, through endurance, until the end of their life. So not many, and not by their own will, and definitely not all that profess being saved(not even close). Though His absolute will might desire for all to be saved, His permissive will allows for most choosing their own destruction.

It's kind of like how so many people misuse and misconstrue the verse, "with God all things are possible" to their own vain desires and intentions. It does't actually mean that any absurdly imaginable thing is possible (like real, in the flesh purple unicorns), but that all things that are possible, and that are done, are so only in, by, and through Him.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So created beings are free, but their omnipotent creator is bound?
In the case of fallen man, I am using "free" in the sense it is usually used here. I suppose we could have a lecture on the bondage of the will and what is or is not true and complete freedom. But I think another thread would be appropriate for that.

For now - I think everyone would agree that I had decided to type these words of my own "free will" and that everyone knows what is meant by that term.
It's more along the line of God's will is the only one that is free to choose, those that He will bestow the faithful ability to conform to Christ's example in living and dying, and of those, which will be able to receive and abide in it, through endurance, until the end of their life. So not many, and not by their own will, and definitely not all that profess being saved.
I think most people know that God is the only one who is completely free to choose. "Free" presupposed that it is a choice allowed by His inherent nature.

We cannot fly even if we made the choice to do so. That is part of our nature.

When I say that God is "bound" by His decrees - it means that He cannot deny Himself. That is part of His nature.

God cannot lie. The inability and the lack of inclination to do so are part of His nature.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If a person truly knows God(as sovereign), and that He has given Jesus Christ all authority(control) over heaven and earth, then that person would be filled with peace and assurance that nothing has ever, or will ever, transpire that is outside His plan.

If, however, anyone worships a being that is not sovereign over all creation, then what that person is worshiping is not the true and living God, but only an idol concocted of their own desires and comprehension level.

The difference between God's permissive will and His absolute will is crucial to understanding His essential goodness. Comparing it to a human circumstance, someone might not want to consume other living creatures to maintain his or her physical existence, or live a life that pollutes the world they and their descendants must physically inhabit, and yet these things are necessary means to necessary ends. Just because necessary evil must be utilized, doesn't mean that one is to take pleasure in it. To take pleasure in evil is wickedness, but to suffer it is righteousness. It would be helpful to understand that no human, or group of humans, is the authority on what is good or evil in God's eyes; because finite and flawed humans will be making their evaluations from self-serving, very partial, and finite and flawed opinion-based knowledge. (Because a person might call something evil just because they themselves don't like it, which does not actually determine whether something is good or evil.)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?” Dan 4:34-35

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John1:3

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Romans 9:18-20
I agree.
 
Upvote 0

Roidecoeur78

This world is not my home.
Dec 14, 2018
238
153
Midwest
✟28,694.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In the case of fallen man, I am using "free" in the sense it is usually used here. I suppose we could have a lecture on the bondage of the will and what is or is not true and complete freedom. But I think another thread would be appropriate for that.

For now - I think everyone would agree that I had decided to type these words of my own "free will" and that everyone knows what is meant by that term.
I think most people know that God is the only one who is completely free to choose. "Free" presupposed that it is a choice allowed by His inherent nature.

We cannot fly even if we made the choice to do so. That is part of our nature.

When I say that God is "bound" by His decrees - it means that He cannot deny Himself. That is part of His nature.

God cannot lie. The inability and the lack of inclination to do so are part of His nature.
I agree as well.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Of course He couldn't. He has decreed that justification can only come through a faith exhibited by a person of his own free will.
You have neglected to explain how God despite being sovereign and omnipotent over all things cannot even fulfill his own stated will, which is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20). Despite God's sovereignty, He is unable to accomplish what he desires. Since God is indeed sovereign, how can he not accomplish whatever he desires??
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Roidecoeur78

This world is not my home.
Dec 14, 2018
238
153
Midwest
✟28,694.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You have neglected to explain how God despite being sovereign and omnipotent over all things cannot even fulfill his own stated will, which is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20). Despite God's sovereignty, He is unable to accomplish what he desires. Since God is indeed sovereign, how can he not accomplish whatever he desires??
Again,

If a person truly knows God(as sovereign), and that He has given Jesus Christ all authority(control) over heaven and earth Matt28:18, then that person would be filled with peace and assurance that nothing has ever, or will ever, transpire that is outside His plan. If, however, anyone worships a being that is not sovereign over all creation, then what that person is worshiping is not the true and living God, but only an idol concocted of their own desires and comprehension level.

The difference between God's permissive will and His absolute will is crucial to understanding His essential goodness. Comparing it to a human circumstance, someone might not want to consume other living creatures to maintain his or her physical existence, or live a life that pollutes the world they and their descendants must physically inhabit, and yet these things are necessary means to necessary ends. Just because necessary evil must be utilized, doesn't mean that one is to take pleasure in it. To take pleasure in evil is wickedness, but to suffer it is righteousness. It would be helpful to understand that no human, or group of humans, is the authority on what is good or evil in God's eyes; because finite and flawed humans will be making their evaluations from self-serving, very partial, and finite and flawed opinion-based knowledge. (Because a person might call something evil just because they themselves don't like it, which does not actually determine whether something is good or evil.) One will either submit their self to His sovereign authority(and that not by their own doing but because God chose them to), as Christ did in His earthly example, or be on the receiving end of the oncoming wrath.

It's kind of like how so many people misuse and misconstrue the verse, "with God all things are possible" to suit their own vain desires and intentions. It doesn't actually mean that any absurdly imaginable thing is possible (like real, in the flesh purple unicorns), but that all things that are possible, and that are done, are so only in, by, and through Him.

No amount of bible reading is going to grant you the understanding you demand, if the spirit of truth isn't given to one then truth is not available to that person. "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and still you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John5:39-40
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Again,

If a person truly knows God(as sovereign), and that He has given Jesus Christ all authority(control) over heaven and earth Matt28:18, then that person would be filled with peace and assurance that nothing has ever, or will ever, transpire that is outside His plan. If, however, anyone worships a being that is not sovereign over all creation, then what that person is worshiping is not the true and living God, but only an idol concocted of their own desires and comprehension level.

The difference between God's permissive will and His absolute will is crucial to understanding His essential goodness. Comparing it to a human circumstance, someone might not want to consume other living creatures to maintain his or her physical existence, or live a life that pollutes the world they and their descendants must physically inhabit, and yet these things are necessary means to necessary ends. Just because necessary evil must be utilized, doesn't mean that one is to take pleasure in it. To take pleasure in evil is wickedness, but to suffer it is righteousness. It would be helpful to understand that no human, or group of humans, is the authority on what is good or evil in God's eyes; because finite and flawed humans will be making their evaluations from self-serving, very partial, and finite and flawed opinion-based knowledge. (Because a person might call something evil just because they themselves don't like it, which does not actually determine whether something is good or evil.) One will either submit their self to His sovereign authority(and that not by their own doing but because God chose them to), as Christ did in His earthly example, or be on the receiving end of the oncoming wrath.

It's kind of like how so many people misuse and misconstrue the verse, "with God all things are possible" to suit their own vain desires and intentions. It doesn't actually mean that any absurdly imaginable thing is possible (like real, in the flesh purple unicorns), but that all things that are possible, and that are done, are so only in, by, and through Him.

No amount of bible reading is going to grant you the understanding you demand, if the spirit of truth isn't given to one then truth is not available to that person. "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and still you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John5:39-40
You have failed to explain how God despite being sovereign, fails to accomplish his stated purpose/will. Your human comparisons do not hold any water because God is able and will accomplish anything he so desires, precisely because he is indeed sovereign.
 
Upvote 0

Roidecoeur78

This world is not my home.
Dec 14, 2018
238
153
Midwest
✟28,694.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You have failed to explain how God despite being sovereign, fails to accomplish his stated purpose/will. Your human comparisons do not hold any water because God is able and will accomplish anything he so desires, precisely because he is indeed sovereign.
No one is saying God fails to accomplish His will except Oldmantook.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: His student
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have neglected to explain how God despite being sovereign and omnipotent over all things cannot even fulfill his own stated will, which is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20). Despite God's sovereignty, He is unable to accomplish what he desires. Since God is indeed sovereign, how can he not accomplish whatever he desires??
To the contrary. I have explained it thoroughly.

God can "will" that all men be saved and yet not all will be saved. It is just as a judge or a general can "will" that their loved one who is a murderer or a spy not be put to death.

At the same time he is bound by a higher law than his compassion for the one before him. He makes a choice according to the higher bar of justice and his oath of office.

The judge can cry his eyes out for eternity or lament his verdict even as he hands it down. That will not make his verdict unjust nor must it indicate some contradiction in his personality.

If you don't know the difference between the "wills" of God you need to hit the books.

By the way - the dichotomies between God's love and His judgement, His wrath and His grace, predestination and free will, the presence of both good and evil in a world where God is omnipotent - and a host of others --- do not simply disappear by railing against Reformed theologian's attempt to explain it.

The difference between the folks who scoff at the Reformed view concerning these things and those Reformed theologians is simply that Reformed believers tackle the dichotomies head on and some people put their hands over their eyes and ears and pretend that it's all been solved by them not acknowledging the dichotomies still exist.

By the way also - Have you not heard that God has or will reconcile all things to Himself in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:18 & 20; Col. 1:20)

God is not only fully able to accomplish what He has stated will happen - He is bound by His Word to accomplish them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,813
10,794
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟831,404.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
From recent reading (the last year) , light reading,
'Arminian' type thinking, while maybe not perfect, would not give them more problems than the usual alternative.
Arminian doctrine is a deceptive doctrine that the devil can use to keep good believers in a state of uncertainty and constantly worrying about their spiritual state. This makes them try to keep the moral law in order to remain saved, and when they do, grace is no longer grace, and no longer the righteousness of Christ but self-righteousness.
 
Upvote 0