The Rich man and Lazarus

DamianWarS

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Luke 16:19-31 ESV said:
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

What we read in this passage is two Jewish men who die. One is a desired Jewish man with worldly possessions and the other is a wretched man, feeble and an embarrassment. Both die, one go to Abraham's side, the other Hades. The parable tells of a great chasm between the two that cannot be cross and tell us of torment from fire in Hades so bad that the slightest drop would be comforting.

I see a lot of these elements as spiritual metaphors not as physical images of the afterlife.

First Lazarus is brought to Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom. What does this mean? This is the embrace of Abraham only given to his sons and for the account this shows us Lazarus is considered a child of Abraham and the rich man is not. This is a classic separation of the redeemed and unredeemed, sheet/goats etc... in this case it is contrasting earthly honor/heavenly honor. A child of Abraham is a child of God and Abraham is a biblical type of the Father in this account.

These afterlife places are separated by a chasm that cannot be crossed. This chasm is sin and it separates us from God. We cannot be called children of God when we are separated from God and we must be in relationship with him to be called his child. Only Christ can restore this relationship through his death and resurrection. His explicit work is not the the direct focus of the text but it is implicit as he is the only one who can cross the great chasm into relationship at the side of God as his child.

The place of torment, named as hades. "hades" is a greek mythological place of the dead and the text borrows the term but this doesn't mean it inherits the mythology with it. The text shows us the rich man is in torment by fire. Does this mean "hell" is a place of eternal torment and burning? I don't think it does, because although fire is a common image of torment in the afterlife it is not the only image. Never ending decay is also another one, and another is simply an image of suffering.

What I think these images show us is a glimpse of afterlife for the unredeemed using concrete analogies like fire and decay. We don't know what buring forever really feels like but we do know getting burnt hurts and so burning forever would be the extreme limits of this pain and this gives us a taste of what it would be like. It's like someone saying "what is hell like" then the answer being pricked by a needle, then saying now imagine being pricked by 1 million needles at once and it never stopping. This is not saying hell is a bunch of needles but it does help in that we understand the little pain of a needle then it's blown up to it limits and I think that's what the text is telling us. Not to diminish hell, whatever it is there is strong warning against it as a place of unimaginable torment but I don't see the text demanding it is fire, rather it is the concrete it uses as we all understand the fire is painful.

the text concludes with the rich man request to warn his brother being rejected with the argument saying "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead". This is a little tongue and cheek because of course his brothers would take it seriously if he was resurrected but this isn't want Jesus was really saying as he was foreshadowing his own resurrection.

This whole account has lots of analogies and spiritual metaphors and this tells me it is a parable and not a mirror of the afterlife. The point of the parable is not to show us what the afterlife looks like it is first I think to signal out the pharisees as would identify themselves at first as the rich man and be offended when they heard he was not counted as a child of God, it also shows us to store up riches in heaven not on earth and that heavenly honor uses a different measure than earthly honor. This goes in line with a lot of other parables and uses the same sort of contrasts and images, specifically the immediate parables that Jesus just spoke. I think when our take away from this is this detail image of a place overlooking hell that can't be crossed like layers is the wrong focus and misses the point of the text completely.
 

2tim_215

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Let me say that I don't believe that this is a parable. Lazarus is a proper name and is a real person. If you examine all of the other "parables" Jesus never gives any proper names, a "sower", a "steward", etc. As you point out, there are many important principals as well as a number of insights we aren't given elsewhere in scripture, including lessons about hell and the implications for us as a result of how we live our lives.
 
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AvgJoe

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Personally, I don't believe this is a parable either, because first, the story is never called a parable. Many of Jesus' other stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

However, the important thing is, that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.
 
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2tim_215

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Personally, I don't believe this is a parable either, because first, the story is never called a parable. Many of Jesus' other stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

However, the important thing is. that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.
I agree with everything you've said, however I think it's important to recognize that it's most likely a true story, since specifically we are told that the rich man (whose name we aren't given) has a family who is still living who he wishes he could tell them about his experience in hell in order for them to possibly avoid the anguish he's experienced. However, we find out that it's too late and too late for the rich man to tell him these things. The ironic part is that when he's told this, Jesus response to his request if that they had Moses to tell them, but they wouldn't hear and thus is his fate and will be his family's as well and the lesson for us is if we really care for our families, then we better preach to them while we can because once we die it will be too late for us and them. Some very provocative scripture.
 
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Willie T

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It is definitely a parable, since Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables only. And also because a tip-off to the entire point of the parable was to show the Jews that this GREEK man, Lazarus, could go to Heaven, when a Jew who was depending on his heritage and ancestry might not. The Jews were certain no Greek would ever go to Heaven, simply because he was not a legitimate descendent of Abraham like the Jews were.

This was never intended to give a visual picture of Heaven and Hell.
 
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2tim_215

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It is definitely a parable, since Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables only. And also because a tip-off to the entire point of the parable was to show the Jews that this GREEK man, Lazarus, could go to Heaven, when a Jew who was depending on his heritage and ancestry might not. The Jews were certain no Greek would ever go to Heaven, simply because he was not a legitimate descendent of Abraham like the Jews were.
Regardless of whether or not it was a true story, it was definitely a story with a moral and spiritual lesson (or lessons in this case). What makes you say that Lazarus was Greek? Lazarus was very likely a Jew. The point there was that just because one's poor doesn't mean they won't make it and someone who's rich will. Another point to be made with regards to it being a true story is that Abraham (another real person) name is mentioned.
probably of Hebrew origin [<H499> ('El`azar)]; Lazarus (i.e. Elazar), the name of two Israelites (one imaginary) :- Lazarus.
 
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Der Alte

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Every early church father, who were native Greek speakers, who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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2tim_215

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Every early church father, who were native Greek speakers, who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
Quite illuminating. All great men of God.
 
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AvgJoe

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I agree with everything you've said, however I think it's important to recognize that it's most likely a true story, since specifically we are told that the rich man (whose name we aren't given) has a family who is still living who he wishes he could tell them about his experience in hell in order for them to possibly avoid the anguish he's experienced. However, we find out that it's too late and too late for the rich man to tell him these things. The ironic part is that when he's told this, Jesus response to his request if that they had Moses to tell them, but they wouldn't hear and thus is his fate and will be his family's as well and the lesson for us is if we really care for our families, then we better preach to them while we can because once we die it will be too late for us and them. Some very provocative scripture.

That is another great take away from this portion of scripture. As you said, "Some very provocative scripture."
 
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DamianWarS

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Let me say that I don't believe that this is a parable. Lazarus is a proper name and is a real person. If you examine all of the other "parables" Jesus never gives any proper names, a "sower", a "steward", etc. As you point out, there are many important principals as well as a number of insights we aren't given elsewhere in scripture, including lessons about hell and the implications for us as a result of how we live our lives.

consider the name Lazarus. this is the greek version of the name which is from the hebrew Eliezer. The name means "God helps him" or "God is help" which is certainly fitting knowing Lazarus received the favour of God and the rich man did not

But this isn't the first time Abraham was in contact with an Eliezer. In Gen 15:2 "Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”" we know the ending, Eliezer did not become the heir of Abraham, yet in this passage Lazarus does and is embraced as a true son of Abraham where the rich man is not. Remember back in Ch14 is where the context takes place which is dining at a very well to do pharisees house. Jesus repeats several parables one after the other all aimed at the pharisees and all turning their logic on it's head with the least honored becoming the most honored or the invited guest passed for people on the the street; this parable is right in line with them and it's the same setting at the same event.

The rich man is not called a pharisee because Jesus is too clever for that but it would have been an highly identifiable position for pharisees at that table who only a few verses back were called "lovers of money" (v14). Eliezer of Damascus was not a child of Abraham and did not become his heir but Lazarus does and this is a classic example of Jesus flipping the logic and thoughts of the pharisees. A Pharisee takes high identity in being a son of Abraham; pure blood right back to him. Lazarus was not this blood type and neither was Eliezer of Damascus, both are illegitimate heirs and should not be called sons of Abraham but with Lazarus and the Rich man the positions seems to the swapped. The rich man is not embraced as a son and is thrown away where Lazarus is embraced as a full heir.

This is very tongue and cheek. The whole account is but calling him Lazarus rubs it in even more as he is the one who God favours and he is the son of Abraham.
 
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DamianWarS

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I agree with everything you've said, however I think it's important to recognize that it's most likely a true story, since specifically we are told that the rich man (whose name we aren't given) has a family who is still living who he wishes he could tell them about his experience in hell in order for them to possibly avoid the anguish he's experienced. However, we find out that it's too late and too late for the rich man to tell him these things. The ironic part is that when he's told this, Jesus response to his request if that they had Moses to tell them, but they wouldn't hear and thus is his fate and will be his family's as well and the lesson for us is if we really care for our families, then we better preach to them while we can because once we die it will be too late for us and them. Some very provocative scripture.
does Jesus often take to telling factual accounts? Do you have another example of where this might be because I'm pretty sure if this is the case with this account it is the only one and it at the end of a string of analogous parables which would be a little odd. Jesus spoke not only spoke in parables he self identifies as speaking in parables as a direct fulfilment of prophecy.
 
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M Strain Jr

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What we read in this passage is two Jewish men who die. One is a desired Jewish man with worldly possessions and the other is a wretched man, feeble and an embarrassment. Both die, one go to Abraham's side, the other Hades. The parable tells of a great chasm between the two that cannot be cross and tell us of torment from fire in Hades so bad that the slightest drop would be comforting.

I see a lot of these elements as spiritual metaphors not as physical images of the afterlife.

First Lazarus is brought to Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom. What does this mean? This is the embrace of Abraham only given to his sons and for the account this shows us Lazarus is considered a child of Abraham and the rich man is not. This is a classic separation of the redeemed and unredeemed, sheet/goats etc... in this case it is contrasting earthly honor/heavenly honor. A child of Abraham is a child of God and Abraham is a biblical type of the Father in this account.

These afterlife places are separated by a chasm that cannot be crossed. This chasm is sin and it separates us from God. We cannot be called children of God when we are separated from God and we must be in relationship with him to be called his child. Only Christ can restore this relationship through his death and resurrection. His explicit work is not the the direct focus of the text but it is implicit as he is the only one who can cross the great chasm into relationship at the side of God as his child.

The place of torment, named as hades. "hades" is a greek mythological place of the dead and the text borrows the term but this doesn't mean it inherits the mythology with it. The text shows us the rich man is in torment by fire. Does this mean "hell" is a place of eternal torment and burning? I don't think it does, because although fire is a common image of torment in the afterlife it is not the only image. Never ending decay is also another one, and another is simply an image of suffering.

What I think these images show us is a glimpse of afterlife for the unredeemed using concrete analogies like fire and decay. We don't know what buring forever really feels like but we do know getting burnt hurts and so burning forever would be the extreme limits of this pain and this gives us a taste of what it would be like. It's like someone saying "what is hell like" then the answer being pricked by a needle, then saying now imagine being pricked by 1 million needles at once and it never stopping. This is not saying hell is a bunch of needles but it does help in that we understand the little pain of a needle then it's blown up to it limits and I think that's what the text is telling us. Not to diminish hell, whatever it is there is strong warning against it as a place of unimaginable torment but I don't see the text demanding it is fire, rather it is the concrete it uses as we all understand the fire is painful.

the text concludes with the rich man request to warn his brother being rejected with the argument saying "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead". This is a little tongue and cheek because of course his brothers would take it seriously if he was resurrected but this isn't want Jesus was really saying as he was foreshadowing his own resurrection.

This whole account has lots of analogies and spiritual metaphors and this tells me it is a parable and not a mirror of the afterlife. The point of the parable is not to show us what the afterlife looks like it is first I think to signal out the pharisees as would identify themselves at first as the rich man and be offended when they heard he was not counted as a child of God, it also shows us to store up riches in heaven not on earth and that heavenly honor uses a different measure than earthly honor. This goes in line with a lot of other parables and uses the same sort of contrasts and images, specifically the immediate parables that Jesus just spoke. I think when our take away from this is this detail image of a place overlooking hell that can't be crossed like layers is the wrong focus and misses the point of the text completely.

Let's step outside the text itself for a moment. Luke was either a gentile or a Hellenistic Jew who wasn't with Jesus when all these events were occurring, and his book was probably written after the books of Matthew and Mark. So here was have a man who was not there at the time giving us an account that wasn't given to us by those who were there, as this parable cannot be found in the books of Matthew, John, or even Mark (who also probably wasn't there). Of course, for the purpose of this argument, I assume that these books were even written by the supposed authors, but that's a different discussion.

Now, to say that this is not a parable is ridiculous to me. Every other story Jesus tells is a parable, yet some hard-boiled Christians (those who aren't truth seekers but instead just stew in whatever doctrine their churches teach and then try to ignorantly argue it like they know what they're talking about) cling to the idea that this is some kind of real story, something uncharacteristic of the rest of the gospels. If Lazarus is literally burning in a place called Hades, are we then to assume that the rich man is literally with Abraham? This is where things really become problematic.

As a 34-year-old man who has studied the Greek of the New Testament since 11th grade, I have found little to no evidence to suggest within the Koine Greek that people go to a place called Heaven or a place called Hell when they die.

In Old Testament times, it was clear that EVERYONE went to the place referred to as Sheol, the good and the bad. The KJV is sneaky, in that it translates Sheol as "Hell" when it refers to the place where evil people will go (ex. Isaiah 14:15) but will otherwise be translated as "grave" when the text is speaking of good people (Gen 17:38). You have to remember that anyone in those times reading the text would see "Sheol" in all instances, not some biased English translation. So then there was no Heaven or Hell in Old Testament times, not in the sense of places one goes when they die. If you look closely, people in the Old Testament looked at their reward for good and evil in terms of the physical realm, i.e. the status of their crops or whether their cities were invaded. The Old Testament points out that the dead know nothing (Ecc. 9:5); that "there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom" (Ecc. 9:10) in Sheol; Psalm 115:17 says "The dead do not praise Yah, nor do any who go down into silence"; and Isaiah 38:18-19 say that the dead in Sheol (referred to in the previous verse as the "pit of destruction") can't praise Yah, nor can they hope for his faithfulness, but the living can. So it seems to me that the idea they had in those times was that when someone died, they were buried in the ground and were gone forever.

Likewise, in the New Testament, Hades is usually translated as "Hell" when it is actually used as a Greek stand-in for the Hebrew Sheol. This can be seen in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament that far predates any Hebrew manuscript of the OT we have today, where Sheol is translated "Hades" in every single instance. In other words, Hades, as used in the New Testament, is the place where EVERYONE goes. Revelation 20:13 says that Death and Hades will give up the dead, and they will be judged. How can they be judged if they are already in a place of torment? Would they not then already be judged? It makes no sense. So then, the view of Sheol and Hades is consistent throughout the Bible.

Except here in Luke. The usage in Luke 16:23 is inconsistent with every other usage of the word throughout the Bible. Here we have a conscious person tormented in flames calling out to someone who is supposedly with Abraham.

If we take this literally and say that it is not just another one of Jesus's parables, we have to then wrestle with the task of justifying how this view is in direct violation of not only the rest of the Bible, but also how the Jews of that time generally looked at the afterlife. Remember that the Sadducees believed that the dead stayed dead and that spirits weren't a thing (the Old Testament view), while the Pharisees believed in a resurrection in which the dead would get new bodies and the wicked would be eternally tormented(a relatively new set of ideas that came about after the Hellenists took over the area). Paul was a Pharisee, so it makes sense that his ideas would sound more like theirs. And Luke was one who traveled with Paul, as we see in Acts. Ta-da! Makes sense why Luke's gospel would reflect this idea, right?

Bad doctrine tends to spawn more bad doctrine. It's like these people are solving a math equation but are really bad at it, so they add in more variables to the equation to try to get it to the answer that they want. Is that really the way we should look at the Bible? Yet this is how a lot of churches teach! That's why I don't even go to church anymore. I'd rather just stick to the Word of God and not go by what some pastor educated in a particular doctrine tells me to believe.

So no, I don't think you should take the parable literally.
 
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ewq1938

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As a 34-year-old man who has studied the Greek of the New Testament since 11th grade, I have found little to no evidence to suggest within the Koine Greek that people go to a place called Heaven or a place called Hell when they die.

Except what Christ said? Parable or not, what Christ teaches is always true. If he said a good person went to a good place, and a bad person went to a bad place I'd say let's believe these things.

Even in the world this was true. Did a bad criminal, let's say a rapist, did he have the same grave as a good wealthy man? No.

Jesus was buried in a rich man's grave/tomb...but the bad types went to other places for a grave. I just use this as an analogy that good and bad people don't rest in the same place which is one of Christ's main points including to not assume rich people are blessed by God and are good people, and poor sick beggars are bad people.

In other words, Hades, as used in the New Testament, is the place where EVERYONE goes.

Actually no. Christ was clear only the rich man was in Hades and that Abraham and Lazarus were far off, across a great gulf in a completely different place.



Revelation 20:13 says that Death and Hades will give up the dead, and they will be judged. How can they be judged if they are already in a place of torment? Would they not then already be judged?

Because all the unsaved are judged at the same time. They will be removed from their various dark places, resurrected back to mortal life and face judgment. Ever wonder why resurrected people, who are naturally alive again are called the dead? The only people who are alive but still called dead are the unsaved, spiritually dead.


It makes no sense. So then, the view of Sheol and Hades is consistent throughout the Bible.

I don't see any inconsistencies.



I'd rather just stick to the Word of God and not go by what some pastor educated in a particular doctrine tells me to believe.

So no, I don't think you should take the parable literally.

All parables contains things that are true. That's what they are used for. True things are in the parable but you are saying part of it is not true. You seem to have issue with there being two different places for the dead and that the wicked dead suffer. You say stick to the word of God, so shouldn't we accept what is said in the parable? Or do you think the parable is not valid scripture?

So here was have a man who was not there at the time giving us an account that wasn't given to us by those who were there, as this parable cannot be found in the books of Matthew, John, or even Mark (who also probably wasn't there).

Do you have doubts that the book of Luke is valid? I'm just trying to understand your position on these matters.
 
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Radagast

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Except what Christ said? Parable or not, what Christ teaches is always true. If he said a good person went to a good place, and a bad person went to a bad place I'd say let's believe these things.

Amen, brother.
 
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Radagast

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As a 34-year-old man who has studied the Greek of the New Testament since 11th grade, I have found little to no evidence to suggest within the Koine Greek that people go to a place called Heaven or a place called Hell when they die.

Yet many theologians with far great expertise in Greek disagree with you.
 
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Yet many theologians with far great expertise in Greek disagree with you.
And there are many who agree, but the problem is, they're called out as heritics and apostates, so most mainstream Christians are encouraged to avoid them. Their voices are largely ignored and covered up.

Textual criticism has uncovered much about the text of the Bible in the 400+ years since the KJV. A lot of ancient manuscripts have been discovered, and our understanding of how to modern Bible came to be has drastically changed. But too many denominations are stuck with their outdated ideas and refuse to listen to any of the newer stuff. My Baptist preacher used to stand in front of the congregation and boldly say that the KJV is the most accurate version of the Bible, and the congregation would reflexively and ignorantly go
Amen!" But anyone who has gotten deep into textual criticism, comparing different manuscripts and such, could tell you that the KJV is one of the worst, both in how biased it is and how unreliable the manuscripts used in its creation are. Many churches shun new ideas, sticking stubbornly to their old ideas and telling their congregations that an open mind invites the devil in. But the devil dances inside the doors of a closed mind, I think.
 
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DamianWarS

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In other words, Hades, as used in the New Testament, is the place where EVERYONE goes
Sheol is an indiscriminate and very mysterious place of the dead in the OT where all must pass through where the NT shows hades as a discriminate place of the dead meant for the unrighteous that we can be rescued from. Jesus probably didn't say "hades" here and used a different word which could very well be "sheol" but it's important to know hades and heaven are contrasted terms in the NT. For example:

[Mat 16:18 NASB] 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

[Luk 10:15 NASB] 15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

sheol/hades are used differently in the OT/NT and I don't think we should combine these as the same place but rather OT sheol is just a synonym for death and NT hades gives us greater insight as a place contrasted with heaven, revealed as a place of despair and torment that we can be rescued from.

In the OT there is no rescue from Sheol and good, evil, rich or poor all enter it. But is also is completely unknown and mysterious, a place or ignorance. Hades has his veils too but it does have greater detail than Sheol does as we know at least it is an undesired place and we can escape it. This is after all why we are called "saved" where OT doesn't use that language to establish faith.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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It is definitely a parable, since Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables only. And also because a tip-off to the entire point of the parable was to show the Jews that this GREEK man, Lazarus, could go to Heaven, when a Jew who was depending on his heritage and ancestry might not. The Jews were certain no Greek would ever go to Heaven, simply because he was not a legitimate descendent of Abraham like the Jews were.

This was never intended to give a visual picture of Heaven and Hell.

You say that because that is what you believe. I disagree with you. Jesus didn't have to share the story the way He did. But, He did. He could have shared the same point without the imagery. If He was speaking in parable form, He didn't have to use the imagery at all. He could have just told another story like the two builders. But, He spent time sharing the details to make it real.
 
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ewq1938

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It is definitely a parable, since Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables only. And also because a tip-off to the entire point of the parable was to show the Jews that this GREEK man, Lazarus

He would not be Greek in the parable. He would be Hebrew, just as his name is.
 
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St_Worm2

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It is definitely a parable, since Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables only.
Hi Willie, since the Sermon on the Mount was spoken to a crowd of people, do you believe that the Sermon on the Mount is a parable too?
...the entire point of the parable was to show the Jews that this GREEK man, Lazarus, could go to Heaven...
How were you able to determine that this Lazarus (in Luke 16) was Greek?

Thanks!

--David
 
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