The righteousness of God in His decre that evil take place.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Of course He couldn't. He has decreed that justification can only come through a faith exhibited by a person of his own free will.

That is Arminian doctrine.
Yes, a person chooses to receive Christ, but what has motivated his choice? What has given him the understanding of the Gospel in order to enable him to make the choice?
If the god of this world has blinded the unconverted so that they cannot understand what the Gospel is all about, what happened to "unblind" them?

I say that it is the grace and mercy of God that has given a person the understanding of the Gospel in order that they can make the choice. God made the first step in accordance with the Scripture:
"You did not choose Me. I chose you."

The natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. So, to have any understanding of the Gospel and what it really means, in order to be able to make a reasonable choice, it had to be the Holy Spirit who gave that understanding in the first place.

It sounds as if, although the invitation is extended to all, not all are given the understanding from the Holy Spirit in order to make the choice. This is the sovereignty of God: "I will have mercy on whom I want to have mercy". God makes the choice of whom He wants to save, and He is above criticism and reproach in the choices He makes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Arminian doctrine is a deceptive doctrine that the devil can use to keep good believers in a state of uncertainty and constantly worrying about their spiritual state. This makes them try to keep the moral law in order to remain saved, and when they do, grace is no longer grace, and no longer the righteousness of Christ but self-righteousness.

I don't know if Arminian doctrine says that or not, but I have seen alternative believers making false claims about it, like this post.
Arminian (so-called) believers also have made false claims about the alternatives.

Neither is good nor right, nor in line with God's Will and Purpose in Christ Jesus,
as far as can be realized and seen in His Word.

They both/ all/ (almost even the elect) add to or take away from Gods Word, thus because of this and other things suffer from deception.

 

[timothyu]

You have failed to explain how God despite being sovereign, fails to accomplish his stated purpose/will. Your human comparisons do not hold any water because God is able and will accomplish anything he so desires, precisely because he is indeed sovereign.

Does He fail or is He simply setting the example of not doing what man would do, seek gain at the expense of others. Giving us choice allows us to not be under the foot of God for His gain. What God would like for us He will not force upon us. He is not a child playing with dolls.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Does He fail or is He simply setting the example of not doing what man would do, seek gain at the expense of others. Giving us choice allows us to not be under the foot of God for His gain. What God would like for us He will not force upon us. He is not a child playing with dolls.

By thinking/ believing/ that "God" will do whatever He Wants to do, regardless of the men anyplace,
a lot of grievous sin and abominations have been approved of "since God will do what He wants" no matter what we do. (they think apparently that way). Like the heresy of universalism posted in several sections/ threads, apparently the idea is to pervert Scripture and claim everyone is saved , without the requirements of Scripture being called TRUTH, OR a different way: "whoever is saved or lost" is God's choice.... so "we don't have to do what He says" or something like that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't know if Arminian doctrine says that or not, but I have seen alternative believers making false claims about it, like this post.
Arminian (so-called) believers also have made false claims about the alternatives.

Neither is good nor right, nor in line with God's Will and Purpose in Christ Jesus,
as far as can be realized and seen in His Word.

They both/ all/ (almost even the elect) add to or take away from Gods Word, thus because of this and other things suffer from deception.

Others can believe what they wish. That is their right; but I firmly believe that God chose me in the first instance, gave me the understanding of what the gospel was all about, and by His grace and power overcame my objections and dispensed with all my excuses until I had no reason not to receive Christ as my Saviour.

If I had been left to my own choice, I would not have chosen Christ. This is the fault of "free choice". If unconverted folk were given free choice, they would naturally choose to reject Christ because their nature is to rebel against God.

My conversion to Christ was the work of the Holy Spirit from start to finish, and it went right against my nature and character. Even the guy who witnessed to me was reluctant because he did not believe that I was the type who would receive the Gospel. But the Holy Spirit insisted that he witness to me regardless and it was a surprise to him that I was receptive.

To me, the Scripture is very plain and clear:
"By grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourself, but it is the gift of God".
This shows me that my conversion to Christ did not come from myself in any way, but my 'saving faith' came from the Holy Spirit as a gift from God.

So, I did not choose Christ before God chose me. He chose me first, then I was able to choose Him.

I don't care whether you call it election and say it is a deceptive doctrine. My position is that I have been saved through the grace and mercy of God, who chose me for salvation, and my 52 years of Christian living has been a walk of faith through the same grace and mercy of God which has been extended to me every day. His grace is sufficient for me, and always has been.

 

[timothyu]

If unconverted folk were given free choice, they would naturally choose to reject Christ because their nature is to rebel against God.

This is often a result of their defence of the ways of man, seeing the will of God as anti-human. The definition of converted folks is in the eye of the beholder. I have been attacked by many of the religious right over the years who would rather defend the principles of human politics than the ways of the Kingdom. They don't reject the Christ, they simply refuse to follow Him. He serves their purpose rather than them serving His. The Gospel of the Kingdom condemns their world.

My conversion to Christ was the work of the Holy Spirit from start to finish, and it went right against my nature and character.

I was fortunate to have started the journey of seeking God at a preschool age. He piqued my interest, quite possibly through the Nativity every Christmas. But then again I was born seeing hypocrisy everywhere so I guess I was born prepared for my future. .

 

[timothyu]

and claim everyone is saved

The whole world is saved by the doors being opened to the Kingdom but individual man is still required to reject the will of man over God in order to cash in.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is often a result of their defence of the ways of man, seeing the will of God as anti-human. The definition of converted folks is in the eye of the beholder. I have been attacked by many of the religious right over the years who would rather defend the principles of human politics than the ways of the Kingdom. They don't reject the Christ, they simply refuse to follow Him. He serves their purpose rather than them serving His. The Gospel of the Kingdom condemns their world.



I was fortunate to have started the journey of seeking God at a preschool age. He piqued my interest, quite possibly through the Nativity every Christmas. But then again I was born seeing hypocrisy everywhere so I guess I was born prepared for my future. .

Of course, the parable of the wheat and the tares describes the church as well as the world. A good preacher once said, "We are to hate our own sin, but love everyone else." I think that is a good rule to follow.

If we see all the hypocrites in the church and that is all we see, then we are going by judgment and condemnation instead of grace and power. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. Therefore we give the benefit of the doubt, and treat every other person with grace and not judgment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But then again I was born seeing hypocrisy everywhere so I guess I was born prepared for my future.

Everywhere there is hypocrisy (deception). We all were born seeing (in the world around us) deception everywhere. Thanks to someone's prayer(s) most likely, we called on God to be saved from sin and corruption.

I was not yet converted when I saw and realized all the deception all around us,
yet for months cried out and called on Jesus and His Father in heaven to grant me grace to know the truth, no matter the price, (as Jesus Himself paid the greatest price) no matter the price , even my own life , whatever God wanted to do with my life - let me know the truth, seeking the truth always, getting the truth at all costs,
and He did. He saved me. (like all Ekklesia). The truth has set us free ! HALLELUYAH ! AMEN.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The whole world is saved by the doors being opened to the Kingdom but individual man is still required to reject the will of man over God in order to cash in.

?? The whole world is doomed. A remnant is saved by God's Word, as He says , If He had not saved a remnant for Himself, for His Own testimony from all the peoples(nations),
there would have been no flesh survive.

 

[His student]

He has decreed that justification can only come through a faith exhibited by a person of his own free will.

That is Arminian doctrine.

No - Arminian doctrine is that fallen men can and do have the ability and inclination to make the right choice through their own nature without a special enlightening by the Holy Spirit. (Whether one chooses to label that election based special enlightening regeneration or mere drawing because of election - is a debatable point based on their definition of regeneration.)

Whether the "drawee" has been regenerated before choosing according to their definition or not - all Reformed theologians would say, with me, that no one is "forced" to make the right choice. They make it of their own free will (in the generally accepted sense of the term).

Most would say that what is necessary is a new creation to make the right choice in the first place. While I agree with the scriptures that a new creation is necessary - I would not be as dogmatic as some concerning what the word regeneration means.

I say that it is the grace and mercy of God that has given a person the understanding of the Gospel in order that they can make the choice. God made the first step in accordance with the Scripture:
"You did not choose Me. I chose you." The natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. So, to have any understanding of the Gospel and what it really means, in order to be able to make a reasonable choice, it had to be the Holy Spirit who gave that understanding in the first place. It sounds as if, although the invitation is extended to all, not all are given the understanding from the Holy Spirit in order to make the choice. This is the sovereignty of God: "I will have mercy on whom I want to have mercy". God makes the choice of whom He wants to save, and He is above criticism and reproach in the choices He makes.

You won't get an argument from me.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No - Arminian doctrine is that fallen men can and do have the ability and inclination to make the right choice through their own nature without a special enlightening by the Holy Spirit. (Whether one chooses to label that election based special enlightening regeneration or mere drawing because of election - is a debatable point based on their definition of regeneration.)

Whether the "drawee" has been regenerated before choosing according to their definition or not - all Reformed theologians would say, with me, that no one is "forced" to make the right choice. They make it of their own free will (in the generally accepted sense of the term).

Most would say that what is necessary is a new creation to make the right choice. While I agree with the scriptures that a new creation is necessary - I would not be so dogmatic concerning what the word regeneration means.

Where Aminianism falls down is that it assumes that fallen man can make a choice toward God. I believe he cannot unless there has been a work of the Holy Spirit within him to enable him to have the faith to make that choice.

Yes, many fallen men and women choose religion and can appear to be very believable professing Christians. But it is quite possible to "get religion" and not be truly converted to Christ.

We have a lot of professing Christians like that, and those who see "hypocrites in the church" may be seeing those professing Christians who have just religion and not Christ in their hearts.

To me, "regeneration", true conversion, entire sanctification by faith, baptism with the Spirit are all the same thing. It is is a total transformation of heart and life, resulting in the new creation.

 

[timothyu]

Of course, the parable of the wheat and the tares describes the church as well as the world.

Yes and the reason the tares were not to be torn up is because there are so few non-tares which could easily be damaged. As a kid I used to 'rogue' out in the fields, that is to pick weeds or grains alien to the seed crop. It was an easy task there being so few alien 'tares' with no threat of damage to the main crop. Opposite to what Jesus spoke of.

If we see all the hypocrites in the church and that is all we see, then we are going by judgment and condemnation instead of grace and power.

For sure, but seeing hypocrisy can also have you look for an alternate way and ignore the hypocrisy. Such is the Gospel of the Kingdom, leaving the world of man behind for an alternate way..

 

[timothyu]

The truth has set us free !

What causes many to stumble is putting trust in the very institution that is supposed to serve God, for therein likes the greatest deceptions and hypocrisies. The Adversary has the power to infiltrate any institution of man, but not the Kingdom. So obviously it will build the ranks of it's own in that which is to forward the Kingdom of God to divert truth about the Kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

?? The whole world is doomed. A remnant is saved by God's Word, as He says , If He had not saved a remnant for Himself, for His Own testimony from all the peoples(nations),
there would have been no flesh survive.

You miss the point I think. We were cast here in quarantine after the Garden. No way out. The Kingdom gave us a way out. This world of man was saved by that out. But mankind individually was not saved. As you say, only a remnant will pass through that door, the remnant that rejects the will of man in favour of the will of God. Turn on the news and see who is winning.

 

[timothyu]

I believe he cannot unless there has been a work of the Holy Spirit within him to enable him to have the faith to make that choice.

They first have to be aware there is a choice. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. That is the responsibility of His followers, of those few of the will of God within Christianity

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Turn on the news and see who is winning.

No one in the televised news is winning, most days. Very few are ever.....

 

[timothyu]

No one in the televised news is winning, most days. Very few are ever.....

Yep, all serving the will of man.

 

[bling]

The latter.

.

So do you feel grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the ordeal of the Garden to show what a lousy place it was to fulfill theirs and your objective or are you up set with them and why?

 

[His student]

So do you feel grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the ordeal of the Garden to show what a lousy place it was to fulfill theirs and your objective or are you up set with them and why?

There's nothing to be grateful to them for or get up set with them about. They're sinners just like me. They did nothing that I wouldn't likely have done in the same setting.

I am grateful to God for not leaving me (and hopefully Adam and Eve) in our fallen and alienated condition related to His holiness.

Speaking from the natural - I would rather that God found another way to display good vs. evil than this way which includes negative experiences for me. But God had apparently decided the best way to display it in the long run was the way He did it in the garden, is doing it throughout history, and will do it until He makes all things new.

I do like the fact that I have become more like God than the original parents were in their very beginnings - in that I know good from evil.

I've always kinda wondered if God would have eventually taught them the knowledge of good and evil in a different way if they had asked Him what it was all about instead of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I'm not following exactly what point you are trying to make.