The replacement of the heavens and earth occur at the second coming, not AD70

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sovereigngrace

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Just so I can clarify, and make sure I'm not misunderstanding.

You believe the OT apocalyptic language of the heavens and earth being destroyed is metaphorical in regards to its "near" fulfillment, but literal in regards to "far" fulfillment, specifically the 2nd coming?


As to 2 Peter 3:5-7, he compares 2 sets of heaven and earth, 1 before the flood and 1 after the flood in which he was then living.

As to Mark 13:25, that would have been fulfilled in the 1st century as Jesus specifically states:

Mark 13:30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Can I also remind you that we are actually talking about the Greek words ouranos and mentioned in 2 Peter 3, not the Hebrew words. The ungodly world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day. There is no mention of the heavens being destroyed then. The current decaying heavens (ouranos) and earth () are not destroyed until Jesus comes.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So then you are not of the Amil position. Amil's believe the 1,000 years occur between Jesus' ascension and his 2nd coming.

So then what do you believe the 1,000 years represents?

I do not know how you have come to that conclusion. I believe the 1,000 years and Satan's little season occurs between Jesus resurrection and His second coming.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Just so I can clarify, and make sure I'm not misunderstanding.

You believe the OT apocalyptic language of the heavens and earth being destroyed is metaphorical in regards to its "near" fulfillment, but literal in regards to "far" fulfillment, specifically the 2nd coming?


Yes, I believe a lot of prophecy has this phenomenon. Near/Far fulfillment happens when a prediction takes place sometime after the announcement then a fulfilment happens again, usually expanding on the former fulfilment or including an aspect that is still waiting. In both cases the fulfilments are clearly recognisable to the era concerned, except that in the near case the tone is literal and the far appears exaggerated. In actual fact, the far portion of the prophecy is metaphorical with the first event, but it is literal in the second fulfilment.

I'll start a thread with examples if you like.
 
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DavidPT

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I do not know how you have come to that conclusion. I believe the 1,000 years occurs between Jesus resurrection and His second coming.


Assuming the thousand years occur in this age, why don't you at least agree with the texts involved? Why wouldn't you instead think the thousand years occur between Jesus' resurrection and satan's little season? Maybe that's what you ultimately mean, but the way you are putting it makes it sound like the 2nd coming happens at the end of the thousand years, as though there is no other period of time after the thousand years first?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Assuming the thousand years occur in this age, why don't you at least agree with the texts involved? Why wouldn't you instead think the thousand years occur between Jesus' resurrection and satan's little season? Maybe that's what you ultimately mean, but the way you are putting it makes it sound like the 2nd coming happens at the end of the thousand years, as though there is no other period of time after the thousand years first?

The Amil position is: the intra-Advent period covers the thousand years and Satan's little season. That is what I believe!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Assuming the thousand years occur in this age, why don't you at least agree with the texts involved? Why wouldn't you instead think the thousand years occur between Jesus' resurrection and satan's little season? Maybe that's what you ultimately mean, but the way you are putting it makes it sound like the 2nd coming happens at the end of the thousand years, as though there is no other period of time after the thousand years first?

I reworded it above to remove any ambiguity.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes, I believe a lot of prophecy has this phenomenon. Near/Far fulfillment happens when a prediction takes place sometime after the announcement then a fulfilment happens again, usually expanding on the former fulfilment or including an aspect that is still waiting. In both cases the fulfilments are clearly recognisable to the era concerned, except that in the near case the tone is literal and the far appears exaggerated. In actual fact, the far portion of the prophecy is metaphorical with the first event, but it is literal in the second fulfilment.

I'll start a thread with examples if you like.

I would be very interested in your findings. Please do!
 
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DavidPT

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The Amil position is: the intra-Advent period covers the thousand years and Satan's little season. That is what I believe!


You do at least believe the thousand years have an ending point, right? If the thousand years occurs in this age, how would we know when we are no longer in the time of the thousand years? Revelation 20 mentions satan going out to deceive the nations again, after the thousand years expire. The fact the nations are already deceived and have been deceived since there were nations in the earth, and assuming the thousand years begin and end in this age, what will it look like when satan deceives the nations again? Which then brings up another point, that being 'again'? How can there be an 'again' in this present age when he has never stopped deceiving nations in this present age to begin with?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You do at least believe the thousand years have an ending point, right? If the thousand years occurs in this age, how would we know when we are no longer in the time of the thousand years? Revelation 20 mentions satan going out to deceive the nations again, after the thousand years expire. The fact the nations are already deceived and have been deceived since there were nations in the earth, and assuming the thousand years begin and end in this age, what will it look like when satan deceives the nations again? Which then brings up another point, that being 'again'? How can there be an 'again' in this present age when he has never stopped deceiving nations in this present age to begin with?

I believe the major sign is that the restraints are taken of Satan and the beast (the antichrist system) and that the Gospel message will be subjugated throughout the world.
 
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DavidPT

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I believe the major sign is that the restraints are taken of Satan and the beast (the antichrist system) and that the Gospel message will be subjugated throughout the world.


According to Revelation 20:4, the beast (the antichrist system) you are referring to, would already be fulfilled and in the past before satan is ever released after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


What I have underlined above clearly takes place during the beast (the antichrist system) you made mention of. As can be seen in the text, this is already fulfilled before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years. The text indicates these martyrs did not not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, during the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13, this same beast (the antichrist system) you made mention of.
 
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sovereigngrace

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According to Revelation 20:4, the beast (the antichrist system) you are referring to, would already be fulfilled and in the past before satan is ever released after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


What I have underlined above clearly takes place during the beast (the antichrist system) you made mention of. As can be seen in the text, this is already fulfilled before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years. The text indicates these martyrs did not not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, during the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13, this same beast (the antichrist system) you made mention of.

No so! That approach is flawed and totally reliant upon a chronological unfolding of historic events. The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time.

The 6th recap (Rev 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. They all come under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. When Satan was banished from heaven, so where they all (1/3 of the angels went with him). When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11). They are all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic Second Coming. The abyss is a spiritual place of restraint for spirits now. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second Coming for a little season. Then comes the end! When Satan is released before the Second Coming for a little season then they all are.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.
 
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DavidPT

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No so! That approach is flawed and totally reliant upon a chronological unfolding of historic events. The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time.

The 6th recap (Rev 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. They all come under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. When Satan was banished from heaven, so where they all (1/3 of the angels went with him). When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11). They are all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic Second Coming. The abyss is a spiritual place of restraint for spirits now. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second Coming for a little season. Then comes the end! When Satan is released before the Second Coming for a little season then they all are.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.


It doesn't matter that the book of Revelation is not chronological throughout. That has zero to do with the chronology of Revelation 20. In Revelation 20 the chronology is clear. First there is the thousand years, followed by satan's little season, followed by the great white throne judgment. As to the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, that has to fit somewhere within the timeline of events. According to Revelation 20:4 it can't fit during satan's little season if it already fits before satan's little season.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak
, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Until all of this is fulfilled first, especially what I have underlined, there can not yet be any martyrs in Revelation 20:4 for refusing to worship the beast, neither his image, nor receiving his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. I would think that's just plain common sense, therefore telling us that the 42 month reign of the beast per Revelation 13 is fulfilled and already in the past before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years. Thus the 42 month reign of the beast per Revelation 13 has zero to do with satan's little season after the thousand years, obviously.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It doesn't matter that the book of Revelation is not chronological throughout. That has zero to do with the chronology of Revelation 20. In Revelation 20 the chronology is clear. First there is the thousand years, followed by satan's little season, followed by the great white throne judgment. As to the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, that has to fit somewhere within the timeline of events. According to Revelation 29:4 it can't fit during satan's little season if it already fits before satan's little season.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak
, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Until all of this is fulfilled first, especially what I have underlined, there can not yet be any martyrs in Revelation 20:4 for refusing to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. I would think that's just plain common sense, therefore telling us that the 42 month reign of the beast per Revelation 13 is fulfilled and already in the past before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years. Thus the 42 month reign of the beast per Revelation 13 has zero to do with satan's little season after the thousand years, obviously.

Who or what is the beast?
When does the beast begin in a historic sense?
 
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DavidPT

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Who or what is the beast?
When does the beast begin in a historic sense?

Why does any of that matter?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


What I have underlined above, it is plain silly to think these were martyred during a time before a beast ever rises out of the sea first, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And that one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed. Followed by another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. So on and so on.

And since none of these events can occur while satan is bound in the pit, they obviously have to occur when he is not bound in the pit. Only 2 times when satan is not bound in the pit. 1) before the thousand years. 2) after the thousand years. In order for Amil to be the correct position, all of these events I mentioned above per Revelation 13 would have to take place after the thousand years. But that is impossible according to Revelation 20:4 if it is already placing these events before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years.
 
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