The righteousness of God in His decre that evil take place.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is true that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and who are called according to His will and purpose (Romans 8:28). But this is not true for unconverted folk. They are subject to the law of cause and effect. God is a good God and Satan is a bad devil. Satan can cause bad things to happen to Christians, but God is able to turn the tables and bring good out of it.

 

[timothyu]

Satan can cause bad things to happen to Christians, but God is able to turn the tables and bring good out of it.

This concept comes from the Hebrew Tempter, the same one with Jesus in the desert or in the garden before arrest. The Tempter as we see in the Bible (say Job) was a hey, what if we did this type of thing. God gives approval to test. A test is a matter of human choice. This is not to say God cannot take the bad that man does and use it for His good. Look at the Gentile church. No matter how off base or self serving it gets, the scriptures have survived until this day.. as intended. His truth is in the scriptures, not the religious institution.

 

[timothyu]

But this is not true for unconverted folk. They are subject to the law of cause and effect.

That is why God quarantined us here in earth after the Garden, in order to reap what we sow against each other, good and bad. In spite of His offering us His will as an alternate example, we seem to like the self serving ways of mankind instead , giving each other and ourselves grief in the process. Is a human lifetime too short a period to figure out our will is useless and repent of it? I think not, especially if we have the right teachers. Maybe that is why so few figure it out.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is why God quarantined us here in earth after the Garden, in order to reap what we sow against each other, good and bad. In spite of His offering us His will as an alternate example, we seem to like the self serving ways of mankind instead , giving each other and ourselves grief in the process. Is a human lifetime too short a period to figure out our will is useless and repent of it? I think not, especially if we have the right teachers. Maybe that is why so few figure it out.

We can't choose the good, bad, and ugly things that happen to us. S*** happens, and as believers we just get the s*** shovel and dig ourselves out! In other words, although we can't choose what happens to us, we can choose what we will do about it.

For instance, two Sundays ago, my wife and I went to visit family for the day in another city. When we arrived home, we found our 18 year old cat suspended by one of his claws on a raincoat hanging from our back door. It has jumped up, got caught and couldn't free itself. By the expression on its face, it probably died screaming. Not the way we wanted our little kitty cat to go. We knew that because it was on its last legs and were keeping it alive through medication, we wanted her to die a peaceful death by just going to sleep, either naturally or at the vet's. But that was not to be, and having to get the cat down and bury her in the back yard was grievous. My daughter was supposed to have come home during the day, and it was good that she didn't, because she would have been the one to discover the dead kitty cat and she would have been absolutely horrified and devastated. We had that cat for 18 years and so you can imagine the grief we all are feeling. That was a really bad thing to have happened to us and our poor kitty cat.

But the good that came out of it was a renewed bond between my wife, daughter and me as we shared our grief. It showed that life is short and we need to value our lives together because we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow. Also, we are planning to move to the city where our daughter lives, so that we can be closer to her in our declining years. One barrier was that we felt our old kitty cat would not survive the journey and we would have to wait until she did die. Along with me leaving my church through being bullied (another bad thing), that is another barrier to moving removed because I had been involved in that church as part of the leadership for the last 22 years, and now that is all gone. We now know how much our home will get on the market, and we are just waiting for Spring to make our decision so we are not going down south to a colder city in the Winter.

So, those are real life examples of bad things that can and will happen, but every cloud has a silver lining for those who love the Lord and are trusting in His direction for our lives.

 

[timothyu]

We had that cat for 18 years and so you can imagine the grief we all are feeling. That was a really bad thing to have happened to us and our poor kitty cat.

Absolutely. My condolences over the loss of a 'family' member. Mine is 18.5 so I can relate. We both have made a game of seeing who will outlast the other.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What God takes pleasure in is the final resulting good that those deaths played a part in.

I would say this is not an accurate statement. God does not take pleasure in death. As a matter of fact, He has given those who follow Him everlasting life and makes Himself known to those who reject Him. If you preached this god to the unsaved they would never believe in the true God spoken of in Scripture. I know many have a difficult time explaining the sovereignty of God but this is not a very enlightened way to explain it to the whole world, who God loves.
Blessings

 

[His student]

Don't you mean it existed in the physical world all along (the universe consisting of opposites) but went unrecognised by man? Until today all animals except for man still don't recognize it..

No - the physical world was pronounced "good" by God.

The "understanding" of evil was "unrecognized" by men until the time they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It would indeed appear that man is likely the only creature who understands concepts like good and evil.

 

[timothyu]

No - the physical world was pronounced "good" by God.

Good there did not mean as in good/bad, but in complete and balanced, unfolding as it should. The universe has always consisted of opposing parts, dark/light, positive/negative, push/pull. hot/cold, life/death. good/bad etc. What made the Garden a utopia was unawareness.

 

[His student]

Before we continue - I corrected something that I unintentionally said in post number 13. I highlighted it here as well as here. God "does not" make anyone sin.

While one would readily see my position absolutely everywhere else I have commented - it was made unclear there by my leaving out those words.

Satan was never a programmable robot. ......

No one has said that anyone including Satan is a programmable robot. No one has said that God made Satan sin.

He had the power of choice, along with us and the other angels in heaven. Satan chose evil and suffered the consequence for it. Jeremiah's prophecy supports that God does not choose or decree evil for us.
"For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope" (Jeremiah 29:11).

All Reformed theologians including myself agree with you and Jeremiah on this.

Many Pentecostals are more Arminian, and that is why they often have problems with the assurance of salvation when they have battles with the flesh.

Speaking as a Pentecostal/Reformed believer (if we must use labels) - I totally agree.

God never "makes" anyone evil.

No one has said otherwise.

God cannot force anyone to anything.

I disagree that He cannot force anyone to do things. I agree that He does not force anyone to sin.

He has given all men and angels free will to choose. If not, then no one would be held responsible for sin, because they could rightly say, "I was forced. I couldn't help it." If God made Satan rebel, then He would have to take responsibility for it, and He could not condemn Satan and his angels to hell, because He would be unjust.

As they say at Geico - everyone knows that.

If that is the case then Paul would be lying when he said:
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21). This shows that God's grace can be frustrated under certain circumstances.

Any "frustration" of God's grace would come through righteousness being shown to come through the law and not through Christ's work alone. Since it does not come through keeping the law - Christ's work of grace is not "in vain". Paul does not say that he frustrates the grace of God. He says quite the opposite.

No offense meant - but to say that Paul telling us that he does not frustrate God's grace dictates that God's grace can be frustrated is simply improper logic.

If God decreed evil, then why would He have pain and sorrow?

That the evil crucifixion of Jesus Christ caused God pain and sorrow is simply a fact. Why it did seems to me obvious. Even so - who can fathom the depth of it?

Wouldn't the cause of pain and sorrow result from Him not being able to save all whom He desires to save?

God expressed sorrow that Jerusalem would not be saved even though it was His desire that they be saved.

No one "made" them disbelieve. But God decreed that they would not be saved unless they believed - something He knew before the foundation of the world that they would not do.

People cannot get rid of the tension of the absolute and permitted will of God simply by ignoring what the scriptures clearly teach. Namely that both are true.

 

[His student]

I would say this is not an accurate statement. God does not take pleasure in death.

I said, "What God takes pleasure in is the final resulting good that those deaths played a part in."

The scriptures are clear that those deaths are not the final result but only a means to an end.

If I had said that God takes pleasure in death - you would be correct. But I said no such thing - quite the opposite in fact.

If you preached this god to the unsaved they would never believe in the true God spoken of in Scripture.

I do not preach a gospel to the unsaved which includes statements about the absolute sovereignty of God, election, reprobation, predestination or any other doctrine discussed intramurally between students of the scriptures who possess the indwelling Spirit of God.

The unsaved are ill equipped to understand anything about God let alone advanced doctrines such as these.

I know many have a difficult time explaining the sovereignty of God

I have not trouble explaining it. I do, however, have trouble getting some to believe what the scriptures say about it.

but this is not a very enlightened way to explain it to the whole world, who God loves.

It isn't. This is supposed to be a forum for discussions among Christians not only for preaching the gospel to get people saved.

The world does not love God by the way. The scriptures are clear about that.

 

[His student]

It is true that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and who are called according to His will and purpose (Romans 8:28). But this is not true for unconverted folk. They are subject to the law of cause and effect. God is a good God and Satan is a bad devil. Satan can cause bad things to happen to Christians, but God is able to turn the tables and bring good out of it.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Oldmantook]

Reformed believers emphasize the sovereignty and omnipotence of God over all things. God's stated desire is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20). Despite God's sovereignty, He is unable to accomplish what he desires.

 

[timothyu]

I do not preach a gospel to the unsaved which includes statements about the absolute sovereignty of God, election, reprobation, predestination or any other doctrine discussed intramurally between students of the scriptures who possess the indwelling Spirit of God.

The unsaved are ill equipped to understand anything about God let alone advanced doctrines such as these.

True, just like a person can't be brainwashed without first having curiosity.

 

[His student]

We can't choose the good, bad, and ugly things that happen to us...................

Brother - I have absolutely no problem with your use of **** marks to fill in the blanks of bad words. In fact, I believe that it is an inoffensive way to make a pithy point.

But - for what it's worth - I was once reported and subsequently banned for a period of time for doing exactly what you do here in this case.

IMO - people usually report things like this because they can't defeat your point of view and want to strike at you anyway they can. IMO a mature Christian should have no problem with the use of **** in that way.

Simply meant as a little word to the wise.

 

[His student]

Good there did not mean as in good/bad, but in complete and balanced, unfolding as it should. The universe has always consisted of opposing parts, dark/light, positive/negative, push/pull. hot/cold, life/death. good/bad etc. What made the Garden a utopia was unawareness.

I disagree.

 

[timothyu]

I disagree.

See? agree/disagree Always there but not put into use until Eve made a bad choice. She was not aware of another side until the serpent suggested maybe she wouldn't die as God had said. Prior to that she never considered there was an alternate side, a choice, even though it was there. Lot of talk about free will but what good is it if we are unaware of two wills. Even in the Kingdom the will of man will once again be forgotten. Free will with only one choice.

 

[His student]

.......Even in the Kingdom the will of man will once again be forgotten. Free will with only one choice.

I disagree with some of your post.

I'm not sure that what you say here will be the case. But I'll drink to it if it is the case.

I can't think of any better way to exist for eternity than to have true free will and no chance of making the wrong choice.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Brother - I have absolutely no problem with your use of **** marks to fill in the blanks of bad words. In fact, I believe that it is an inoffensive way to make a pithy point.

But - for what it's worth - I was once reported and subsequently banned for a period of time for doing exactly what you do here in this case.

IMO - people usually report things like this because they can't defeat your point of view and want to strike at you anyway they can. IMO a mature Christian should have no problem with the use of **** in that way.

Simply meant as a little word to the wise.

I wouldn't expect to be reported in the way I used it, because it was descriptive rather than abusive, and it is a common expression, and in this case, used for a positive a faith-building purpose.

But I appreciate your warning.

Actually the participants in this thread sound like good, friendly people, and so I feel safe.

 

[timothyu]

I can't think of any better way to exist for eternity than to have true free will and no chance of making the wrong choice.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

See? agree/disagree Always there but not put into use until Eve made a bad choice. She was not aware of another side until the serpent suggested maybe she wouldn't die as God had said. Prior to that she never considered there was an alternate side, a choice, even though it was there. Lot of talk about free will but what good is it if we are unaware of two wills. Even in the Kingdom the will of man will once again be forgotten. Free will with only one choice.

I think that the bottom line for an unconverted sinner is that they have a choice between two alternatives.
"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" (Deut 30:19).

In this case the alternatives are death or life and the people can make the choice between the two.