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The Revlation of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jan 18, 2003.

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  1. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    DeafPostrib,

    What is it that you want son?

    The 7th king makes a covenant with Israel. (Dan.9, 11) What kind of covenant? It is a covenant of MILITARY GOODWILL (Dan.11:23-24), which would be in allowance and accordance to BUILD a temple, or to sacrifice. Both are connected to the covenant.(Dan.8:11,9:27,11:31)
    The covenant is BROKEN. (Psalm 55, Zech. 11, Isaiah 33) It is VOIDED in the midst of the week. (Dan.9)
     
  2. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    So it's really a matter of "posties think" not anything to do with Job, if someone doesn't agree with your view then they aren't thinking.  You are missing a couple of things from the book of Job.

    I never said God did not use satan in the OT, you assumed.  I did not say that satan could act on his own without God's approval, however, in the NT it is a different story (Revelation 12).  I don't accuse God of "killing people" though.  I think OT writers often blamed God for things of nature.  Jesus taught us that the sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust.  I don't care what Job said about God's wrath, I more care about what God is trying to convey with Job, not what Job thought God was trying to convey BEFORE God corrected him.  You are coming across "puffed up", I hope you aren't offended or angry just because I don't agree with you :)

    God bless.
     
  3. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    JesusServant,

    I could care less "whether or not someone agrees with my view", posties are otherwise.

    I do care if they dispute the verses which are produced.

    The flood wasn't a NATURAL OCCURENCE.  It was the "wrath of God" as the time of TRIBULATION.  (Isaiah 54, Matt.24)

    Don't attribute your failure in UNDERSTANDING biblical truth to IGNORANCE of the writers of the OT.  God drowned them like rats. (Gen.6) 

      Quote:

    I don't care what Job said about God's wrath,

    You're right about that!  I do though. 

    Puffed up?  Nah.  I just know where the verses are which you don't care about.  See, it could just as easily be said that you are coming across as an infidel to God's words.

    Anyone who thinks the flood was a natural occurence is an infidel.  It was the direct result of God Almighty, who controls nature, and STATED his wrath would be poured out THIS WAY, THIS TIME, and would not be poured out, like that anymore!

    You forgot Noah's covenant.

    Nah, I ain't mad or offended.  I'm tickled that you don't know what you're talking about.

    Quote:

    I don't accuse God of "killing people" though.  I think OT writers often blamed God for things of nature. 

    Those statements did you in right there.  I didn't accuse him.  I stated what he did and gave the verses.

    Have a good day buddy.

    In Christ Jesus,

    Carl

     
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Again, I believe the gathering is at the destruction of the son of perdition because he is destroyed by Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8), and we are gathered at Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31), and there's no 3rd coming. We Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    Note again that Jesus doesn't say that we'll be raptured at the abomination of desolation, but that we'll need to flee to the mountains when we see it (Matthew 24:15-16), and that the tribulation will be shortened precisely because we Christians will still be here (Matthew 24:21-31).

    Note again that Paul doesn't say that we'll be raptured at the abomination of desolation, but that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Jesus.

    Note that Revelation doesn't say that we'll be raptured at the abomination of desolation, but that we Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4).

    My concern is that if some mistakenly believe that Jesus promised to rapture us at the abomination of desolation, and then he doesn't, and then month after month continues to pass by without any rapture, some may begin to wonder if the Antichrist's and Satan's claims to be more powerful than Jesus might really be true, that they've somehow thwarted the rapture. But if we go into the tribulation believing that we must wait 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation for Jesus to rapture us (Daniel 12:11-12), then we'll be prepared to endure to the very end without our faith being shaken.

    Didn't both Jesus and Paul preach the gospel of the kingdom?

    "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" (Matthew 6:33).

    "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thessalonians 2:12).

    "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

    "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    "The kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom" (Colossians 1:13).

    "I [Paul] have gone preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 20:25).

    "Paul... received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

    "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

    "That ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Thessalonians 1:5).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    And isn't the gospel of the kingdom also for the Gentiles? "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14); "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15); "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43); "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you" (Romans 10:19); "Through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" (Romans 11:11).

    Note that the apostles preached the cross and the resurrection:

    Jesus: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:46-47).

    John: "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7); "Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation 1:5); "For thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9); "Washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14); "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 12:11).

    Peter: "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12); "Through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ... his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:2-3); "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ" (1 Peter 1:18-19).

    Paul: "I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

    So do I. Isn't the gospel of grace the only gospel of Christ? "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:6-7).

    Didn't Peter preach the gospel of grace? "Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe... We believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:7, 11); "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come" (1 Peter 1:10); "This is the true grace of God wherein ye stand" (1 Peter 5:12); "Through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Peter 1:2); "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God" (1 Peter 4:10); "The God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus" (1 Peter 5:10).

    Didn't the Apostle John preach the gospel of grace? "Of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:16-17); "Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love" (2 John 1:3); "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" (Revelation 22:21).

    Didn't Jude preach the gospel of grace? "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:4).

    Didn't the writer to the Hebrews preach the gospel of grace? "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16); "For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace" (Hebrews 13:9).

    Didn't James preach the gospel of grace? "He giveth more grace" (James 4:6).

    Indeed weren't all of the apostles under great grace? "With great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all" (Acts 4:33).

    Hasn't God always given grace? "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD" (Genesis 6:8); "The LORD said unto Moses... thou hast found grace in my sight" (Exodus 33:17); "Found grace in the wilderness; even Israel" (Jeremiah 31:2); "Grace hath been shewed from the LORD our God" (Ezra 9:8); "He giveth grace" (Proverbs 3:34).

    "In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee" (Isaiah 49:8); "Receive not the grace of God in vain. For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee" (2 Corinthians 6:1-2).
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Postrib made a good point. I am 100% complete agree with him.

    The gathering together will not come till Antichrist shall be destroy at the Second Advent - 2 Thess 2:8.

    We will see abomination of desolation first - Matt 24:15-21 BEFORE Christ come to gathering us.

    We will suffer persecution under the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years - Rev. 13:5,7, & 10.

    3 1/2 years is pretty so long time before Christ come to gathering us together.

    The gospel of the kingdom is same.

    Both Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel of the kingdom.

    I read an article of Sword of the Lord. Dr. Shelton Smith, the editor of SLP warned us, about, "Hyper-Dispensationalism".

    A person who believe there are different gospels in the New Testament. We should not fellowship that that perosn who teaching error. He awares Dr. Peter Ruckman very well.

    Myself notice, Ruckman seems as hyper-dispensationalist.

    I do not believe in different gospels as you saying it. The Bible does not saying it. The Bible telling us, both Jesus and Paul preached the SAME gospel of the kingdom.

    I am not dispensationalist.

    I believe there is only ONE plan of salvation for whole ages from the beginning to the end of the world depend on FAITH of Jesus Christ, not by works.

    Abraham was saved by the faith only, not by works - Romans 4:3-5. Same with us in Eph. 2:8-9.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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    Carlaimpinge you are really hilarious you know that?

    The flood was wrath from God but it didn't fall on the righteous but God saved Noah and his family from his wrath who at the time were supposed to be the only people who did what God thought was right and everyone else was evil. This whole story supports what I'm saying about Gods wrath and how it's not appointed for the righteous.

    You are totally wrong about the book of Job. You must have flunked reading comprehension in grade school or something. What you claim is just not there, in fact everytime you have pointed out a passage that you say proves your right it has proven you wrong, and this is about anything. And why do you care more about what Job said of God than what God said of Job? I mean all these verses you say we don't care about has done nothing but prove over and over again that your wrong and don't know what your talking about. Your funny!LOL! I just love the way how nobody really has to say anything but just let you write yourself into a comedy of errors!

    Do it again!!!

     
     
  7. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Deafpostrib,

    Postrib's responses are the same "formatted" responses he publishes everywhere he goes. None of them deal with the STATEMENTS of truth.

    Just one for reference.

    Quote:

    Again, I believe the gathering is at the destruction of the son of perdition because he is destroyed by Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8),

    If you look at 2 Thess.2:8, you will FIND there is no statement as to the GATHERING being at the DESTRUCTION of the son of perdition.

    Read the verse. It's NOT a prooftext for what he SAID.

    Now I'm going to make a statement.

    The gathering is CONNECTED to the REVELATION of the son of perdition, NOT his DESTRUCTION. (2 Thess.2:2-3)

    Read it.

    That's the difference in PROOFTEXTING what you STATE, and LYING about what the verse states.

    2 Thess.2:8 does not state the gathering is AT the destruction of the son of perdition.

    Matt.24 does not state the body of Christ will see the son of perdition.

    Rev.12 does not state the body of Christ will suffer persecution under the antichrist.

    The gospel of the kingdom is not the gospel of the grace of God, for the apostles preached the gospel without KNOWING that Christ Jesus would die. (Luke 18)

    No verse stated Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom, but the verses do state he preached the gospel of the grace of God.

    It's SIMPLE to "refute" you boys. You make statements which you can't PROOFTEXT.

    That shows your ignorance about Hyperdispensationalism. EVERY hyper does not believe in water baptism. Ruckman is an independent Baptist, as I am. We aren't hypers.

    By the way, I follow the commands of the Book, not the Sword of the Lord, in telling me, who I can "fellowship" with. I go by what Paul STATES in his teachings to the body of Christ concerning fellowship. (Rom.16, 2 Tim.2, 1, 1 Thess.3, 1 Cor.5, etc)

    If you're not a dispensationalist, you're NOT a bible believer. That is a BIBLE WORD. (Eph.1,3, Col.1, 1 Cor.9) Read it.

    The imputation of righteousness to Abraham in Gen.15 dealt with the INHERITANCE of the nation of Israel. The NATION is righteous before God through imputation as every son in the body of Christ. (Rom.4, Micah 6:5, Num.23:21)

    Personally and individually, Abraham was saved by faith and works. (James 2) He OFFERED Issac. (Gen.22) That's the ACT that fulfilled the verse of Gen.15:6.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  8. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    nephilymiyr,

    Thanks. I like to be the life of the party around dead infidels.

    So you don't like the PROOFTEXT in Isaiah or Matthew which shows the wrath of God is the flood.

    It didn't FALL on Noah? Are you kidding? Son you really need some help.
    (Gen.9:15-18) It fell right on TOP of them, but they were in the ark.

    Nah, that's the course you didn't attend.

    Sorry, I've got to finish watching the Three Stooges. You're funny, but not as funny as them.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  9. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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    So now we here who disagree with you are dead infidels? Isn't that a term used by Islam? I'm starting to understand why and how you can be so blind to the meaning of the scriptures.

    Right, Noah and his family were in the ark. God saved them from his wrath. I didn't say the flood wasn't the wrath of God because the text implies that it is in Genesis and the other passages you talk about says that it is. The prooftext you say supports your view actually proves your wrong concerning Noah being under wrath from God. Sorry but it is funny how everything you use to prove your right is actually used against you. It's elementary knowledge that when the wrath of God falls on you, you lose your life. God saved Noah and his family from his wrath, they were protected from it. Likewise when the wrath of God comes upon the earth in the final days the rapture will be a type of ark. We will not be present when Gods sends his final wrath upon Satan and the evil people that will be left. Why? because the righteous are not appointed for wrath from God!
     
  10. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    nephilymiyr,

    No. Wrong infidels bud. That's a term used by Bible believers to identify those who profess to believe it, while stating their infidelity towards it through demonstrations of DEAD doctrinal application.

    Noah "went through it" while in the ark. He didn't leave town and avoid it.

    See bud, the wrath of God occurs during a PERIOD OF TIME. Matt.24 teaches that people will GO INTO the wrath, but be protected from it. (Not a rapture OUT of it.)

    Paul teaches the wrath to come, along with Matthew, John the Baptist, and Luke (his buddy) starts at the midst of the week. (Matt.3,24,Luke 3,21,17, 1 Thess.1,5) This is the day of the Lord, which the body of Christ ESCAPES. That is when the woman is in travail. (Jer.30, 1 Thess.5) His gathering is BEFORE that occurs ON the day of Christ. (2 Thess.2)

    That's a midweek rapture. He's not speaking of whose wrath it is, LIKE EVERY POSTIE, interjects into the text, but as to WHEN the wrath occurs. (the day of the Lord when the woman is in travail, ie. the great tribulation)

    Any gathering AFTER that is OUT OF the great tribulation, which is the wrath of 1 Thess.5.

    That gathering is Matt.24. That makes TWO gatherings, like the Bible teaches.

    Stumped by the Bible AGAIN, bud.

    Man, it's uncanny how you mention demonstrations of ignorance and the "DISPLAY" them so vividly.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  11. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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    I never heard any christian use the term infidel to discribe anyone but that's neither here nor there because once again you prove yourself wrong. Again none of those passages you have stated  proves your right but actually proves your wrong,LOL! Your hilarious!!!

     
     
  12. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

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    Mother Hen Hat ON:

    Quote: "I like to be the life of the party around dead infidels"
    Quote: "No, wrong infidels Bud, That's a term used by the Bible believers to identify those who profess to believe it, while stating their infidelity towards it through demonstrations of DEAD doctrinal applications."

    How is this a term used by Bible Believers?

    Infidel: NT:571 apistos (ap'-is-tos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:4103; (actively) disbelieving, i.e. without Christian faith (specially, a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing):
    KJV - that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever (-ing).
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    INFIDEL (in'-fi-del) (apistos, "unbelieving," "incredulous"): the King James Version has this word twice: "What part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" (2 Cor 6:15); "If any provide not for his own, .... is worse than an infidel" (1 Tim 5:8). In both passages the English Revised Version and the American Standard Revised Version have "unbeliever" in harmony with numerous other instances of the use of the Greek apistos. The word nowhere corresponds to the modern conception of an infidel, one who denies the existence of God, or repudiates the Christian faith; but always signifies one who has not become a believer in Christ. It was formerly so used in English, and some of the older versions have it in other passages, besides these two. It is not found in the Old Testament, but "infidelity" (incredulity) occurs in 2 Esd 7:44 (114). WILLIAM OWEN CARVER
    (from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
    Is this "Infidel" used, a special defination, or a private defination?
    It surely doesn't seem to be the same one used in the scriptures as stated to be used by Bible Believers.

    Quote: "That's the difference in PROOFTEXTING what you STATE, and....."
    Now be nice, Mother Hen Hat OFF!
    Blessings
    Ken
     
  13. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    stump,

    That's the response to his Islam statement.

    I showed "how" I used the term in the post, but let me give it to you clearly.

    Dead are those who don't hear. Let the dead bury the dead.
    Infidels are unbelieving, whether in SALVATION or PRACTICE of the faith, which covers your verses.

    A dead infidel can be any Christian, who has TURNED from the WORDS of the Book, and doesn't HEAR them. He shows no fidelity to the Book. In other words, he's an infidel, NOT lost.

    Surely you didn't think I meant that?

    I "never" accuse anyone of being LOST just because they don't AGREE with me. How silly.

    Have a good day.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  14. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Well all this chit chat has been nice, but unless anyone ADDS anything to the original post, I'll let ya'll boys argue about what you want.

    Good day.
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Carl,

    Is the saint of Rev. 13:7, part of the body of Christ?
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary 2000 years ago.

    The context of Dan. 9:24-27 is focus on ONE person is Messiah - Jesus Christ, not two persons.

    The context of Dan. 9:24-27 does not saying anything about two persons - Jesus and Antichrist.

    "Prince" is Jesus Christ

    Isa. 9:6 called Christ, "The Prince of Peace"

    'Prince' find in between Ezekiel chapter 44 to 48 - 17 times. These are talking on Messiah - Jesus Christ.

    Acts 3:15 "And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath rasied from the dead; whereof we are witness." It tells us, Jesus, the prince was killed on the cross, he was rasied from the death.

    Acts 5:31 "Him hath God exalteth with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

    Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood."

    It tells us, Jesus is our Prince.

    Jesus have so many names, yet he is only ONE God.

    Dan. 9:24 prophesied on Calvary. Jesus put the sins to end, and to make us reconciliation through the cross.

    Seventy weeks = seventy times seven means 490 weeks. I believe Daniel wrote book while he was captivity in Babylon nearly 490 years before Christ.

    490 years is away from the Calvary.

    "to finish the transgression" Christ is the person, who put them to end by the cross.

    "to make an end of sins" Christ is the person, who put sins to end by the cross.

    "to make reconciliation for iniuity" Christ is the person, who make us to reconciled through the Calvary. It already fulfilled by Calvary in Eph. 2:14-16.

    "to bring in everlasting righteousness" Christ is the person, who gave us have eternal life through salvation by the cross.

    "to seal up the vision" Christ is the authority who make the vision to seal up of the prophecies, to fulfilled it.

    "to anoint the most holy" "Christ" means to anointed. Christ is the most holy.

    So, therefore, Dan. 9:24 is talking about Jesus Christ, not Antichrist.

    Dan. 9:25 already fulfilled, that Jerusalem was rebuilt, and the walls around Jerusalem was rebuilt. Ezra and Nehemiah came to Jerusalem to rebuilt seond temple and the walls. Ezra came to Jerusalem to rebuilt second temple about 49 years after Daniel wrote. Then shortly later, Nehemiah came to Jerusalem, to rebuilt the walls. Dan. 9:25 already fulfilled.

    Dan. 9:26 already fulfilled, that Christ, the Messiah was cut off by the cross - AFTER 69 weeks means, during 70th week, he was cut off at the cross.

    "Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" It already fulfilled in year 70 A.D. Rome invaded Israel, and Jerusalem. They destroyed the building of temple already fulfilled in Matt 24:2. The sacrifices and offerings were stopped in 70 A.D.

    Does Jesus destroyed the building of the temple? Yes, he did. In John 2:19, Jesus said, "DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will rasie it up."

    Jesus said, he will destroy that building of the temple of Jerusalem, and he shall raise it up. The Jews were misunderstood, they thought Jesus was talking about to built another temple in the next 3 days. Jesus spoken of his body at the resurrection.

    We do not need the physical building of the temple, and sacrifices. Because Jesus IS the temple. We are temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16-17; and 6:19-20.

    While Jesus was on the cross, he yelled and said, "{B}IT IS FINISHED[/B]" in John 19:30.

    After Christ yield his soul up, suddenly the veil of the temple was tear down from the top to bottom- Mark 15:37-38.

    "It is finished" means, the prophecies of Jesus Christ and the Calvary at the first advent already fulfilled in the Old Testament. Also, it means, the sacrifices and offerings are no more again. It is no longer that we need offerings and sacrifices. Because Jesus is our Lamb. He put all our sins away at once - Heb. 10:10.

    Unbelieving Jews were blind, and still stubborn keeping the offerings and sacrifices for the next 40 years after the Calvary. Christ allowed Rome invaded Jerusalem to destroy the building of the temple.

    Because we do not need physical building of the temple. Jesus IS the temple. We are the temple of God. Also, we are priests, we have right to ask Christ to forgive our sins daily 24 hours.

    Dan. 9:27 tells us, Mesisah made the covenant with many - already fulfilled by Calvary in Mark 14:24 - "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

    Covenant is same with testament means promise.

    Christ already made testament with many - not just for the Jews only, but, also, WHOLE world - John 3:16.

    "In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" Jesus is the person, who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to end by the Calvary. he said, "IT IS FINISHED" He end it in the midst of the week - 3 1/2 years.

    Many Christians believe Jesus was doing the ministry for 3 1/2 years. I agree with them. Jesus was doing ministry past three passovers - John 2:13; 6:4; and 13:1. Obivously, Jesus' ministry have been past three passovers - over three years.

    Christ was cut off at the Calvary in the midst of the week - after 3 1/2 years of his ministry.

    There is no gap time between 69th and 70th week according to dispensationalism teaching.

    Dan. 9:26 tells us, Christ was cut off AFTER 69th week, obivously, he was crucified on the 70th week.

    70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary 2000 years ago.

    The Bible does not saying there will be 7 years of Tribulation period. It teaches us, it will be only 42 months, 1260 days - 3 1/2 years, NOT 7 years.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    43
    +0
    Antichrist shall be destroy at the Lord's coming - 2 Thess 2:8.

    Carl, you saying, there is no gathering in 2 Thess 2:8.

    You did not follow the rule of hermenuetic about interpreting the Bible.

    The context of 2 Thess 2:8 is with verse 1 is talking about our gathering together will be occur at the COMING of the Lord.

    There is no difference of 'coming' of 2 Thess 2:1 & 8. Both are same event.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  18. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    100
    +0
    Christian
    Deafpostrib,

    No, the saints of Rev.13 are not part of the body of Christ.

    Dan.9 is not fulfilled. The prophecy deals with the nation of Israel and Jerusalem. The nation of Israel's SINS have not been taken away, as of yet. (Rom.10-11) That's what Paul said. They will be. All of the prophets, point to it. It's at the COMING of the Lord AFTER the tribulation.

    The people of the prince detroy the city. It has not occured yet. That would make PEOPLE of Christ destroy Jerusalem, which is ridiculous.

    Israel is NOT reconciled to God. (1 Thess.2, Rom.10,11) They will be. (2 Cor.3)

    Your problem is that the NATION has not received their Messiah as of yet. They are not UNDER the NT. They are "still" under the OT. Paul makes that clear. We're dealing with a national aspect, not an individual aspect.

    No, a covenant and testament are not synonymous. A testament REQUIRES blood to be shed, while a covenant does NOT.

    The Old Testament started with Adam. (Rom.5) The Old covenant started with ISRAEL. (Ex.19) The testament is for individuals, while the covenant is for the nation of Israel. NEW COVENANT is with HOUSES of Judah and Israel, political divisions within the nation of Israel.

    You're a little slow. I've done stated there is not 7 years of tribulation.

    The last week of Daniel is still to come. THE prince of the covenant is in Dan.11, which matches the covenant made with Israel.

    Son, you better read the chapter and verse again. There is no GATHERING connected with or AT the destruction in the text.

    The gathering is in CONNECTION with the REVELATION. Look at the VERSE! 2 Thess.2:2-3.

    The revelation is NOT the destruction. The gathering is NOT the coming. GATHERING-REVELATION. COMING-DESTRUCTION.

    Those two things are 42 months apart. (Rev.13)

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  19. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

    491
    +6
    Protestant
    Quote:
    No, a covenant and testament are not synonymous. A testament REQUIRES blood to be shed, while a covenant does NOT.

    I'm not sure I could go along with this statement.
    COVENANT (Heb. berit, "cutting"). The term applied to various transactions between God and man, and man and his fellowman. In Obadiah (v. 7) it is rendered "allied." In the NT the word diatheke, "disposition" or "will" respecting a person or thing, is used; sometimes it is translated "Testament" (which see), at other times "covenant."
    (From The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

    Covenants were not only concluded with an oath (Gen 26:28; 31:53; Josh 9:15; 2 Kings 11:4), but, after an ancient custom, confirmed by slaughtering and cutting a victim into two halves between which the parties passed, to intimate that if either of them broke the covenant it would fare with him as with the slain and divided beast.

    TESTAMENT: A written document that provides for the disposition of one's personal property after death; a bequest. The word testament occurs only two times in the NKJV (2 Cor 3:14; Heb 9:16-17). In the KJV the word appears in several additional places (Matt 26:28; 2 Cor 3:6; Rev 11:19)-translated in all these cases as covenant by the NKJV.

    The word testament also refers to either of the two main divisions of the Bible: the Old Testament and the New Testament, or, more accurately, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant (2 Cor 3:14). Thus, testament is generally used to refer to the spiritual COVENANT between God and His people.
    (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

    The word diatheke, almost invariably rendered "covenant," was rendered in the King James Version "testament" in Heb 9:16-17, in the sense of a will to dispose of property after the maker's death.
    Diatheke, was the word chosen by the Septuagint translators to render the Hebrew berith, and it appears thus nearly 300 times in the Greek Old Testament in the sense of covenant, while suntheke and entolai are each used once only.
    In the New Testament diatheke is used some thirty times in a way which makes it plain that its translation must be "covenant."
    (from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

    The Covenant is called the 'new,' Heb 9:15, the 'second,' 8:7, the 'better,' 7:22. In Heb 9:16-17, the translation is much disputed. There does not seem to be any sufficient reason for departing in these verses from the word used everywhere else. The English word 'Testament' is taken from the titles prefixed to the Latin Versions."
    (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

    Blessings

    Ken
     
  20. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Doesn't the Bible speak of only one more coming of Jesus, and of only one gathering of the church up to Jesus, which will happen on only one day, the same day on which the Antichrist is destroyed? "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition... whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia)" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 8).

    In Matthew 24:36-44, isn't Jesus speaking about the rapture to us Christians, whether Jew or Gentile? Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    And note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming.

    Note that Jesus tells them: "Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). Would non-Christians be hated for Christ's name's sake?

    Again, didn't Paul did preach the gospel of the kingdom, just as Jesus did?

    "I have gone preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 20:25).

    "Paul... received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

    "That ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Thessalonians 1:5).

    "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thessalonians 2:12).

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom" (Colossians 1:13).

    "The kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

    "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    Jesus: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

    Jesus: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" (Matthew 6:33).

    Is there any verse that you feel would require that the day of the Lord be the entire tribulation?

    I believe the day of the Lord will begin at the 2nd coming, and is the day we wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), watch for (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), and will rejoice in (2 Corinthians 1:14).

    How can 1 Thessalonians 5:3 be referring to Jeremiah 30:6-7 when the first says "they shall not escape" and the 2nd says "he shall be saved out of it"?

    Must 1 Thessalonians 5:3 be referring to Jeremiah 30:6-7 simply because they both refer to a woman in travail? Must it then also be referring to Jeremiah 49:24; Jeremiah 50:43; Jeremiah 31:8; Psalm 48:6; Isaiah 13:8; Isaiah 42:14; and Galatians 4:19?

    How could we who will be in the tribulation and have "faith" (Revelation 13:10) not be in the church? "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5).

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5).
     
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