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THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Gold fish, May 21, 2020.

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  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How does any of that address what i posted:

    How is a breath to be "kept blameless" (1 Thess.5:23)?

    Are we to walk by the breath to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or walk by the Spirit?

    Are we to be filled with the breath, or filled with the Spirit?

    Is an angel a breath, or is an angel a spirit?

    Is he who is joined to the Lord one breath? Or one spirit (1 Cor.6:7)?

    Why would Paul say the Lord is with our breath, rather than spirit (2 Tim.4:22)?
     
  2. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    This doesn't mean eternal life at this point.


    This is the only time that this Greek word for alive is used in this form.

    Strong's 2227 zoopoieo -vitalize-make alive, give life, quicken.

    As soon as we have passed, we are quickened in the spirit.

    That word quicken should take us back to the 1st Peter verse


    I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

    The word quickened in this verse is the very same word- Strong's 227 zoopeoio, to vitalize.

    Once Christ himself was quickened by the Spirit he taught the gospel,

    I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

    I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God
    waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

    Chapter 4 states it was the gospel, which we know is the good news, that he taught.

    I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

    There's that word quick again.


    I Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."


    These are dead, but they live (2198 zao, to live, life, quick)" according to God in the spirit."

    Are you saying you don't believe that after Christ "was put to death in the flesh but quickened in the Spirit that he taught/preached to the spirits in prison? Because that's exactly what these scriptures are stating.
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I don't see how you got that from that. If we change the word from spirit back to breath it makes sense.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the breath, if so be that the breath of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the breath of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the breath is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the breath of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his breath that dwelleth in you

    Remember, God brought Adam to life with the breath of life. He did the same to Christ. He will do the same to all believers. Remember, spirit is a figurative usage. Paul's readers wouldn't have seen the word spirit. They would see the word ruach or neshamah, wind or breath and have to figure out what Paul was saying. So here we have to figure out what Paul is saying using the word breath. It's the breath that gives life. we see this same thing in Ezekiel, in the valley of the dry bones. After God brings the bones together and puts flesh on them they are still not alive and He tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the wind and it blows on the them and they live.

    9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.1
    10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
    11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
    14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:9-14 KJV)

    All of the words that I bolded are the same Hebrew word ruach. Ezekiel was told to prophesy to the ruach. God told him to say to the ruach, come from the four ruachs o ruach and breath upon these. So Ezekiel did it and the ruach came into them and they lived. Notice what God says though. In verse 14 God tells us that it's His ruach. He said, 'and shall put my ruach in you, and you shall live'. Notice He didn't say I'll put your ruach in you, He said I'll put my ruach in you and you shall live. So, what gives life is God's ruach, wind or breath.

    This passage in Romans is about physical death and resurrection. I don't see anything that about a spiritual death or life.
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I explained how. The word spirit isn't in the text. Paul's readers didn't read the word spirit. They read the words ruach or neshamah. Both mean wind or breath. How would Paul's readers understand those passages?

    You asked me questions.

    "Are we to walk by the breath to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or walk by the Spirit?"

    The breath and the spirit are the same thing. Your questions only seem to make sense to you because the translators used two different words to translated one Greek word. Here is essentially what you questions are.

    Are we to walk by the "pneuma" to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or walk by the "pneuma"?
    Are we to be filled with the "pneuma", or filled with the "pneuma"?
    Is and angel a "pneuma", or is an angel a "pneuma"?
    Is he who is joined to the Lord one "pneuma", or one "pneuma"?
    Would Paul say the Lord is with our "pneuma", rather than "pneuma"?

    See, when we go back to the original language and look at it, these questions don't make sense.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're the one who called the Greek word a "breath". Does that translation make sense in any of these passages:

    How is a breath to be "kept blameless" (1 Thess.5:23)?

    Are we to walk by the breath to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or walk by the Spirit?

    Are we to be filled with the breath, or filled with the Spirit?

    Is an angel a breath, or is an angel a spirit?

    Is he who is joined to the Lord one breath? Or one spirit (1 Cor.6:7)?

    Why would Paul say the Lord is with our breath, rather than spirit (2 Tim.4:22)?
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Firstly, look at the order of events.

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us1 to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
    19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
    20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited1 in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
    21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
    (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

    The first thing we see is that Christ suffered, then He was put to death, then He was raised to life by the spirit, by whom He went and proclaimed to spirit in prison. From this we see that He preached or proclaimed after He was made alive by the Spirit. So this was the Resurrected Christ that was doing the preaching or proclaiming. He wasn't dead or a ghost, He was alive. So what did He preach or proclaim? The word that is translated preach is not the word that is typically used of preaching the Gospel. It mean to proclaim something. So Jesus proclaimed something to the spirit in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah. Who were these spirit and what did Jesus proclaim? Peter tells us in verse 22.

    who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

    He proclaimed to them that angels, authorities and powers had been made subject to Him. He told the apostles the same thing.

    16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them.
    17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    19 "Go therefore1 and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen1. (Matt. 28:16-20 NKJ)

    The order of events shows plainly that Jesus was alive when He preached or made the proclamation. There is nothing here about dead people who were alive.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    That's what the word means. If it seems funny then it's probably a figure of speech. What is breath? It's the very source of life. If there is no breath there is no life. How is breath to be kept blameless? How is life to be kept blameless? The breath is something that comes from God. It gives man the ability to understand, to reason, to do anything that a man does. It's the breath that gives a man the ability to avoid sin. If one walks in the breath they will not satisfy the lusts of the flesh. How is an angel a wind or breath. Jesus said the wind blows and you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. You can however see the effects of it. It is the same with angels. They come an go and we don't know were they come from or where they go, but we can see the effects of them.

    Spirit is a figure of speech and we have to figure out what it means as breath or wind.
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What happens when we use the plural of spirit? Does it mean "winds" or "breaths"? (nope)

    Matthew 8:16
    When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.

    Matthew 10:1
    Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

    Matthew 12:45
    Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

    Mark 1:27
    The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him.”

    Mark 3:11
    Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

    Mark 5:13
    He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Actually, pneuma is plural. You can deny it. That doesn't change it. It only changes your understanding of the text.
     
  10. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    And it has been given to him. But that has nothing to do with who he proclaimed the gospel to after he was made alive. He went to the spirits that were sometimes disobedient in the past. It has nothing to do with what the angels did which was a much greater sin as taught in Gen/Jude.

    And this aligns with what Christ taught in Luke 16.

    Preaching the gospel as translated back is still to annnounce good news.

    Angels don't need to have the gospel or good news announced. They know Christ is the son of God. The evil spirits had even called him the son of God in the gospels. Believe me, Satan and the fallen angels know what's going on. They don't need the good news announced. They are trying to destroy the gospel and have been since the beginning.

    Actually Peter had already told us in vs 20

    I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God
    waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    But what do you claim as the source for these impure spirits? (demons)
    Aren't you claiming that the spirit proceeded from God and will return to him?

    Saint Steven said:
    What happens when we use the plural of spirit? Does it mean "winds" or "breaths"? (nope)

    Matthew 8:16
    When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.

    Matthew 10:1
    Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

    Matthew 12:45
    Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

    Mark 1:27
    The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him.”

    Mark 3:11
    Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

    Mark 5:13
    He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The passage says nothing about Jesus preaching the Gospel. You're imposing that on the text. When Jesus was resurrected all power and authority was given to Him. That included power over the spirits in prison.
     
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The breath of life came from God and returns to Him. Angels and demons are also called breaths but it's a figure of speech. Why are they called winds or breaths? Because like the wind, they come and go and no one sees them or knows where they come from or where they go. Like the wind we can see the effects of them when they interact in the material world.
     
  14. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    Not at all,


    I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

    Preached, -Strong's 2784 kerusso - to herald, esp, the divine truth (the gospel) -preach, proclaim publish


    I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

    I Peter 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

    This is the same account. The gospel was "also preached to them that are dead." The good news was announced. One should easily be able to connect that it is indeed the gospel that was preached.



    If you can't see that, than I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  15. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    You just made his point valid. The text clearly states that Jesus preached. It does not say at all what He preached. In order to come to your understanding you need to insert the words "the gospel" into the verse following "preached". The fact of the matter is that nobody knows at all what He preached to the spirits in prison. For all we know, it may have been their eternal judgment.
     
  16. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. These were spirits in the time of Noah (past) that were sometimes disobedient. A little common sense can sometimes be applied.

    I had already posted the verse afterwards- (edited to put them together again)

    Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

    Peter 3:19
    "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"


    I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


    If you line up this, which states, esp the divine truth (the gospel)

    Preached, -Strong's 2784 kerusso - to herald, esp, the divine truth (the gospel) -preach, proclaim publish

    To this,

    I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    I Peter 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

    It states right they might be judged according to men in the flesh, we have the opportunity, as they did as well in the flesh but the people in the past had died before Christ's work on the cross. But now were given that same chance to have the gospel taught. And immediately Christ went there.

    Again, if anyone doesn't see the connection that's fine. It's what I believe the Word says. And as I've said before we all have to sail our own ships..
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  17. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want to double post but wanted to say that won't happen until the great white throne of judgement.
     
  18. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Nor, would I remind you, that preaching the gospel to dead folks won't do them much good, either, if we follow the meaning of the rich man and Lazarus.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The word simply means to proclaim. It could be anything. The passage doesn't say that Jesus preached te Gospel to the spirits in prison. Firstly, the Gospel is preached to people, not angels and demons. So it wouldn't be preached to the spirits in prison. Secondly, Peter isn't saying that the Gospel was preached to dead people. It was preached to them while they were alive. Why would anyone preach to a dead person? They can't hear you.

    3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:1 KJV)

    Look at the passage in context. He says the Gospel "was" past tense, preached to those who "are" present tense, currently, dead. Paul said that the Gospel was preached to Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (Gal. 3:8 KJV)

    This is what Peter is talking about. People of old who had heard the good news. They were alive when they heard it but dead when Peter was writing. Thus, his statement, was preached, past tense to those who are dead, present tense.

    And look why it was preached so that they might live according to the spirit. It's so they can live their lives in accordance with God. It's not about telling dead people how they should live. They're dead.

    Dead people are dead. They can't talk, see, hear the Gospel, move, wink, or anything else. I'll go with you to any cemetery you choose and you can show me dead people that can hear or speak. Just give me the address.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Add this to your verses.

    Ephesians 4:8-10
    This is why it says:
    When he ascended on high,
    he took many captives
    and gave gifts to his people.”
    9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that
    he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
    10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
    higher than all the heavens, in order to
    fill the whole universe.)
     
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