The replacement of the heavens and earth occur at the second coming, not AD70

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sovereigngrace

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I do not think its probable. I think its much more probable that He returned in the first century as He promised to His apostles.

Its not "believe or do not believe", its not a dogmatic question for me.

Of course it is. It is heresy to deny it.
 
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solid_core

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Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

After giving this general spiritual counsel the Lord them points their eyes forward to two future events. The first is His climatic return, the second is their empowerment at Pentecost.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

This is the time when Jesus This is mankind and then judges mankind. This is judgment day. This is not happened before. This will happen in the future.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus here points His disciples empowerment at Pentecost. Admittedly, others argue it is talking about the Mount of Transfiguration.
Can you prove just from the text that "the Son of man coming in his kingdom" is meant to be a different event from "the Son of man coming in the glory of His Father"?

If I understand you right, you are spiritualizing the coming the Son of man to mean just the giving of the Holy Spirit in the pentecost?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Can you prove just from the text that "the Son of man coming in his kingdom" is meant to be a different event from "the Son of man coming in the glory of His Father"?

If I understand you right, you are spiritualizing the coming the Son of man to mean just the giving of the Holy Spirit in the pentecost?

I showed you why I believed it was Pentecost.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Can you prove from any official general church creed that its a heresy and that timing of the second coming is a dogmatic question?

Really? Every orthodox creed believed in a literal physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ and to a future physical resurrection of the living and the dead. Have a look at any ancient creed. Have a look at the modern orthodox creed.

It is you that is out of step with Christian orthodoxy friend, not me!
 
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solid_core

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Really? Every orthodox creed believed in a literal physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ and to a future physical resurrection of the living and the dead. Have a look at any ancient creed. Have a look at the modern orthodox creed.

It is you that is out of step with Christian orthodoxy friend, not me!
If simple and natural reading of the New Testament is stepping out of the Christian orthodoxy, then be it :) It would not be for the first time in the church history.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If simple and natural reading of the New Testament is stepping out of the Christian orthodoxy, then be it :) It would not be for the first time in the church history.

It was you that brought the creeds up. You have obviously never researched the subject or you would have never went there.
 
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sovereigngrace

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1. I do not know. I do not even know why should we need a body, when we are spiritual. We just need to leave this one.
2. This universe is capable of existing for billions of years, its not forever, but much more people can be born and saved in the future. Kind of agnostic about how long this earth will continue to sustain human life.
3. We can have perfect peace right now, it is already accessible, for sure.
4. When you die, for sure.
5. I do not know, kind of agnostic. You are asking about Revelation and Revelation is quite a difficult book.

How were the living and the dead raised and judged in AD70 when mankind outside of Israel was left unaffected (Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:1 and 1 Peter 4:4-7)?

Constantly throughout the Word of God we see that “this present evil age” is equated with suffering and pain. The age to come is depicted as an eternal rest and safety. Romans 8:16-18 explains, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Has this already happened? How and when?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (allasso), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (allasso). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Has this already happened? How and when?

Revelation 21:1-5 locates the fulfilment of this age and relates it to the new earth after the millennium: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse (katanathema): but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Has this already happened? How and when?

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?
Do you believe that sin, corruption, death and Satan continue on forever?
 
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parousia70

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So you do not believe that Jesus, is coming again literally physically and visibly in the future, as He promised?

He promised His coming would befall 1st century peoples.
Since You don’t believe he fulfilled that promise, It seems unreasonable to me for you to call into question anyone else’s beliefs about whether or not he fulfills His promises.
 
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sovereigngrace

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He promised His coming would befall 1st century peoples.
Since You don’t believe he fulfilled that promise, It seems unreasonable to me for you to call into question anyone else’s beliefs about whether or not he fulfills His promises.

Not so. Every eye must see Him. He will banish all corruption from the earth.
  1. Has "the bondage of corruption" been removed from the creature and creation?
  2. When do the living today experience the change from a living physical entity into a spiritual body? Must they die first, and their spirit be immediately translated into heaven?
  3. How were the living and the dead raised and judged in AD70 when mankind outside of Israel was left unaffected (Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:1 and 1 Peter 4:4-7)?
 
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summerville

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How were the living and the dead raised and judged in AD70 when mankind outside of Israel was left unaffected (Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:1 and 1 Peter 4:4-7)?

Constantly throughout the Word of God we see that “this present evil age” is equated with suffering and pain. The age to come is depicted as an eternal rest and safety. Romans 8:16-18 explains, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Has this already happened? How and when?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (allasso), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (allasso). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Has this already happened? How and when?

Revelation 21:1-5 locates the fulfilment of this age and relates it to the new earth after the millennium: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse (katanathema): but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Has this already happened? How and when?

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?
Do you believe that sin, corruption, death and Satan continue on forever?

The tribulation was in 70 AD not the resurrection of the dead.
 
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summerville

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I agree. What Scripture supports a future resurrection of the dead?

Spiritual or physical resurrection? Its all pretty vague considering that Jesus, Paul and all the disciples believed it would all happen within their lifetime. Even Revelation .. John's letter to the seven churches assures them that it will be soon, within a generation before they taste death.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Spiritual or physical resurrection? Its all pretty vague considering that Jesus, Paul and all the disciples believed it would all happen within their lifetime. Even Revelation .. John's letter to the seven churches assures them that it will be soon, within a generation before they taste death.

Can you provide me with scripture that describes a literal physical future resurrection of the body?
 
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claninja

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I have showed you that the first earth is not replaced with the new earth until after the millennium/Satan's little season

I agree that the new heavens and new earth occur after the millenium AND after satan's little seaosn.

You sidestep that because it forbids your reasoning.

Sidestep what? You are responding to a post directed at CG.

You are against an ongoing millennium because this would expose Full Preterism for what it is - heresy.

No, I just don't fully agree with the Amil position regarding the 1,000 years of revelation 20.

True Amil's believe the 1,000 years is the symbolic time frame between the 1st and 2nd coming's of Christ.

However, what occurs at the end of the 1,000 years, the 2nd coming? No, satan's little season

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,





 
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claninja

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The scriptures you quote have a near/far aspect to them, meaning an initial fulfillment that satisfies the prophesy in the short term, but is also precursive of a greater fulfillment to come.

Actually, the text in 2 Peter 3:5-7 is an example of this very thing. He takes a literal judgement and uses it to teach of a greater world-wide event to come.

So, although the last portion of your scriptures may be treated as metaphorical in the era that they were given, they will also fulfill literally, just as Jesus said. (cf. Mark 13:25)

Just so I can clarify, and make sure I'm not misunderstanding.

You believe the OT apocalyptic language of the heavens and earth being destroyed is metaphorical in regards to its "near" fulfillment, but literal in regards to "far" fulfillment, specifically the 2nd coming?


As to 2 Peter 3:5-7, he compares 2 sets of heaven and earth, 1 before the flood and 1 after the flood in which he was then living.

As to Mark 13:25, that would have been fulfilled in the 1st century as Jesus specifically states:

Mark 13:30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
 
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claninja

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After Satan's little season (which is also after the millennium).

So then you are not of the Amil position. Amil's believe the 1,000 years occur between Jesus' ascension and his 2nd coming.

So then what do you believe the 1,000 years represents?
 
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