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The Revlation of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jan 18, 2003.

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  1. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Deafpostrib,

    Respect?

    What happened to "your respect" for Ruckman? What happened to the admonition of Paul against busybodies who are involved in talebearing, slander, tattlers, speaking things which they ought not, corrupt communication, evil speaking, malice,variance, and strife which are all forbidden and are works of the flesh.

    Why you ole two faced hypocrite. Don't you dare say anything in judgment of another Christian, while telling another Christian to be nice and respect your opinions.

    I haven't criticized ANY Christian, personally, as YOU. I have posted verses which REFUTE false doctrines which other professing Christians believe.

    I've never said anything about eschatology affecting anyone's salvation, so don't even bring that up. You are foolish to do so.

    I don't have to RESPECT anybody's opinion concerning the Book. Jesus Christ nor Paul did! (Matt.16:21-23, 2 Tim.2:15-18)

    Ya'll boys don't like it when I put the Book in front of your faces and JUSTIFY what I believe. Look at the verses son.

    Undoubtedly YOU DIDN'T READ the last post, or IF you did, you IGNORED it, which all of you boys do. Check the verses son. They said what I said. Paul spoke the truth in love and it wasn't NICE nor did he respect their foolish beliefs.

    Me, act like a Pharisee? What a joke. Look in the mirror of the word. You are the ONE throwing stones at Ruckman. You then tell me to not act like him. I'm not. I'm acting like Paul and the Lord Jesus. I am the ONE identifying what the Bible states about what you are foolishly mistating. I gave the verses.

    It looks like both of ya'll have quit your explanations of the Book and decided to ATTACK other Christians while saying they should "respect your opinions" and "be nice" while you ATTACK them.

    Sorry, son, it don't work like that.

    Grow up and endure hardness IF you're gonna' go through the tribulation. My speech is nothing compared to that of the son of perdition.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  2. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    (James 3:13) Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

    (James 3:14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

    (James 3:15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.

    (James 3:16) For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.

    (James 3:17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

    (James 3:18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
     
  3. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Notice in Matt.4 that SATAN quotes the Scriptures, but he can't explain the Scriptures, for he does not UNDERSTAND the Scriptures. He quoted them leaving out words, GIVING the wrong teaching FROM THE VERSE in it's context, thus CONFOUNDING the truth of the Scirptures. Any false teacher can quote the Book, but they can't explain it IN IT'S PROPER CONTEXT for it takes the Holy Spirit of God to do that.


    1 Cor.2:11-16
     
  4. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    (1Co 12:3) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that Jewish Christians are members of both the church and the nation of Israel:

    "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1).

    "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).

    "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I" (2 Corinthians 11:22).

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), and we must be his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

    Note that "God... preached before the gospel unto Abraham" (Galatians 3:8); "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad" (John 8:56); "Esaias... saw his glory, and spake of him" (John 12:41); Hebrews refers to Moses "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt" (Hebrews 11:26); Paul says of Israel in the wilderness that "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4); Peter says of the OT prophets: "the Spirit of Christ which was in them" (1 Peter 1:11).

    Note that there are no longer any OT believers, for now all believers of all past ages are part of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-5), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32), for now all believers of all past ages believe in Christ's finished work on the cross (Ephesians 4:8-10; 1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6), which is our salvation (Matthew 26:28), and now all believers of all past ages are after Pentecost.

    Note that no scripture says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    Note that no one at any time can be eternally saved without believing in Jesus and his finished work on the cross: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6); "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    This is why Jesus had to bring the New Covenant to the saints who died before the cross; otherwise, their sins could never have been forgiven: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6).

    I believe that after the resurrection Christ went and preached the completion of the gospel to the former OT (now NT) believers in the bosom of Abraham (1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6), and that he led them up into heaven with him when he ascended (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-19); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6); "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

    Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    In the mid-week view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    Note that Jesus doesn't say that we'll be raptured at the abomination of desolation, but that we'll need to flee to the mountains when we see it (Matthew 24:15-16), and that the tribulation will be shortened precisely because we Christians will still be here (Matthew 24:21-31).

    Note that Paul doesn't say that we'll be raptured at the abomination of desolation, but that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Jesus.

    Note that Revelation doesn't say that we'll be raptured at the abomination of desolation, but that we Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4).

    My concern is that if some mistakenly believe that Jesus promised to rapture us at the abomination of desolation, and then he doesn't, and then month after month continues to pass by without any rapture, some may begin to wonder if the Antichrist's and Satan's claims to be more powerful than Jesus might really be true, that they've somehow thwarted the rapture. But if we go into the tribulation believing that we must wait 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation for Jesus to rapture us (Daniel 12:11-12), then we'll be prepared to endure to the very end without our faith being shaken.

    I believe "the day of Christ" and "the day of the Lord" are the same day, "the day of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), the day he comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, compare Matthew 24:29-31).
     
  6. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    More psycho babble folks joining verses, statements, terms, ideas, and questions TOGETHER thereby "confounding and confusing" the PLAIN TEACHINGS of the Bible.

    Ho hum.

    --------------------
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Jesus is God.

    Jesus said on Abraham, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." - John 8:56.

    Yes, Abraham have faith in Jesus Christ. Christ is God.

    Jesus already met Abraham with two angels before destroyed Sodom in Genesis 18.

    Jesus already met Moses at the burning tree. He told Moses, that he is "I AM" .

    Moses faith in Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor. 10:1-4 - "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did ALL eat the SAME spiritual meat; And did all drink the SAME spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that follwed them: and that ROCK was CHRIST."

    Yes, Moses and people followed Christ in the wilderness.

    Even, the congregation with Moses, they are the church of God.

    You have to read whole chapter 11 of Hebrews is talking about the hall of faith of the Old Testament saints. They were saved by the faith only, not by works. Even, Rahab, the Harlot of Jericho, herself a Gentile. She was saved by faith, not by work.

    Abraham was saved by the faith only, not by work - Romans 4:3-5. Same as we do today - Eph. 2:8-9.

    I do not agree with dispensationalism. Dispensationalism teaches different times, different plans of salvation.

    We are part of Abraham's seed.

    Galatians 3:14 - "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles THROUGH Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    We are saved by the faith through Jesus Christ, same thing as Abraham faith in Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 3:16 - "NOw to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which IS Christ."

    Many Jews faith on God, they are Abraham's seed which through Jesus Christ, same as we have faith in Christ, we are part of the seed is Christ.

    Galatians 3:26 "For ye are ALL the children of God BY faith IN Christ Jesus."

    All both OT and NT saints are children of God, because they faith IN Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nore Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are ALL ONE IN Christ Jesus."

    It tells us, both Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Christ, ALL are ONE in Jesus Christ.

    That means, all OT and NT saints are part of the Body of Christ - Church is ONE body, not divison.

    Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the Promise."

    It tells us, if a person belong to Christ's, then, a person is belong to Abraham's seed! We are part of Abraham's seed! ONE body, not divsion.

    My point is, Apostle Paul does not saying anything what will happen to the future saints after Christ will come again, because, it is ONCE for ALL are unity through Jesus Christ by Calvary.

    "Saints" of Rev. 13:7 is part of the Body of Christ- Church.


    2 Thess 2:1-8 does not saying anything about Christ's revelation(coming) will be 42 months before the destruction of Antichrist.

    You do not yet show me prove a verse saying the gathering will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE Second Advent.

    Both day of Christ and day of the Lord are same.

    Pretribulationism teaches, day of the Lord is Tribulation, day of Christ is Rapture. Does the Bible saying clearly according to their teaching? No.

    Christians at Thessalocia were rumoring about the timing of Christ's return. They were not rumoring on tribulation. Because they were already face persecutions and tribulations - 1 Thess 3:3-4.

    Day of Christ is Second Advent.

    Day of the Lord is not tribulation. Day of the Lord is Second Advent, for to judge the world.

    When Day of the Lord will occurs?

    Joel 2:31 - "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord come."

    Matt 24:29 tells us, Great Tribulation will be end by follow the cosmic will be darkened shows that the Lord is coming - Matt 24:30-31.

    2 Peter 3:12 says, "LOOKING FOR and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

    'Day of God' is same as Day of Christ, & Day of the Lord. Christ is God. Christ is God.

    1 Cor. 1:8 "Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our LORD Jesus Christ."

    Jesus is the Lord.

    Both day of the Lord and day of Christ are same.

    I want to show you one more verse.

    Rev. 16:14 "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

    'great day of God Almighty' is same as day of Christ, day of the Lord, and day of God.

    Day of the Lord is Second Advent to judge the world.

    Same as Day of Christ is Second Advent to judge the world.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  8. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking at the scriptures you quoted, and they don't conflict with my position.  I'm curious about that trumpet call though.  I don't see a trumpet associated with any of the clear rapture passages in Revelation.  It may merely be symbolic of what a trumpet call is used for and not meant to be an actual trumpet.

    In any case, I pretty much agree with you.  The pre "week" (I refuse to call it the tribulation as well) rapture is a hoax.  It's a horrible twisting of scripture that has been adopted to soothe people's nerves.  Now it is so entrenched, that to reject it is extremely difficult for anyone who is involved with any kind of organized church (that's why non-denominational is the way to go).

    I do have to call you on one thing.  The Anti-Christ will reign for his full 42 months, but the time of his persecution of God's people will be "cut short" by the rapture.  He will still reign in the doomed earth as it is destroyed by God's wrath thus filling out his 42 months.

    In support of this, observe Mathew 24:22.  Most importantly, the cutting short of the Anti-Christ's persecution preserves the "unknown day and hour" of the rapture which is lost with a strict mid "week" rapture or a strict post "week" rapture.  Of course, this is preserved with the pre "week" rapture, but then much else is lost.

    You should read about The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Rosenthal or The Rapture Question Answered Plain & Simple by Van Kampen.  I think you'll be impressed by their straightforward reading of scripture.

    You can also check out my own rantings on the topic in the following two threads if you like :)

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/34407.html
     
  9. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Oh and about 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.  My NIV says that the word used is not the same one used of the falling away of Christians from the faith.  It is a rebellion of evil (which I believe may already be occuring).  Just observe the evil on Earth today and ask yourself if it is not an outright rebellion against God.

    Under my view, which is well substantiated, the great falling away occurs because of the man of lawlessness (and the weak faith of those who fall away of course).  I believe this will be very difficult for you to refute (and not too difficult for us to show; in fact, you may have already debated about it and come to a conclsuion, I haven't read all 100 posts yet :) ).  Anyway, if one scripture seems to contradict a bunch of them, then you need to reconsider one or the other.  Usually its much easier to reconsider the one (but not always).
     
  10. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Posttrib, you need to learn about the meaning of the Greek word parousia which is used in reference to Christ's "coming".

    The parousia of a King did not merely refer to the day he arrived, but the presence of the King from the moment he arrived until he left.  It literally means presence not coming.  But since it is future tense, it probably should have been translated as "coming presence" in English rather than just coming or just presence, both of which are misleading.

    In that light, the Anti-Christ isn't necessarily destroyed the moment Christ arrives.  This preserves the unknown day and hour of Christ's return which will cut-short the persecution of the church, and yet not be tied exactly to the end of the Anti-Christ's 42 month reign.

    It's important that the rapture does not occur at the exact end of the 7 week period because then the day and hour will be known and you'll have a very difficult time swaying people to your position even though the pre-trib position is more incorrect than yours!  Better to live as if there will be no rapture and accept the looming possibility of death than to mistakenly think that Christ will remove us before it even starts!
     
  11. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Just to drive the point home :)  That passage says that he will excercise authority for 42 months.  It does not say how long he will be able to persecute Christians for, but we can assume that he will persecute any Christian he sees.  Yet as I've argued, the rapture cannot occur at the precise end of the 42 months for then the day and hour will be known.  Instead, the time of the AC's persecution will be "cut short" (Mathew 24:22) by the rapture (what else could cut it short without ending the AC's reign making it less than 42 months; of course, though there are no true believers left, there may still be many people who think of themselves as Christians.  The AC could still persecuted them I suppose).

    Some will argue that Jesus merely meant that it wouldn't be a long persecution, but he actually says "CUT short".  And as I've said, a precise post-trib rapture has a known day and hour (Mathew 24:36) (ad does a precise mid-week rapture).
     
  12. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Carlaimpinge, are you reading the old KJV?

    Every translation I read (even the KJV) says that the rapture/day of the lord will not happen until after the son of perdition is revealed.

    It does not by any means say that it will occur at the same time he is revealed.  It says "for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth..."

    The stuff in italics was filled in (not originally present in the Greek) by the KJV translators.  Anyway, it says that the "falling away" (Strong's #646, literally "standing off" or rebellion) must occur first, not that it will occur at the same time.  The revealing of the son of perdition is tacked on as another part of the first.

    My NRSV says literally "Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

    The and ties them together.  It should be understood that both the rebellion and the revelation of the son of perdition must happen before the coming presence of Jesus.  It does not indicate that the coming presence will occur the moment that the son of perdition is revealed.
     
  13. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    So what you're saying is that gentile Christian's that Paul preaches to are never referred to as servants, prophets, saints or them that fear God?

    To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7

    There's a lot more where that one came from.

    Just go to Biblegateway.com and run an NIV search for saints.

    And just a word of advice (I'm not saying you're doing this, I haven't really read enough of your responses to be able to tell), but if you want to make claims such as this, don't use the KJV and don't do it without searching electronically to see if it is true.

    Of course, the KJV refers to the Romans as those who are called to be saints as well.

    Here's one more from the NASB (which, being extremely literal, has fewer translations to the english word saints than the NIV):

    Romans 16
    Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them.  Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.  Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

    Now, you're not going to try to tell me that all those names are Jewish are you? :)

    As for 4 different Gospels... what...??

    I think you're going to have to start over from scratch here.  You're not making any sense.  I don't see anything in Luke 18 that talks about any specific gospel much less a different one (I was reading fast though).

    Your position on that is not even clear, much less substantiated.  This is about the timing of the rapture though, so we can stick with that topic if you like.
     
  14. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Job was not necessarily correct.  Certainly there are lies and mistakes spoken by the various people in the Bible.

    God merely allowed Satan to act.  That was the wrath of Satan trying to get a rise out of Job who mistakenly thought it was the wrath of God.  He had to think it was God or else the entire point of the book of Job would have been moot (that we should be subservient to God no matter what).

    The anti-christ's persecution is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan.  It is allowed by God (there can be nothing that happens that is not allowed by God unless God is not omnipotent).

     

    If you want to do really serious Bible study, you need to get a parallel Bible and especially a Greek/English interlinear NT with a concordance in the back. 

    It is not a falling away but a rebellion or standing off.  It is the rebellion of the ungodly against God.
     
  15. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    There are many immature Christians, perhaps they'll grow in time.  Until then, try not to judge us! 

    I'm by no means condoning your Catholicism though :)
     
  16. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    God does use Satan to administer wrath at times, but not against his own people!

    God does not bring his wrath against the righteous!

    He may allow them to be tested, but it is not wrath!

    Can you show us an instance where God brings His wrath against the righteous? 
     
  17. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I feel obligated to defend this since I believe in a rapture that occurs "mid" week (actually more like toward the end of the week, but not at the end.

    Basically, it's the same thing I said above.  Parousia means "presence" or "coming presence" when used in the future tense.  Thus the rapture occurs at the moment Christ's comes, and the Anti-Christ is destroyed after all of God's wrath is poured out (bowls and trumpets).
     
  18. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I object to your attitude.
     
  19. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    51 must feel old :)

    You keep calling everyone boy and son.
     
  20. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I challenge you to read Robert Van Kampen's The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple if you believe in plain teachings.  Your plain teaching, unfortunately, does not take into account all of the relevant passages, nor does it take into account the limits of imperfect English translations.
     
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