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The rest of the dead live not again

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Does the “rest of the dead”, who do not live during the 1,000 years, refer to dead at the great white throne judgement?



    revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

    Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
     
  2. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    It seems clear to me that it does.
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    do these dead who don’t live again till the completion of the 1,000 years include believers?
     
  4. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    No.
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    In order to try and answer that, those that have part in the first resurrection, do those include believers? Obviously, yes. But do those that have part in the first resurrection, also include unbelievers? I'm not meaning unblievers who become believers. Obviously, no, no unbeliever is among those who have part in the first resurrection. You would think the same logic applies when we apply it to the rest of the dead, that none of them are believers either if believers are meaning those that have part in the first resurrection.

    Here's some of what the text says about those who have part in the first resurrection. They live and reign with Christ a thousand years. They are blessed. The 2nd death has no power over them, but they shall be priests to God and Christ.

    Does the text say any of those things about the rest of the dead, that some of them are blessed, that some of them the 2nd death has no power over them, that some of them they shall be priests of God and Christ? No. So what should that be telling us about the rest of the dead? That they are going to be cast into the LOF otherwise they would have had part in the first resurrection, and would have been blessed, the 2nd death would not have had power over them.

    Speaking of the 2nd death, how could that possibly be relevant until the LOF is literally in view first? There is no LOF in view in the here and now. But the LOF is in view in Revelation 19, though. But is Revelation 19 meaning chronologically before that of Revevelation 20? Some of us tend to think so, some tend to not think so.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so that would make all those that partake in first resurrection as all Believers who ever lived throughout history?
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This essentially creates 2 groups correct?

    1.) first resurrection during 1,000 years : only believers

    2.) Rest of the dead standing for judgement after 1,000 years: only non believes

    now, would group 1 be all believers throughout history, while group 2 is all non believers throughout history?
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Yes, apparently it does.


    I can't speak for other Premills since other Premills might disagree. So yes, that's pretty much what it would mean. But there is something else to factor in here. There are those in Revelation 20:8 who are obviously literally alive in the end of the millennium, and even though these are unbelievers, none of them are meaning the rest of the dead at this point, but will be meaning them once God rains fire on them down from heaven.

    The question is, where did they come from if all unbelievers are wiped out during the 2nd coming, as most Amills insist?

    For one, Zechariah 14 appears to explain where they come from. In verse 12 there is a plague in which if it happens to someone, no one could possibly remain alive in order to live another day. Yet, in verse 16 we see that not everyone of the nations which came against Jerusalem, that this plague in verse 12 was their fate. It shows them remaining alive instead. Which tells me, though they were of the nations that came against Jerusalem, in whatever sense that might be meaning, since it doesn't have to be a literal sense though it very well could be, the ones remaining they never participated in coming against Jerusalem, they just happened to be living in the nations that did.

    And since they can be punished for not complying, we know these aren't meaning any of the eternally saved. And if verse 5 involves the 2nd coming, where I myself am convinced it is, that means verse 12 is meaning post verse 5 and that verse 16-19 are meaning post verse 5 as well. This of course is using step logic rather than block logic. In my mind prophecies typically involve events that have some chronology to them. That's just the way I tend to view prophecies in general.
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Not correct; Revelation 20:4 plainly says that only the GT martyrs are resurrected at His Return.
    This confirms that the rest of the dead, does include the Christian dead thru the age. It also includes people like David; Acts 13-36, Job: Job 14:10-15, etc

    Hebrews 9:27 After death comes the Judgment. At the GWT, after the Millennium.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    "the rest of the dead" are all those not raised in the first resurrection of Rev 20:1-5. Which is all those who are subject to the 2nd death , it is those who are raised.
     
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  11. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, those of the first resurrection who have lived and reigned with Christ during this time likened to a thousand years are believers only.

    Yes, the rest of the dead are all those who are "the dead" who are called before God for the GWT Judgment.

    And yes, those of the first resurrection symbolize all believers throughout history. And the rest of the dead symbolizing all unbelievers throughout history.

    Now I have a question for you. Why does John say they lived and reigned (past tense), if the thousand years are future? Shouldn't John be saying they will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years?
     
  12. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The account is past tense because John is remembering his vision and writing it down. The past tense is concerning the vision, but the events are future events. Take another look.

    Revelation 20:4

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​
    • Judgment is future.
    • Mark of the beast is future.
    • Thousand year reign is future.
     
  13. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    John says only that they who have part in the first resurrection have no fear of the second death. He does not say the second death is imminent, only that they have no fear of it when it does come.

    And according to Rev 19 none will face the second death that is the LOF until the rider on the white horse, who is KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS, and His great army have accomplished His mission by His sharp sword that proceeds out of His mouth, that is the Word of God; the Gospel. That will be accomplished before the final trumpet sounds that time will be no longer.

    Revelation 19:19-20 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    This time that shall be no longer precedes Satan being loosed. Since the Gospel before the little season, has accomplished the purpose for which it is sent unto all the world, that is to build the Kingdom of heaven through the power of His Word and Spirit. Believers left alive on the earth during this little season will be surrounded by the minions of evil, under the power of Satan, called Gog; antichrist, and Magog; antichristian groups. But they are without success, (just as the armies of the beast of Rev 19 is also without success), because believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, (1Th 4:17) and fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours every living thing upon the face of the earth.

    Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    The similarities in Rev 19 & 20 leave little doubt they are both referring to the same battle that will come upon the earth after the Gospel has been sent out to all the world, and the Kingdom of heaven complete. This battle, referred to in Rev 16 as Armageddon. This battle has been fought since the dawn of the universal church on earth, and will culminate with this last great battle of Armageddon so called. Because while the battles of good verses evil have been fought since Christ's first advent, and even beyond, we witness this in the beginning of creation, the final battle is never fought because Christ comes the second time and destroys all evil, and death. Then the holy city, new Jerusalem, (which is being built as the Gospel is sent unto the earth) will come down to the new earth after the first heaven and earth have past away.

    Revelation 16:14-16 (KJV) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
     
  14. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    I should believe this just because you say so? Please use the Scripture to prove what you allege.

    You're assuming judgment GIVEN those seated on the thrones is the GWT Judgment. In the GWT Judgment, none mentioned there are given thrones. In fact the GWT Judgment is for "the dead" not those who have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Mark of the beast is first seen when Cain slew Abel, and God placed a mark of Satan's ownership on Cain before driving him out of His presence.

    Again you assume the thousand year reign is future. I agree it is future for whosoever will be saved in this symbolic time, likened to a thousand years. But John very clearly says of these faithful souls, "they LIVED and REIGNED" not they will live and reign.
     
  15. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    One point I neglected to make previously. If the whole is written in past tense how do we account for John saying of those in the future?

    Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The faithful souls have lived and reigned in the past tense because they lived and reigned with Christ while alive in time (likened to a thousand years). But vs. 6 says there are some who have part in the first resurrection, blessed and holy, and overcome the second death who "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." If while alive on earth one partakes of the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ, they are living and reigning with Christ in time, symbolized as a thousand years. Then after death that will not end, but instead of with physical bodies, we will be in heaven as living (spirit) souls. There we will remain until our physical bodies are resurrected and changed.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It seems that many of the visions In revelation begin with “I saw” or “I heard” in the aorist indicate active (past tense). So, to me, the most logical answer is that it would be past tense because he was writing down what he saw and heard, after the fact.

     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, this is just raising so many questions for me:

    1.) Are those that take place in the first resurrection only the “dead in Christ”? Or does this first resurrection include those who remain and are alive and change in the twinkling of an eye?

    2.) Are those that are deceived by Satan after the 1,000 years unbelievers? Or does this group include those who were resurrected in Christ?

    3.) how in the world, could unbelievers ,remaining on earth, witness Christ descend from heaven, then the dead in Christ resurrect out of the graves and not believe?

    4.) let’s say and unbeliever witnesses Christ descend and the dead rise during the Millennium, and then believes. Is their body changed to a new body? If not, are they included in with the “rest of the dead” that are raised at the GWTJ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
  18. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    I agree what John writes is what he has already seen. That doesn't mean that all that he writes is past tense. Although he does speak not only of what he saw as being past tense since he saw them, but when they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years is certainly past tense. Not only from the aspect of when he saw the vision, but past tense as to when they lived and reigned.

    We must remember he is instructed to write of things he has seen, which are, and which shall be hereafter.

    Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    DUP post
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I guess the point you are trying to make here would basically be this, correct? Revelation 20:1-6 falls under the category things which are. Revelation 20:7-15 falls under the category the things which shall be hereafter.
     
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